Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And after $57 (darn exotics vet) I discovered my rats don't have fleas. They have lice. Can you say nasty? So she recomends treating them with poultry dust until the babies are weaned. I asked her how long I should wait after treatment before feeding them to my snake and she just kinda looked at me like I was the most evil person alive. It probably didn't help that I had 6 cute little fuzzies in there with the mom, but I wanted her to understand how little these guys are. Anyway, she's going to look up the information and call me today, but does anybody else have any experience with poultry dust?

Also after the babies are weaned she wanted to start the mom on Revolutions treatments. I tried to explain that there are always babies in my colony and she told me spaying rats can help reduce the risk of mammary tumors. Where did she miss the fact that I want them to have babies so I can feed them to my snakes? Anyway, someone else here recommeded Revolutions too, but since it's a monthly treatment wouldn't it be bad to use on feeders?

One more question and then I am done. Does anyone know if Black Knight works on fleas and lice? I looked it up at ProExotics and I left a message for them but the only info I could find is that it kills roaches, ants, mites and ticks. Before I send them that much for insecticide I want to know if it will work for me. Also would it kill spiders?

Thanks to anyone who can help. I just want these bugs gone.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
Plus the breeders
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

>>And after $57 (darn exotics vet) I discovered my rats don't have fleas. They have lice. Can you say nasty? So she recomends treating them with poultry dust until the babies are weaned. I asked her how long I should wait after treatment before feeding them to my snake and she just kinda looked at me like I was the most evil person alive. It probably didn't help that I had 6 cute little fuzzies in there with the mom, but I wanted her to understand how little these guys are. Anyway, she's going to look up the information and call me today, but does anybody else have any experience with poultry dust?

If it were me, and it has been, I would call a close vet office and say you need a can of ovitrol plus flea spray, do they have it? This works great, for tiny pups I think I would saturate a towel and rub them with it and or give them a bath. Use it on the beasties, the bedding and the cage and surrounding areas. Do it again in a week and don't feed anyone off that has been sprayed for a couple of weeks at least. This is a pain if you have them to size already. But, if they are you could just freezer them after a bath to remove the obvious lice, before spraying the colony.
UPSIDE....I have found lice far easier to get rid of than fleas.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

Thank you Sonya for the advice and for making me feel better. Sometimes it just helps to know you are not the only person out there who has had a gross problem. Anyway, my vet doesn't carry Ovitrol Plus but we talked about it. I found some online for cats/dogs but it was .20% pyrethrins and my vet only recommends .15% for rodents. I did find a spray with similar active ingredients at the pet store for rabbits that was only .06%. My vet gave me the okay and I used it for the carpet and stuff around the rats. I am not seeing any lice on any of the animals anymore, but I have some on hand in case they pop up again. The vet said a couple of weeks just to be safe as far as withdrawl time before feeding any treated rats to my snakes. Plus she says I will probably have to treat them at least once more if there are eggs that hatch. Frustrating but not as bad as it could have been.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
Plus the breeders
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

>>Thank you Sonya for the advice and for making me feel better. Sometimes it just helps to know you are not the only person out there who has had a gross problem. Anyway, my vet doesn't carry Ovitrol Plus but we talked about it. I found some online for cats/dogs but it was .20% pyrethrins and my vet only recommends .15% for rodents. I did find a spray with similar active ingredients at the pet store for rabbits that was only .06%. My vet gave me the okay and I used it for the carpet and stuff around the rats. I am not seeing any lice on any of the animals anymore, but I have some on hand in case they pop up again. The vet said a couple of weeks just to be safe as far as withdrawl time before feeding any treated rats to my snakes. Plus she says I will probably have to treat them at least once more if there are eggs that hatch. Frustrating but not as bad as it could have been.
>>-----
>>Anna
>>
>>The Zoo
>>Corns
>>1.0 Snow - Cornelius
>>1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
>>1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
>>0.1 Hypo - Nikko
>>0.1 Anery - Missy
>>0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
>>Boas
>>0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
>>Lizards
>>1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
>>Rats
>>0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
>>1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
>>1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
>>Plus the breeders
>>Cats
>>1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
>>0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
>>Horses
>>1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

I would not go out and buy it for the lice, there are alot of cheaper ways to deal with lice. If you already had it at home yes I would use it, you dont, I would not bother. Craig

nm

So heres the thing I don't get: if you didn't want to listen to your vet why did you pay for her advice?

Lets look at the facts: she went through at least 8 years of education plus continuing education each year and the mandatory research on the side to keep up with the exotic medicine. When the average vet graduates their debt is 2 times what they will make in thier first year. Most of them offer discount rates and do community outreach in attempt to help those animals who's owners cant. And according to the american veterinary medical association currently most vets are charging way below what they should. And yet clients still complain about the price amd still aren't willing to listen to the information they paid for.

I'd vote for working WITH a vet instead of undermining your relationship with them here. Don't get me wrong, some of the information that is bandied back and forth on this forum is great and discussing it with a qualified medical expert may be very beneficial to your animal's health, but I have seen some outrageously erroneous things said here that are simply not in keeping with any known sciencific studies.

If your vet isn't willing to accept (after CLEAR explanation of the fact) that rodents can be part of a feeder operation find an exotic vet who can. But realize that the safest and most effective solutions to your lice (or any other medical problem) is going to be found in consultation with a qualified veterinarian.
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Russ

>>So heres the thing I don't get: if you didn't want to listen to your vet why did you pay for her advice?
>>
>>Lets look at the facts: she went through at least 8 years of education plus continuing education each year and the mandatory research on the side to keep up with the exotic medicine.

>>I'd vote for working WITH a vet instead of undermining your relationship with them here. Don't get me wrong, some of the information that is bandied back and forth on this forum is great and discussing it with a qualified medical expert may be very beneficial to your animal's health, but I have seen some outrageously erroneous things said here that are simply not in keeping with any known sciencific studies.
>>
>>If your vet isn't willing to accept (after CLEAR explanation of the fact) that rodents can be part of a feeder operation find an exotic vet who can. But realize that the safest and most effective solutions to your lice (or any other medical problem) is going to be found in consultation with a qualified veterinarian.

All that said Russ....all the advice I gave is directly from my vet. IF the vet goes the extra mile and is willing to learn and call Cornell (where I am near) and other universities and ask etc then they are gonna help. IF they are your typically trained and schooled vet they don't know squat about rats as 'pets', let alone feeders and have even less knowledge about what treatments will harm the reptile it is fed to. I talked to a vet recently who was not my personal vet...but he treated reptiles. And he said that 99% of what vets that are in practice learn about herps is from any extra symposiums AFTER they graduated from school, and while they are practicing.....note the word...."Practicing" medicine.
And, like the old joke...."What do you call someone who graduated at the bottom of their class in medical school?"..."Doctor" Undermining a sucky vet is well worth it if better advice is found elsewhere and an animal is better off.
You said "Mandatory research" What is that? I don't think there is anything that says a vet has to take rat or reptile classes. Maybe in some states to maintain a license they need classes....but they don't HAVE TO take them in exotics. At least not around here. Talking to the former (quit seeing herps when he got tired of constantly trying to correct basic husbandry errors) herp vet I met he said that to be a reptile vet you do what you want. You find extra info, you go to classes...but no one is forcing you to.

And I gotta agree.....some of the advice on the forums is terrible. But I have not seen such advice last long before a bunch of folks correct it.

I love my vet. I love my vet. I love my vet.......
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

Sonya

Thanks for the information on what it takes to be an exotic vet -I will pass it on to my classmates here at prudue's vet school.

My real point in the response (which maybe I didn't get across to well) is not to take everything your vet says at face value and assume that the degree makes them right, BUT don't discredit what they say either. The reality is that before prescribing any medication a vet must first consider how the medication works and why it only affects the target you want it to without killing the animal (almost every medicine will act as a poison if used incorrectly). and then compare that to the specific situation of the animal on the table - what concurrent illnesses or problems are affecting it's metabolism, excretion, ability to handle stress, etc. All the client sees is 'take 2 of these and call me if anything gets worse' but there is a whole lot more to it than that.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying ask the questions here and in other forums. Go to other sorces, do your research before and after going to a vet you know you can trust. That is one of the reasons that I daily look in on the forum in addition to studing the material in my texts - to stay abreast of what is going on and what people are suggesting. but for the sake of you animals, bounce the idea off a trained professionals head before you add a poison to your little critters diet.

Oh - and Anna, if the poultry dust doesn't work, ask your vet about injectable ivermectin - it is in the same class as the active ingredient in Revolution ,selemectin, but Plumb's Handbook of Veterinary Medicine lists studies indicating that it actually is less toxic to reptiles than to rats. It has the negative of potentially interfering with neonatal development (reported in horses) but in production medicine there is an increased acceptance of risk.
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Russ

Thanks for the information on what it takes to be an exotic vet -I will pass it on to my classmates here at prudue's vet school.

>>>As I said...I don't know state to state. But here in NY, and >>>working with vets in practice...and hence, out of school >>>there are few options to become knowledgeable other >>>than 'practice'.
>>>I took a rat to a vet....newly graduated from Cornell as an >>>EXOTICS specialty vet. She didn't know that rats can and have >>>tylenol as a mild pain reliever. She took my suggestion and >>>went and looked it up.

My real point in the response (which maybe I didn't get across to well) is not to take everything your vet says at face value and assume that the degree makes them right, BUT don't discredit what they say either.

>>>I thought you came on heavier with the 'vet is right and why >>>question that' than not. Now I see more about where you are >>>coming from I can say I tend to go with all the knowledge I >>>can get ahead and after a vet visit.
>>>Dusting rats, as per my vets, is a great way to get them to >>>ingest a lot of insecticide. Ivermectin would work if very >>>precisely, individually dosed....rather impractical for even >>>a small breeding group as there may be pups and sub adults >>>involve and each animal would have to be brought in. And >>>ivermectin is a more dangerous poison than a topical spray, >>>albeit faster. Also doesn't treat the environment.

The reality is that before prescribing any medication a vet must first consider how the medication works and why it only affects the target you want it to without killing the animal (almost every medicine will act as a poison if used incorrectly). and then compare that to the specific situation of the animal on the table - what concurrent illnesses or problems are affecting it's metabolism, excretion, ability to handle stress, etc. All the client sees is 'take 2 of these and call me if anything gets worse' but there is a whole lot more to it than that.

>>>>I agree.

but for the sake of you animals, bounce the idea off a trained professionals head before you add a poison to your little critters diet.

>>>Absolutely
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

Dusting rats, as per my vets, is a great way to get them to >>>ingest a lot of insecticide. Ivermectin would work if very >>>precisely, individually dosed....rather impractical for even >>>a small breeding group as there may be pups and sub adults >>>involve and each animal would have to be brought in. And >>>ivermectin is a more dangerous poison than a topical spray, >>>albeit faster. Also doesn't treat the environment.

just out of curiosity - What 'topical spray' are you talking 'bout and where are you getting your data?
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Russ

>>just out of curiosity - What 'topical spray' are you talking 'bout and where are you getting your data?

The spray was the Ovitrol Plus mentioned in the OP for this...not this thread but the OP bug thread. The data was from my vet whom I have trusted with my animals...exotics and not for 16yrs. So, to me, it is good info.
I didn't say, 'Do this' I said, 'this is what I would do or have been advised in past situations with fine success'
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

So here’s what I don’t get…why do you think I wasn’t taking my vet’s advice? The question I asked was regarding the withdrawal time for poultry dust. I didn’t say I wasn’t going to use it. Actually I let her rub a small amount on the mom while we were there and it was extremely effective. By Friday I didn’t see one bug in the whole colony. I asked the question because withdrawal time was not information that my vet had on hand. If she had to research it, then she wasn’t immediately familiar with the topic. I do my own research as well and then we discuss what the best course of action is. That is what I consider a working relationship with a vet. I am very lucky to have an exotics vet here but her specialty is fish. You need surgery on a goldfish you call her…but she’s not as experienced with rodents or reptiles. The clinic does encourage all their vets to take special classes/seminars for all types of exotics. I see this vet because she is the one who works the late shift, which is when I can get in to see them. If she doesn’t have the information she will always research it for me, and there are multiple vets at this hospital for her to confer with as well as great techs who do computer research for her. This forum is also not the only place I would rely on for information. I understand everyone can make mistakes, but it is the one of the places I can come to for opinions from people who work with the animals everyday. Isn't that what forums are for? At least I didn't want info without seeing a vet like some many other beginners I have seen. Just like people on forums make mistakes, I have also seen experienced vets use information that is out of date when there may be a better solution. I also researched at the websites for the manufactures of poultry dust as well as a livestock forum and the MSDS for various insecticides. What I also don’t get is why you feel the need to treat me like I am stupid. As an intelligent, responsible adult I like to take an active role in my animal’s health care. If I seemed irritated at her it was due to her emotional reaction to what I plan to do with my rats, as well as what I consider an exorbitant rate. Yep, that’s right…I think that some vets rip people off because they are also in the business of making money. It’s just like when you go to the mechanic not knowing anything about the car, and they replace your engine when all you needed was an oil change. I do also know vets who charge less than they should and do a lot of charity work for the shelters that I volunteer at as well as for low-income families. Let me assure you my vet is not one of those places, but I pay the money because I respect her level of education and reputation for being a good vet. I can still whine about it because it's still a lot of money to me, and if you're going to be a vet you probably want to get used to people whining about prices because it's going to happen. I also keep myself educated well enough so I know when to ask them if a treatment or test is REALLY necessary because sometimes shockingly enough they aren’t. At least my vet will admit it when she’s asked directly. As far as her reaction to culling my litters for snake food, I will give her a chance to adjust to the news. Sometimes people need a moment. Then if she can’t handle it I will look for a vet who can.

Thank you for the information regarding ivermectin and Revolution. Ivermectin was one of the drugs I have been researching because I have heard of it being given to reptiles to treat internal parasites, and I use it to treat my horse as well. I wasn’t aware that Revolution was based on a similar ingredient, but I have been too busy to thoroughly research it. This was exactly the type of information I was looking for. I haven’t gotten a chance to discuss Revolution with my vet because she had a dog emergency come in, and it was more of a long-term solution than an immediate concern. I realize for some people injectible ivermectin wouldn’t be a good solution if they had to take a bunch of rats in to the office but if it’s a subcutaneous or intramuscular shot that my vet can give me she generally allows me to do the injections myself at home.

Anyway, I am sorry to get under your skin. The good news that my bug problem seems to be under control with the advice from my vet. We decided on a certain spray for the area around the cages and the powder seems to have killed the lice living on the rats. I will follow up with her in a couple of weeks, and then we can discuss long-term solutions. Also, I think it’s great that you are in vet school. I started working with livestock when I was a child and I have been around animals my whole life. I have had the wonderful opportunity to work with some incredible vets over the years. I live less than an hour from Davis, which is a great vet school. I even thought about it myself, but I would decided I would rather enjoy my animals in a non-professional capacity. I appreciate those of you with the determination and ambition to go through with it.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
Plus the breeders
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

Golly Anna, I am not sure if it was Russ or me that ticked you off. But sorry if it was me. I don't get why dust but if it worked what the heck. My vet did NOT like the idea of it and I trust him too. I suggested the ovitrol as it is one thing to use everywhere. has a low toxicity and worked great.

Mind that if you have pups in the cage or coming soon that often the damn bugs will mob them from nowhere.

Anyone I know that used ivermectin did it through the vet and I don't know if they didn't do the injectible but orally. Often a bigger feeder breeder will oral dose with the horse paste. To me that is a toxic reaction waiting to happen.

I don't know about Revolution for feeder rats. Something to ask. Since it is systemic I am not sure of the reaction with pups either. HOPEFULLY you won't ever need to use it again.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

I’m not mad at anyone, and I posted to you above about the Ovitrol. Life is way too short to be mad about a post online, and I’m sorry if I came off as angry. I think Russ came on too strong with his assumptions about my relationship with my vet, so I posted back to him. That wasn’t even what my original post was about. But I feel better now that I ranted. Usually those posts get typed and then deleted, but it’s a Monday. What can I say?

Ovitrol wasn’t available through my vet (all she had was the dust and Revolution) but I used a very similar product from my pet store. I also think it is a better solution than poultry powder, and since my vet didn’t object that’s what I bought. My vet didn’t seem to think the powder would hurt them any more than the spray, but the spray was gentle, made for rodents and more available to me.

According to what I know of ivermectin (because we use it on horses too) the drug affects a neurotransmitter in the brains of insects. From what I understand this is not a neurotransmitter used the brains of animals with spines. It takes as much as 20 times the normal dosage in calves to cause an overdose. I don’t know enough yet to want to use it on my rats but I am going to ask my vet for more info.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
Plus the breeders
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody