Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am glad to see photos of gravid Hog Island females (that had been mated by a Hog Island male) and mating Hog Island boas in this forum.

I wish anyone all the best with these breeding attempts.

The Hog Island boa is a very unique kind of Boa c. imperator and in my opinion it would deserve to be designated as an own subspecies. We all know that it is on the brink of demise (at least in the wild).

Let me lose some words to the Cites law: It has been signed by almost all nations all over the world. As I have been told by the German Bundesamt für Naturschutz (=German Fish- and Wildlife Service) the Cites comitte meets every couple of years in order to re-arrange the appendices of the Cites law.

There are not only animals but also plants that have to be protected. So it is a huge number of species and subspecies that the comitte has to take care of.

Since we are all boa lovers our view is directed to boa constrictors, but these animals are only a split in the whole mass of endangered animals and plants. So the boas are not much of interest for the Cites comitte.

Since Hog Island boas are not a supspecies of their own but designated as boa c. imperator they are treated like "normal" boa c. imperator even when they are almost extinct in the wild.

Therefore it is up to the private breeders to maintain these animals as they occure in the wild (or at least as similar as possible) in order to enable future boa lovers to obtain such an animal or take a look at it.

Unfortunately there is no law to prohibit crossbreeding with such an endangered animal. And THERE IS NO PUBLIC INTEREST IN THESE ANIMALS!

Let us just for a moment imagine it would not be a Hog Island boa but a Panda Bear: Only a few true specimens left in captivity and in the wild. And an owner of such a Panda Bear would not breed it to another Panda Bear but to a Grizzly because he wants to find out what's the outcome (maybe a giant bear with the pattern of a Panda?).

What would the public opinion tell this guy? I think there would occur the first stoning outside of an Islamic country!

But since it is only a Hog Island boa which the public opinion couldn't care less the owner of the boa can do what he wants oblivious to his moral obligation.

It is my objective that the newcomers don't regard this breeding policy as granted. Therefore I will not stop to denounce such breedings just as little they stop posting their kind of breeding in the forum.

Let me put it in a simple equation:

True boa X other boa posting this in the forum = negative reply from me.

So if you want me to stop my "broken record" just stop hyping such breeding policy in this forum. This should be a place for education of the people how do deal with endangered animals and not how to fool around with them.

Please use your already existing crosses for your projects. This should be sufficient. If not then you only prove that Mother Natures boas are still superior to the man-made boas.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

nothin beats good ol vinyl for sound quality.... tunrn it up.
-----

recycle your pets

much easier to ignore them than to comment on every single one.

I personally enjoy Herman's posts and will continue to read them....and agree with them.

Cheers

yes so do i.... is there something youre implying?

'turn it up' means i quite agree with him on the matter...nothing wrong with still being light hearted, weather you agree or not.

use your $0.02 to buy a sense of humor
-----

recycle your pets

pretty snappy aren't you.

But hey .02 for a sense of humour sounds fair, where do I get one?

sorry to appear snappy but your post seemed rediculous on 2 grounds, one that you missed the point, but hey we arent all that clever so fine.
two, that youre telling me how and what to post. even if i did not agree with herman, and were debating the issue, im welcome to do that, he invites opions from all angles when opening a thread like that. im on his side with Hog Island preservation, and the preservation of all locality/rare boas. however, if i wasnt, how is it your place to 'guide' me as to how to use this board?
im sure if i post something out of line a moderator will let me know.

anyways, sorry for the snap, make sure to get some change...
-----

recycle your pets

that your straying a bit. Or maybe your just bored but is this really necessary? I wasn't going to keep this silly thread going but it would bother me to think that I was misunderstood so please spare with me as I explain myself while seeking to gain wisdom from your previous post.....

"sorry to appear snappy but your post seemed rediculous on 2 grounds, one that you missed the point, but hey we arent all that clever so fine."

Fine, I missed the point. I'm not clever enough to catch your wit, my loss and my appologies. I am truly sorry for the mistake/misunderstanding on my part but was my post really rediculous? Isn't that a bit drastic? Anyhow I do think that my .02 could be used by other members so lets agree that other members could use my suggestions if they want because it no longer applies to you since we've cleared it up (now that I get the point).

"two, that youre telling me how and what to post."

Really? Thats not like me, where did I tell you how and what to post? Please cite me.

"even if i did not agree with herman, and were debating the issue, im welcome to do that, he invites opions from all angles when opening a thread like that. im on his side with Hog Island preservation, and the preservation of all locality/rare boas. however,"

Of course you are welcome to debate, we all are.

"if i wasnt, how is it your place to 'guide' me as to how to use this board?"

I give up, how is it my place to "guide" you as to how to use this board?

"im sure if i post something out of line a moderator will let me know."

They usually do.

anyways, sorry for the snap, make sure to get some change...

That wit again, funny funny

I'm sure your a great person but as far as our little thread goes your really not interesting enough to reply to, I'm shameful that I'v humoured you for this long. I will check your replies to my above questions though so that I better understand your point but then I'm moving on, care to join me?

Happy debating

you stayed up all night for that??

anyway, my only point INITIALLY was that so what if hermans a broken record, some music good, even over and over.

and you did point out to me that i should not post or even read if i didnt agree...wich is in effect, letting me know how i should use this board. i can quote you if you like. dont think i dont appreciate the option you presented me, but ill pass and post on my own merit as to what i feel appropriate. hope thats alright. were on the same team buddy, lighten up.
-----

recycle your pets

So in order to stop your "broken record" people who breed crosses, should keep them a secret and not share them with others on this forum? That doesn't sound right to me. Though they may be unworthy of keeping/breeding to you, they are still boas. Personally, I am not so specialized that I like only pure locality specific animals, but pretty much any and all boas.

On a separate note, no disrespect intended, but it isn't your place to dissuade others from posting what they want here. It's a boa forum. Not a locality forum and not a "pure" boa forum. Crosses are relevant to the topic at hand here. If the other members here tolerate your views, I think it is simple courtesy to do the same for them. Just because someone posts a picture of a cross doesn't mean you have to jump in and condemn crosses, especially not the one someone was proud enough of to show off to fellow boa enthusiasts. I personally only own one boa and it is not a cross, but I enjoy seeing the crosses others produce whenever they get the courage to show them here.

We have a saying here that if you can't say anything nice, you shouldn't say anything at all. I know you feel strongly about your views, but I'd wager anyone who has ever been here is well-acquainted with them and you don't really need to express them anytime someone wants to discuss a cross. This is not meant as an attack against you, though I do think you could make some changes in order to better respect the others here. Also, I think a drop in the tension of this whole debate would be nice, though I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Lastly, I'm no breeder and I have no numbers to support this, but I'd wager there are many many more hogg island boas in captivity than pandas. There are plenty of pure hoggs to keep and breed. Just because someone has a cross doesn't mean they will breed it and mislabel the offspring. I agree that such a practice would be wrong, but I rarely hear of it happening-I only read of people who are extremely paranoid that it will sometime. So that's what I think-I know I don't have the experience that you do, but I think I made a few valid points somewhere in there. Best of luck with all your projects.

Unfortunately, even though a breeder may sell an animal labeled properly as a hypo hog cross I'm sure the more normal appearing offspring eventually will be sold as hog island boas sometime down the road. Maybe not initially but sooner or later it may be marketed as such whether intentionally or unknowingly. I'm fairly certain this is already the case as I see many animals posted here at Kingsnake that look like they've been adulterated by Colombian influence in their markings. Take a close look and you'll see what I'm talking about. All of the crosses are going somewhere and I feel the less spectacular offspring are placed in limbo since they may not look like either original parent. I understand Herman's views and concerns as they're definitely valid. The potential is there to contaminate a relativley rare species with a mixed gene pool and someday who's to know what a "pure" hog even is?

I REALLY like the looks of the Hypo/Hogs aka "sunsets" and have a few Hogs and Hypos of my own. I can see both sides of the issue and at times I have thought that it would be cool to produce this cross. Then Herman and others remind me of the RARE beauty of this naturally occurring boas and that it would not be the right thing to do. If Herman and others did not post there so called "negative" comments then maybe others in my position would think that crossing them is totally accepted with no negative aspects or repercussions. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and many here should work on stating theirs without attacking or insulting others.
-----
Jaremy Douglas

To cite obz in his post above: "he invites opinions from all angles when opening a thread".

So does everybody here who opens a thread. If everone would act like in the saying: "If you don't have to say anything good...." then this forum would rapidly deprave to a "cheer den". Is this desirable?

Another quote (this time it's yours): "...it isn't your place to dissuade others from posting what they want here"

I think I am the wrong adressee for your line. I am the one who had been attacked for posting inconvenient things in the first place ("broken record".

And before you get me wrong: I am not ranting against the posting of crossbreeds here (they are a part of the hobby). The thing I dencounce is USING A TRUE LOCALITY SPECIFIC BOA FOR PRODUCING MORE CROSSBREEDS.

Good luck to every breeder who puts two crossbreeds together for breeding purposes. There is no harm in it. The harm has been done long ago.

Using a Hog Island boa for producing crossbreeds means doing new harm. And this is what I denounce.

And I will dencounce it regularly in order to inform the newcomers that the coin has two sides.

Otherwise they would sense such crimes against the nature as quite normal.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

>>To cite obz in his post above: "he invites opinions from all angles when opening a thread".
>>
>>So does everybody here who opens a thread. If everone would act like in the saying: "If you don't have to say anything good...." then this forum would rapidly deprave to a "cheer den". Is this desirable?

hehehehhe GO HERMAN!

-----

recycle your pets

All I can say is the honest person who tells someone else that one of their pure boas looks unattractive has my sympathies for keeping this forum from becoming a cheer den as I'm sure that won't be received well. I have yet to see anyone put down someone else's snake without having some moral opposition to its lineage. However, that is obviously what is needed if we don't want to become too cheery and compliment each other's boas just to be polite.

If i see boas i think are ugly or not spectacular...I dont post. To compliment someones boa just to be "polite" seems a little..."cheesy". I see plenty of pictures posted with NO replies at all. For those pics I assume that nobody thinks the boa is anything special, and the pic poster I'm sure, knows this.

Okay, I get your point-and by all means you and everyone else are entitled to their own opinions. And in everyday life people try to persuade others into their thinking by sharing their opinions...So, NOTHING NEW! Okay, this is what I would like to see though. Once again, I GET your arguement. Now, show me what you and others are doing to hold up your end of the deal. I don't mean, telling me you breed PURE Hog Island boas. I mean, how are you going about keeping the line pure and being absolutley sure your not inbreeding to such a degree that you will in time harm them more than help them, although your trying to do a good thing. Is there any sort of paper trail on your breedings, and offspring, making tracing bloodlines as simple as possible? If I bought a Hog Island from Gus, and then one from you, how do I know w/o a LOT of hassle that the boa I got from you isn't directly related to the one I got from Gus? Go into the classifieds right now and see how many hogs you can buy, and how many give detailed background information. The most I have ever seen is...Betty bloodline, Sears bloodline....bred back to each other how many times????? I just think you need some sort of plan, similar to SSP possibly to assure your not just fighting a losing battle regardless. Look forward to your reply, and if you don't have any of these things in place, maybe this will motivate you into action. Take care!

Paul

... thank you for the good idea to get another bloodline from Gus. I will ponder this.

You used the word "hassle" in your post. And the word "without". Let me tell you that breeding pure locality specific boas and trying to avoid inbreeding as much as possible IS THE PURE HASSLE.

I spent hours on the phone to trace back bloodlines and in 19 of 20 cases I abandoned my intention to buy the animal.

I have 4 adult Hog Island Boas from 4 different bloodlines. And the best thing is, you see it that none of them resembles another one.

And, yes I am sure that none of my Hogies is related to Gus Rentfros animals. So it is a good idea to buy another one from him. This spares me hours on the phone tracing back the lineage.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Ok here are my thoughts on the subject. What would constitute a "true" Hogg Island boa? The Cayos Cachinos islands actually consist of 13 islands otherwise know as Hogg Isle. As far as I know these islands are PROTECTED and are a biological preserve. Therefore it would be illegal to export any native wildlife. However several years ago there was a dispute that I heard from some people because I worked with some importers. They were bringing in Honduran boas which were different looking and selling them as "Hogg Island" boas. Now is where the controversy begins. Honduras is in close proximity to both Nicaragua and El Salvador both home to BCI and it would not be difficult to think that the Honduran boa would be interbred with those salvador and Nicaraguan boas in the wild which would make them BCI. The mainland Honduran boas are large average what 5-6 feet? The ONLY specimens I HAVE EVER SEEN that were from the ACTUAL Cayos Cachinos islands were around 3 feet in length as adults. Which would make sense to me since island species should be techically smaller that goes without saying. What Im saying is that I believe ALOT of the so called "Hogg Isle" boas we see in captivity are from Honduras and NOT from the actual Cayos Cachinos island making them regular BCI. Now is there a case to study the island population boas and maybe name them a seperate species from the mainland Hondurans? Maybe, but I think that is why they never got sub species status what constitutes a TRUE Cayos Cachinos Hogg Isle boa? I dont think there have ever been any studies done. And I know some of the Islands in Hogg Isle are inaccessible and never visited so how can one say they are extinct in the wild? If the islands are never visited? And never inhabited? Come on! So get to the point in case I think Daves hogg island boas is probably a Honduran boa from a certain population that has produced faded specimens and I think most of the so called hogg island boas are in fact not, but are Honduran boas imported and sold as "Hogg Islands". So what do you think of that?!!!!!!! disclaimer-I may not know what the heck I am talking about lol!

would read your post. So often people come in here and accuse others with BASELESS information and no factual evidence. I think they like to do it because of the long responses they will get. Kindof like Bad NEws is at least NEWS. And any news as long as they are talking about you is good. It is AMAZING how some people need attention. LOL Thanks for the education lesson Stuart. Good luck in your breeding projects this year. I can't wait to see all your colorful albinos again. Take Care, Jeremy Stone

....
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

we should talk sometime soon. Im going to get a motley from you one of these days!!

breeding a crossbreed boa with a lack of black color to a true locality specific boa (no matter if it is from the island or the mainland).
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

tracking devices on all species and sub-species of Boa and make sure they don't "cross breed", then your arguement may not have much validity to it either. Just because a certain population of boas may have a very limited range in the wild (for instance "mainland" Hogg Island boas or Honduran boas or whatever they are) does not mean that their range EXCLUDES other forms of that boa from entering their home range. Do you honestly think that boas in the wild come up to the "boundary" of another's locality and think to itself..."hmm...better not cross into this longicauda's area, we might accidentaly crossbreed and bring herpetoculture in the U.S. and Germany to a screetching halt!". You are so worried about keeping all boas "pure" when that cannot even be proven 100%. Futility sucks. Derek

-----
Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
longissima@excite.com

i 2nd this

I was told by 2 very reputable local breeders, (both have worked for many of the largest breeders in the nation) that What we see as Hogg island boas are a mainland group off of the coast of the Cayo de los Cachinos (sp?) and that more then likely around 70% or more of the captive specimens were at best a cross between these mainland boas and actual Hogg islands..

And what really makes me mad is when I posted this on more then 1 occasion it was ignored... Oh well...(posted this info close to a year ago, if not longer)
-----
Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

You should ONLY breed hogs to what another Hogg LOOKS like in the wild just because there are very few of them in their natural habitat (which is speculative). That is just silly. Why, so others can know what they look like down the road incase there isn't any wildtype looks that come from the wild??? You don't have "Bear" people that keep bears and come to the "Bear" forum just to save the species. You are asking All bear owners that are breeding Bears FOR NON WILD TYPE bears, that could NOT go back into the wild to ONLY breed true species?? Do you know how silly this sounds. You are talking to Hobbiest who LOVE boas and enjoy breeding them for looks. Not for CONSERVATION. I would admire your efforts if your breeding program was done STRICLTY for Conservation. But aren't you breeding TRUE Species (Ones you believe to be true) for PROFIT???? You know how hypocritical you sound Hermann??????? You are the biggest hypocrite in the forum. Not to be too mean. Now, I'll go back to enjoying my boas. I think we all could appreciate anyone Conserving a species. That is a valient effort. Go get Govt funding and release all your offspring in the wild. Then you may get some good checkmarks in here. However, you are trying to create the MOST BEAUTIFUL looking True Species and breeding them together for PROFIT Hermann. Nothing wrong with that. However, if you call out your competetion on a Moral issue, in a hypocritical non bearing way, Don't expect them not to Bark Back. Jeremy Stone

... since I have no economical interest in the U.S. market.

So please tell me why I should spend my time here if not for convincing people not to use locality boas for crossbreeding?

Again: I am not interested in the U.S. market. It is too much hassle to import animals to the U.S.

My problem is not to sell my animals but to produce as much as I can sell in Europe.

Your shot was a boomerang, Jeremy.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Herman,
Randy T. and STUART have raised some very good points with regard to the 'origin' of captive bloodlines of 'true' Hogg Island boas. I respect your enthusiasm to what you believe in and look forward to a response with substance, otherwise..your total arguement is masturbatory.

masturbatory:

Excessively self-indulgent or self-involved: “ [The play's] star... paces around his cell, smoking and snarling in a masturbatory rant” (Sam Whiting).

isnt challenging everything and standing for nothing the same egotistic masturbatory behavior you condem?

isnt doing anything self gratifying masturbatory? like buying snakes, keeping snakes, and breeding them? its not for the greater good of man is it? no, its cause you like it, cause it 'feels good'. so some people like to rub one way, some like another...

i think the main issue is honesty, what becomes of the bi-products of crossing hogs into morphs, you wont get mix morphs the whole way, youre bound to drop a large number of intergrades that will look much like one parent or the other, but just off. well not everyone can spot a pure hog or suriname vs a 50/50, so theyre sold as pure. if i could trust everyone ive never met to be honest it wouldnt be an issue. but certainly cant.

i cant speak to the purity of original hogs, but they look nothing like hondurans in my opinion.
-----

recycle your pets

A decent shot at clever.. but no substance. I was really interested to read about the 'origin' of the captive bloodlines with regard to Hogg Island boas,and really want to hear the other side if there is one. I mean truly, if what I'm reading is correct then we have no 'pure' bloodlines at all.

I don't keep them, I'm just interested as I'm sure alot of others are too.

There are different hot spots within this topic, but I would specifically like to hear more about what was said in respect to there being few if ANY Hogg Island boas in captivity.

Some have been to South America and even caught Suriname and Guyanan boas, has anyone here been to the Hogg islands? or has anybody recieved a direct imported shipment? What are we basing this true locality on?

well buddy ol pal, i believe 'HOGG' island, is right next door to 'colUMBIA' right in the middle of nowhere. i doubt any collecting of any animals has been done in either country. interesting thought though.
-----

recycle your pets

But REALLY, would somebody with more knowledge than myself and the 'factually challenged' OBZ comment?

PS. Sean, it's "recycle your pets" not your thoughts.

XXOO

touche pal. well i do have some feild collecting info for you. however not from south of american borders. i was field collecting in San Diego one day, and came across a wonderful, yet familiar redtail... well i took him with me, and to my suprise i had collected not one but DOZENS of animals... unforutunatly, all of these facinating creatures, besides the redtail, perished before nightfall... otherwise we may have more info on very interesting and apparently 'undetectable' to YOUR eyes, animal.

i think those were the last of the 'true locality' Oceanside, CA 'snake dots' known to man... unless of course you held some back? if so, let me get on that wait list!

sean
-----

recycle your pets

Let us suppose the Hog Island Boas in captivity are not from Cayos but from mainland Honduras. Does this make a difference?

According to the motto: They are just mainland boas so let's cross them.

Do you want to make a list of true locality specific boas who can be crossed. Something like that:

Surinam, Colombians, Guyanas, Peruvians, Brazilians = yes

Nebulosa and Orophias = no

And if the stock of Hog Island boas is really "infested" with some almost identical looking animals from the mainland this would not be a reason in my eyes to cross them with some kind of mutts.

Nobody knows for sure if they are "infested" with mainland boas or not. To justify crossbreeding with a plain assumption is not valid in my eyes.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

How do you know what hoggs you have are from the same place or Island exact??? So, do you only breed ones from the exact same Island?? No, you don't know. You think you may know, but you really don't. Your other answer to me was Half A@@ Hermann. You came into the US 3 to 4 years ago in Daytona trying to push what you were calling Mophisto (leopard Boas). Regardless of not weather you sell in the US or in Europe, you know the the Eurpoeans have just the same interests, and if therefore they go with the Morphs, that hurts little Hermann. Do you know how many Boas I alone exported to Europe?? That is just little pittlely dunk me. There are many other breeders that sell A TON into EUROPE. Goes to show that everyone there isn't the same thinking as you. You are NOT a conservationist. You have a business interest in the boas, and are hypocritical if you say you don't. Once again, you come in here every so often with your same old stuff just to get a rise, and to show everyone that you still "CARE". Nice try Hermann. Just so you know. I bought an Albino Argentine Columbian Cross from Pete Kahl this year. We named him Hermann. We also got a Female Argentine cross that came with him. Her name is Stoekle. I thought it was funny. I don't think you'd like that but everytime I look at Hermann and Stoekle, I get a little kick. LOL. Jeremy Stone

I am glad that you are so easy to delight you. If you scoop pleasure out of naming two crossbreeds "Herman" and "Stoekle" than I grant it to you straight from my heart.

As to the "Mephisto Boas": They are now called "Leopard Boas" and the haven't been mine but the ones from my friend Verena Knietsch. Basically I has been her broker in Daytona and it was a wonderful thing that these boas went to the U.S. instead of Europe. The people there appreciate these boas more than the people in Europe.

By the way: They are true Mexican Boa c. imperator (Sonora). Something done by Mother Nature not by Jeremy and friends.

As to the tons of boas that you and your guys export to Europe: The guys who try to sell them afterwards mostly get in trouble to obtain at least the money that they have paid in the first place.

Mutts are a niche in Europe. Nothing more. And this will remain this way.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Yes, The leopards are Sonoran Mexican Boas. Just like many of the Morphs here, like the Motley There is also a True Central American Motley completly different from the Columbian line that has been proven to pass on the pattern trait in a dominant way. The Motley I started with was collected as a sub adult from Baranquilla Columbia. That is PURE columbian, and the Arabesque, which is a COLUMBIAN Boa, is NOT a cross breed. I know the arabesque one is hard for you to see, but for the ones who have done the research and breedings, know it is NOT a cross. Many of the Morphs are Pure Blood. But that isn't my Point. My point is that you sell your boas for Profit, NOT of conservation. So, don't go out saying that everyone should "CONSERVE" and keep them pure because do you realize the damage that would be done to the wild population if some of those "PURE BRED" boas that you are breeding would do the wild if you released them??? My preferences are Honesty in what you breed, and ejoy doing what you like. All I was doing is pointing out your Hypocracies. That is it. Usually they are VERY non factual, and we all understand your point. You hate the Crosses. I'm just hear saying that there is NO Moral HIGH road on this issue for Hobbiests/Breeders/Brokers. WE ARE NOT CONSERVING THIS SPECIES. Just like the fellow that posted below. He feels he has true hoggs and is breeding them because some "Dr from this area collected them and told him, and the other one was from another Dr, or well respected person to him. How does he know that the ones he has are from the EXACT same Island and would actually meet in the wild?? He doesn't. The boudaries are HUMAN boundaries that we set. Maybe the 2 he has would be impossible to meet unless they hitched a Boat ride from a Human. What is the difference in that and a cross? None!!!!!! Really Hermman, I don't dislike you and I admire your passion. What I don't admire is your finger pointing. I have met you and you seem like a decent person that would enjoy having a beer or soda with most herp people. I don't know why you need to be soo destructive and offensive in the way you come accross. WE KNOW YOUR OPINIONS!!! Just don't put others down if they don't feel the same way. Any by the way, There is a Forum for Hybrids and Morphs. (that was for the other guy breeding his so called "PURE" hoggs). I admire him too and hope he produces some nice animals. Good for you all, but Hermann, the tone could be done with a little more tact. Thats All. Enjoy your snakes. Jeremy

Correct is: The locality breeders are conserving the species (or try their best to do it) the crossbreeders do the opposite.

To compare the breeding of two Hog Island boas whose provenance from whatsoever island is not 100 per cent determined with the crossing of a Hog Island boa with some kind of mutt is like comparing the effect of a bullet with a grenade.

And: Yes, I am not an enemy of making profit. If I ever can make profit I do it (otherwise I could not fund my collection). But profit should also be related to a certain amount of moral responsibility.

As far as profit is concerned: I would rather have no Hog Island babies than using some sexual overactive crossbreed male in order to get babies at all.

Such a breeding policy only proves the shortcomings in my eyes.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Hermann, if you released any of your boas in the wild, you'd be doing even worse damage then you already do. No more replies from me. I know where you stand on the issue. To me it is completley a hypocritcal ground. You have no moral ground to speak on the issue, but that is through my eyes. We know your eyes are easily persuaded by rumors and accusations. If you searched out the true facts, you wouldn't have much gibberish to say. Other then you believe it is good to breed a Suriname to a Surinam with in a 10 mile radias?? Or is it 11 miles??? How far do you your boudaries go?? In fact, please don't answer that question. It really is irrelevant to me who sees how silly the answer would be. Good luck in your projects Hermman. Jeremy

I don't think any sane person is contemplating reintroduction to the wild. But some people would like to preserve the limited supply in captivity. BTW, it's a Hogg Island Boa, I don't see how natural crossbreeding could occur?

>>Hermann, if you released any of your boas in the wild, you'd be doing even worse damage then you already do. No more replies from me. I know where you stand on the issue. To me it is completley a hypocritcal ground. You have no moral ground to speak on the issue, but that is through my eyes. We know your eyes are easily persuaded by rumors and accusations. If you searched out the true facts, you wouldn't have much gibberish to say. Other then you believe it is good to breed a Suriname to a Surinam with in a 10 mile radias?? Or is it 11 miles??? How far do you your boudaries go?? In fact, please don't answer that question. It really is irrelevant to me who sees how silly the answer would be. Good luck in your projects Hermman. Jeremy
-----
JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

How do you know the two hoggs you are breeding are from the EXACT same island. They all have shown to vary quite a bit. I would think you wouldn't. My point is that. I can see those who want to keep them like they would see them in the wild. Nothing wrong with that. Just be honest in what you breed and sell. You don't have to go around saying that others can't breed crosses because it HURTS THE POPULATION. When they aren't doing this for reintroduction into the wild. They are ALL for our enjoyment. If you want to Conserve endangered species to keep them pure, I'm all for that, but that isn't what Hermann is doing. He is doing it to Sell them for profit, and since soo many of his would be customers down the road prefer other things, he attacks them in this way. I think there is enough room for both the true breeders and the cross breeders, but he doesn't seem to think so. That is why he goes off every so often on the SAME old crap different day. Jeremy

Quote: " I think there is enough room for both the true breeders and the cross breeders"

I agree with you. There is enough room for enthusiasts of morphs and true locality specific boas.

But why the heck do the crossbreeders need true locality specific boas for their purposes? There are already truckloads of different morphs existing. Just use THEM for your projects and leave the true boas alone. This would be fair and there would be no friction between the two currents anymore.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Island.....Then why do people make such a BIG deal about getting "unrelated" pairs. The island probably got populated in the first place by ONE pregnant female, that came from the mainland. And even if that wasnt the case, I'm absolutely certain that tons of inbreeding would go on, and MOST of the population is related anyway. Same goes for many of the locality specific animals. There is no way to prevent them from inbreeding either. And how can someone PROVE that their animals are unrelated to eachother.....At some point, an ancestor of theirs was plucked from the wild. Whos to say that 1 snake did not father/mother the parents or grandparents....etc of these "unrelated" snakes? To go through such lengths to be "certain" of lineage seems futile to me.

I suppose we are all came from an original female. I suppose over thousands of years nature can actually produce animals that are as close to unrelated as possible. If you read a post above, "Hogg Island" is actually 18 islands. There would definitely be room for unrelated animals on that many different islands. Just my ramblings. Derek
-----
Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

Being that at least 75% of the human population can be considered legally stupid. lol

Herman I agree with you!

So many are trying to find a way around the question as to whether they should be cross breeding hogs with other bci. If somebody can say that there is no true hogg island boa than we should just do away with any locality labeling on any snake. Lets just call them mutts. I bred this mutt to this mutt and guess what I got MUTTS. I know where my hogs came from, I got part of them from Dr. K and the others are offspring of some that were imported by Mr. Fatta who was involved in precurement for a zoo(Cameron Park) in Texas. Here is a pic of my possibly gravid female that bred from the second week of September through December. BTW isn't there a forum dedicated just for hybrids.

"It is human nature to believe what one wants to believe"

Direct quote from his website. I do believe that says it all for everyone here on both sides of the issue. And God bless the good old USA for freedom of speech and freedom of worship and Freedom to believe what you would like! Everyone can have a say but lets always try to respect others no matter how we differ.

>>I am glad to see photos of gravid Hog Island females (that had been mated by a Hog Island male) and mating Hog Island boas in this forum.
>>
>>I wish anyone all the best with these breeding attempts.
>>
>>The Hog Island boa is a very unique kind of Boa c. imperator and in my opinion it would deserve to be designated as an own subspecies. We all know that it is on the brink of demise (at least in the wild).
>>
>>Let me lose some words to the Cites law: It has been signed by almost all nations all over the world. As I have been told by the German Bundesamt für Naturschutz (=German Fish- and Wildlife Service) the Cites comitte meets every couple of years in order to re-arrange the appendices of the Cites law.
>>
>>There are not only animals but also plants that have to be protected. So it is a huge number of species and subspecies that the comitte has to take care of.
>>
>>Since we are all boa lovers our view is directed to boa constrictors, but these animals are only a split in the whole mass of endangered animals and plants. So the boas are not much of interest for the Cites comitte.
>>
>>Since Hog Island boas are not a supspecies of their own but designated as boa c. imperator they are treated like "normal" boa c. imperator even when they are almost extinct in the wild.
>>
>>Therefore it is up to the private breeders to maintain these animals as they occure in the wild (or at least as similar as possible) in order to enable future boa lovers to obtain such an animal or take a look at it.
>>
>>Unfortunately there is no law to prohibit crossbreeding with such an endangered animal. And THERE IS NO PUBLIC INTEREST IN THESE ANIMALS!
>>
>>Let us just for a moment imagine it would not be a Hog Island boa but a Panda Bear: Only a few true specimens left in captivity and in the wild. And an owner of such a Panda Bear would not breed it to another Panda Bear but to a Grizzly because he wants to find out what's the outcome (maybe a giant bear with the pattern of a Panda?).
>>
>>What would the public opinion tell this guy? I think there would occur the first stoning outside of an Islamic country!
>>
>>But since it is only a Hog Island boa which the public opinion couldn't care less the owner of the boa can do what he wants oblivious to his moral obligation.
>>
>>It is my objective that the newcomers don't regard this breeding policy as granted. Therefore I will not stop to denounce such breedings just as little they stop posting their kind of breeding in the forum.
>>
>>Let me put it in a simple equation:
>>
>>True boa X other boa posting this in the forum = negative reply from me.
>>
>>So if you want me to stop my "broken record" just stop hyping such breeding policy in this forum. This should be a place for education of the people how do deal with endangered animals and not how to fool around with them.
>>
>>Please use your already existing crosses for your projects. This should be sufficient. If not then you only prove that Mother Natures boas are still superior to the man-made boas.
>>Boa constrictor
>>
>>-----
>>Beware of Commies and Mutts!
-----
JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.