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Dealing with Overfeeders (Please r ead)

lilbitlizz Jan 23, 2004 08:46 PM

Ok, so I've started working at Petco about a week ago and have been loving it. Whenever I'm asked to box up a couple mice or rats I like to find out what the customers are feeding and such. Well the other day I had a man who has a 6 foot burmese python and just got it from someone for his 11 or 12 year old son. Neither of them seemed to know much about snakes. Well they were telling me that they've been feeding it two to three rats a week! So I suggested that he back it down a bit for the digestion to have some kind of a chance to work properly and not get blocked. Well he explained that the snake liked to eat that much, even though it is starting to develop the fat rolls. I did talk them out of getting the extra rat that day.

However, today, I had my head bit off by a girl about 20 years old after I suggested not to feed her jouvenile burmese python 2 mice twice a week. I suggested instead moving to one small rat once a week or every other week. She proceeded to tell me that she knew how to take care of her snake and who her vet was. There was no convincing to be made today, so I backed away slowly and handed her a box of mice, feeling sick at my stomach for the poor snake.

Can someone please tell me if I am completely wrong in my suggestions? I don't care about the customer or what they think of me, all I care about is the well being of their pets. I want to know that I am giving the correct advice, even if the customers might not agree....

Replies (14)

meretseger Jan 23, 2004 10:18 PM

Unless they're gigantic rats, I don't think that's WAY too much food for a 6 foot burm. They grow like weeds at that size. I think the the worse problem is a 12 year old boy who has a pet snake that's going to have the ability to kill him in a year's time.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Lunar-reptiles Jan 24, 2004 05:09 AM

I also work at Petco and knowing how small the rats we get are 2-3 rats a week is not bad. As for a juvie burm, depending on size, I would have no problem feeding it two mice a week. Possibly more. The last burm I cared for was a juvie and at three months old, she was big enough for three mice a week.

The problem that I actually have with customers is getting them to buy ENOUGH food for their snakes.

I agree though that the burm is not a good pet for that guy's son. It's stupid people like that..the one's who get large snakes for kids, then the kids get hurt....that cause the legislative problems for those of us who are responsible.

When people tell me they have a burm, my first response is usually "WHY???" then "you DO realize how big it will get right?" COnsidering the last adult burm I saw was 19 feet and 250 pounds, that is enough to terrify me................

MartinWhalin1 Jan 25, 2004 12:01 AM

I'm not agreeing or diasagreeing with your advice. But I can tell you that nothing bothers me more than pet-store employees tryimng to give advice. My animals are pretty much self-sufficient but I do have to make a trip to the pet-store once in a while to get some bugs or misc. equipment that I can't find elsewhere. I just consider it rude when they try to tell me how to take care of my animals. Example: I've never been able to get pinesnakes to eat a mouse...ever. The petstore only carry"small" to large rats which at the time were much too bg. Like I said I breed my own rodents but sometimes they stop breeding for no rerason. Anyway, the petstore refused to get me pinky rats even though they admitted that they could. They kept trying to sell me mice. They said that their vet told them that all snakes eat mice. Then he called me an idiot so myself and about five other people in the store hat witnessed the exchange left and went to another petstore together. My point is, people go to petstores for pet supplies, not advice.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

lilbitlizz Jan 25, 2004 01:22 PM

I understand your point, and I take it to heart, but I just wanted to point out that I was merely making a suggestion based on research I had done. Sadly, a lot of people that I have dealt with have no experience with snakes or any kind of herp , they merely thought it'd be cool to have a snake as a pet to show off to their dorm or frat buddies. I should not have judged her as being this way merely based on her young, pierced appearance, but like I said, I care about the pets and I feel sick at my stomach to think that so many kids are not taking care of them merely because they don't know any better. That's why I've tried to offer my suggestions. : )

JLC Jan 25, 2004 01:38 PM

I have to agree with the others who've stated that unasked-for advice will be most unwelcomed, even if it is good advice. Also, there ARE lots of different methods of husbandry that people prefer, and no matter how much research one person has done, he or she will not have the definitive answer on how to take care of another person's animals.

Instead of offering specific advice like that when you fear a snake isn't being well-cared for, how about this: Have a bunch of cards printed up with the Kingsnake forum address. Hand them a card and let them know that if they are ever wanting more information about caring for their animals, or just want a like-minded community to converse with, they should check it out.

In this way, you offer them a terrific avenue of information, without offending them by implying that they are incapable of taking proper care of their critters.

Just a thought...
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

scapelli Jan 25, 2004 11:46 PM

Judy, that is a GREAT idea, figured it would take DOZENS of snakes to give someone that kind of wisdom. :]

JLC Jan 26, 2004 10:14 AM

Thanks...that was a sweet thing to say!


Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

StormyHall Jan 26, 2004 10:17 AM

I empathize with you,understanding that alot of people you deal with have little experience with reptiles but from what I've witnessed,it seems that generally those kinds of people end up walking out with reptiles they have no idea how to care for,who sold these to them?
I wonder.
I'm sorry,I don't mean to be rude but I think you need to do a little more research before dispensing your advice,I have five Burms,my largest is sixteen feet,I raised her from a baby and she has gone from eating small rats to eating a piglet this past summer,they have are quite capable metabolically to digest frequent and large meals,I have a hard time believing that a young six foot burmese python will become obese on two to three large rats a week,I would be more concerned about whether they were safely feeding this snake pre-killed or stunned rats than about it's overfeeding.
If I may recommend a few books "The Captive Husbandy of Burmese Pythons" by Phillipe De Vosjoli and "Burmese Pythons" by John Coborn as well as archived articles by Bob Clark from Reptiles Annuals and one of the best books "The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas",etc..
Anyways,what I think has become the issue here is pet store employees dispensing husbandry advice,some people need it and others don't,please make sure that the advice you dispense is sound,practical and most importantly,accurate and well researched.
I don't have a problem with your job but I do have a problem with a kid working a summer job in a pet store professing to me that they are reptile experts,the only people I recognize as true reptile experts are those authors and other herpetologists and herpetoculturists in the field who have established and proven thier expertise.
I suppose I'm a little angry after walking int he other day to a Pet-Co to see a "reptile specialist" diagnosing Metabolic Bone Disease in a juvenile iguana,only Veterinarians are qualified to diagnose and treat ailments,this scene disgusted me quite a bit,he would have sold these people some vitamins and lighting systems and probably let them walk out the door without a recommendation to see a Veterinarian,that is if I hadn't intervened.
As far as this young woman who you assumed was "overfeeding" her Burmese Pythons,because she was young,tattooed and pierced,it sounds like she knew exactly how to deal with your advice and i applaud her for it!
the septum of my nose is pierced and my right arm is tattooed in a full sleeve (and yes I'm a woman),I'm 24 but you need not assume that because of my outward appearance and age that I don't know how to deal with my snakes,I'm sorry but you couldn't possibly deal with some of the snakes I have dealt with on the little working knowledge that you have,do some reading and learn to embrace your humility,you'll learn much more listening than you will talking.
Age has nothing to do with it,I know a very advanced herpetoculturist who keeps Emerald Tree Boas and maintains self sustaining terrariums for his frog collection,if he walked into your store to buy crickets you could learn a thing or two if you would set aside your ego.
I don't mean this to be rude or an attack,I know you will probably be offended but I;m being truthful,I see this all the time,beginning keepers thinking they're advanced and dispensing advice they're not qualified and researched enough to give,just put in some time researching and you'll be able to dispense good accurate information soon enough,until then be wary of those pierced,tattooed women,there isn't much they're afraid of so you don't know just what kind of scaly beasties occupy thier homes!

StormyHall

lilbitlizz Jan 26, 2004 06:35 PM

First- I meant nothing by my comment about the piercings... I was just admitting that I was WRONG in assuming she was like all of the other kids who didn't know exactly what she was doing, so I definitely don't want you thinking I am prejudice againt anything like that. I always try to remain unbiased, and I was surprised at myself for making a judgement call based on her outward appearance, especially since most of my friends that have alternative appearances are the biggest sweathearts and among the most intelligent people I know. So you got the wrong idea about that.

Second - whoever gave out the medical advice was wrong completely, but don't take that out on all pet store employees. Whenever anyone asks me an opinion about a health problem, I state very clearly that I am no expert otherwise I'd have a DVM, so I don't even bother giving the advice.

Third - I never ever ever claimed to be an expert at ANYTHING. The whole deal about the overfeeding came from several posts I have made on these forums about feeding several prey at once to an animal when my boa refused larger ones. The general consensus warned me of the dangers of doing so that could lead to intestinal blockage due to the large amount of bones in several prey. That's why I chose to pass on that warning to others that might not have heard about it.

Finally - I DO always recommend this site for anyone buying critters from the store. That way they will always have a way to find out answers to their questions from real experts, since like I have said, I am NOT one. I merely am an intrigued and fascinated amateur herper doing everything in my power to gain as much experience as I can, even if it means being a college student working in a petstore making minimum wage just so that I can have SOME foot in the door in the animal world, as I don't have any other access at this point. Forgive me.

StormyHall Jan 27, 2004 03:22 AM

There is nothing at all wrong with your job,I went from starting off maintenancing cages in a family friend's pet store to eventually managing the place then moving onto a more advanced store that dealt with reptiles and feeders only,then from there I started maintaining a private collection of venomous snakes for a breeding facility,I emphasize that there is nothing wrong with your job,I've been where you're at now,all along I built my own collection and experience as well as research with reptiles,same as what it sounds you're doing now,now I manage my own private collection and work outside of my hobby to increase my enjoyment of herp keeping and avoid burnout (when you work with something you enjoy,that's great but sometimes it can lose it's glamour and become,well,work!.
As far as overfeeding,impactions can and do occur but they're generally rare,I have heard of such things as Guinea Pigs causing impactions supposedly because of skull mass,ducks causing impactions because of thier thick beaks,etc..I have't really witnessed or been able to find any solid research that these happen consistently,not that they can't but when and if they do,it seems few and far between.
The thing I see often with overfeeding is bloating and regurgitation,the latter usually occurring afer handling either just fed or heavily fed snake and the former when feeding an overly large prey animal.
While either can probably cause problems,they're usually capable of digesting very large,whole prey items though i don't believe in pushing as many people do with thier Burmese Pythons in order to attain large sizes quickly,this is called power feeding and should be discouraged,it contributes to obesity as well as size discrepancy between the head and body,the size can be huge like an adult but an immature animal will have the head size of a juvenile!
Anyways,I digress,as far as bloating,that seems to pose the most risk to me though i don't know if it's really "extremely dangerous" some snakes,when fed too many or too large a prey animal at a time will bloat,this is when the snake can't digest the carcass quick enough and it starts to break down and decompose naturally in the stomach,when bodies rot,they build up gas and bloat,a large lump can attain double it's mass,of course this is very uncomfortable for the snake and possibly dangerous as it increases the risk of regurgiation and maybe may make the snake ill if to an extreme.
All that gas must pass too!
Insufficient temperatures and too large a meal all result in this kind of bloating,the one bad case i saw that was attibutable to this was a Reticulated Python,the owner fed her three very large retired breeding rabbits,the snake was about eleven feet,maybe twelve,she bloated up the second day to a startling and alarming mass so that the scales were distended and she was lying on her side,breathing heavily,the next day she regurgitated and died.
I don't know for sure if that was the exact cause of deathI'm not a Vet,she could have had some other ailment leading to the regurgitation and death but my guess is,and I think a good case could be made for the overfeeding and bloating being the cause of death.
Anyways,overfeeding is just as bad as underfeeding,contributing to obesity and premature death,I still think such cases of impaction and the case mentioned above are rare.
What I meant to point out to you is for you to research a bit the healthy quantity of feedings and prey size for the animals in question,keep in mind that they are quite capable of digesting rather large meals and thier metabolic rate,of course,their capabilities will all differ according to the type of snake,age,etc..
Carry on with your research and gaining experience,please look into the books I mentioned in my earlier posts and read and get ahold of everything you can,also be skeptical of all advice you receive over the internet,you don't know me and my credentials,I don't know you and everyone else,they can talk a good game sometimes and sound convincing but always doublecheck before acting on anything and research written materials from the experienced breeders,herpetoculturists and herpetologists,there are alot of people out there with alot of good experience and knowledge that you can learn alot from so pay attention but keep in mind that there are alot of egotistical types out there who think they have it all right who can give faulty and sometimes harmful advice!

StormyHall

lilbitlizz Jan 27, 2004 08:51 AM

Thank you very much Stormy, you finally answered my questions. That's why I posted in the first place, to make sure the information I was giving out was correct, but now I see that it isn't that dangerous to feed multiple prey at once. I was either misinformed or just misunderstood the information I gathered before, so I wanted second opinions. : )

I'm doing my best to get out there though. In fact, yesterday I found out about a trip to the Everglades as a course credit to research and study herps over Spring break. I'm doinge verything in my power to get on that van to go, and I have established a good "friendship" with our herpetologists on campus and plan to get everything they know out of them! : ) Take care all!

MartinWhalin1 Feb 01, 2004 12:33 AM

Sorry it took me so long to respond, I forgot about this thread.

I see your point also. Soemtimes when I'm in a pet-store I feel the urge to give advice to the keepers. I'm glad there are some that know what they are talking about. It's just that usually pet-store employees are rude about it.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

Lunar-reptiles Jan 27, 2004 04:49 PM

I can understand alot of what is eing said here about herps and store employees but there are a few of us who know what we are doing. I have been keeping and breeding herps for several years. I have a degree in biology but I am stuck working at Petco because I can't get a job in this darn economy.

Let me tell you how I handle "herp" people who come into my store. Martin, if you were to come into my store, and tell me you needed rat pups, because your pine snake wouldn't eat mice..I might make the comment that "darn, never heard of a picky pinesnake before but you would get your rat pups (if we had any)" I would also converse with you about your snakes and breeding..Why? because I know alot but I don't know everything. I might make a few suggestions "Have you ever tried scenting mice with rats?" but for the people who actually know what they heck they are talking about, I don't tell you how to do things..... Now the kid that comes in and had a 7 foot boa and wants three mice.........he gets a lecture on proper nutrition for his snake. The guy that comes in and only feeds his nile monitor two mice every month.....He gets a lecture. Now...It's a nice lecture. I don't want to offend anybody, so I make them understand that they advice they got in the beginning was not correct. I always recommend BOOKS and websites, when they are buying critters and if they have critters and are not taking care of them.

As for the MBD thing and other illnesses. Want to know how many people call the pet store when their animal is sick? I have seen so many snakes with URI's that I can diagnose one as soon as it hit the door BUT Responsible employees (like me) say...well it appears to have MBD or a URI, He needs to see a vet. Let me get you the number to the vet that I use. He is awesome with reptiles.

The problem with most people is that they don't want to spend the money on a vet unless they have to. I can't really blame them in some ways. When my guinea pig was injured on a sunday, the first thing I did was call my friend who knows a ton about small animals. Granted if I had been told to get her to the vet asap, I would have paid the emergency fees but my friend told me what the piggie needed and what to watch for. On monday morning, I called the vet and he said not to worry, I was doing fine and he didn't think he needed to see her (But you have to understand that I have a very good relationship with my vet, he knows that I know my stuff)

MartinWhalin1 Feb 01, 2004 12:51 AM

"Martin, if you were to come into my store, and tell me you needed rat pups, because your pine snake wouldn't eat mice..I might make the comment that "darn, never heard of a picky pinesnake before but you would get your rat pups (if we had any)" I would also converse with you about your snakes and breeding..Why? because I know alot but I don't know everything. I might make a few suggestions "Have you ever tried scenting mice with rats?" ..."

That would have been great. Putting it like that is friendly and respectful. Heck, I love talking about my animals. As far as pine's being picky, mine are southerns. I don't know, it seems to me that once they get rats, they will not take a mouse at all. My frustration slowly built up because the only thing keeping me from feeding my snake (bordering on emaciation) was the pet store refusing to help. They wouldn't even put me in contact with their rat supplier. BTW, the guy I was dealing with didn't even know what a pinesnake was.

I did scent mice once and it worked...but the snake regurged the next day. I guess she really didn't like mice. My pines are still picky and will not take f/t or f/k rats. They will only take thumped and still twitching. Or live, of course.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

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