Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I consider YOU one of the experts on "Island boas" Do you know what the scale count is of a TRUE Hog Isle boa ? Or a Honderan Isle?
I've read a couple of post and got to thinking...... most all of Hogs in captivity could be crossed or another sub species of isle boa.
If ANYONE would know...I'd bet my money on you!I own other hogs. I was just wondering basically by scale count,could one be more accurate with island species ?
Take Care,
Dave

Dave,

I don't agree with the idea that almost anyone's animals (Hog is. or whatever) could be crosses or intergrades. That is the kind of prejudicial statement that can start an argument! I won't take the bait. But I would agree that some people have personal agendas that are advanced by the idea that perhaps everybody's animals are some kind of cross or mutt. Since I know you are an upright guy honestly seeking to get to the bottom of this and help everyone with these important issues (not just trying to further your own opinions) here's some good thoughts on the subject of locality. I hope this can answer some of your questions.

To begin...
Aside from the specific looks and behaviours of a Hog Is. boa, very many people have animals whose lineage is unchallenged back to imported animals. That history is the way to tell locality of origin. Remember, locality is just that 'it came from this or that place', unlike many popular morphs which arise from genetics present in an unknown percentage of the populations. In other words you can have a real Hypo boa totally unrelated (except in prehistory) to other true Hypos but only Boas from Hog island are Hog island boas. I'm sure you know this, I'm only adding it here for those people who might be confused by the seeming controversy over the issue of what is or is not a locality or Hog island boa. I say 'seeming' controversy because actually there is little or no disagreement. It is mainly when a few people seek to justify their own practices in keeping and inter-breeding Boa that any argument ensues over what is or is not a locality animal. To conclude, Hog is. boas come from Hog island and if one is outbred to an animal not of Hog is. then the issue is something other than a Hog is. boa.

This is a good question too....
An important related topic might be what do we (as a friendly community of caring and mutually supportive keepers, breeders and naturalists) call animals of seeming Hog Is. origin that have no reliable pedigree? In other words, you have a nice boa, it looks like a Hog but because of where and how it was made or purchased we can't say that it hasn't been produced from mixed parentage. Some of these boas are very pretty! and certainly they can't be ignored, have some value and a place in the hobby. I propose that proud producers of crossbreeds such as yourself should collaborate, come up with a name for these products, produce a pedigree of your own, so to speak. Then everyone can know, when acquiring one of your special animals, that their new boa is a product of your bold, pioneering efforts. I and other advocates of keeping the Hog Is. boas pure will certainly support you by acknowledging your special efforts and these crosses as a unique product! After all there are potentially many hundreds of pure Hog is. boas, but only a relative handful of your new LINE....

Back to identifying boas.....
Determining locality of a boa from overt characteristics (looks) alone is problematical and is only undertaken as a preliminary step in establishing origin.. Example: If someone offers you a small-ish dark boa with high pattern density (HPD), 26 or more heavy connected saddles (with numerous inclusions), a prominent pre-ocular cross and a relatively colorful and well-marked ventral surface as a Brazilian amarali it is likely you would question that animal's heritage, not just proclaim Whooopeee! I have found a unique short-tailed boa! That is because you and very many people know and agree that a boa with those characteristics is almost surely of northern Mexico or at least the northernmost 1/3 of the range of boa in nature, and is not of Brazil. That little story is only to make sure any reader of this page understands the one truth about locality that many times gets overlooked in these discussions, that is this... There are sets and subsets of characteristics present or lacking (to varying extent) in groups of boas that observers with even minimal experience know and agree upon. In other words, the claim that boas all look alike or no-one can tell them apart is horse-hockey. Anyone making such a claim is either in need of more close observation of the Boas or they are in denial.

So.. the only point of disagreement about determining (to a large extent) locality of the different boa groups by looks is where and how fine to draw the line. Luckily, insular boas, especially from small islands all look pretty much alike. Or, more technically, true polymorphism in Boa c. ssp. from small islands is virtually unknown. So while inbreeding and focused breeding of the Hog is. line has refined the looks of these boas, more color, less black pigment, maybe even more vigorous in captivity (get a little bigger) a boa displaying characteristics not before seen in known Hog is. boa populations has to be suspect. Yes, there is a list of characteristics (perhaps even scale counts) that can be used to preliminarily classify a specimen as a Hog is. boa, or more easily not a pure Hog is. boa. Unfortunately we have arrived at a point in the hobby where ego-centric and greedy people will use specific info such as I or other locality boa enthusiasts might supply to ID valuable insular Boa to their own ends. They will cherry pick animals from groups of non-specific Boa which seem to fit accepted descriptions (importers are doing this also) to up-sell them to unsuspecting buyers. These buyers then go breed their new boas and the whole picture gets even more confusing. So we are left with the system we have now.. looks are a start in classifying boas, lineage is the real answer.

Some keepers are uneasy with these truths, maybe they think Gus or other locality breeders are trying to set up an unfair cartel that keeps out competition by setting up unreasonable rules or conditions. Leaving aside for now subjective issues of conservation and so on I've got three specific answers to that concern..

1st.. no one says you have to play the game. Locality enthusiasts only ask that we keep the lines distinct, not that you can't have your own game if you are a Morph or crossbreed keeper.

2nd.. want to play? this is like any other sport, learn the rules get the tools, dig in and show me up! No different from the game the producers of top-dollar morphs are playing. And, from looking at the prices and availability it is cheaper and easier (and a better investment) to play in our league.

3rd.. the dang rules which seem to exclude some keepers wouldn't be needed except for a relatively few people who continue to want to play big in both games without making the investment in time and resources to do it right.

These are my very opinionated, but informed, ideas!

-----
Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

knowledgeable (can't spell)herpers/ breeders I know of. Thanks for the reply ! Can't wait to see what isle boa babies ya got for sell this year!
Thanks Again, Take Care,
Dave

... because they're chock full of sound knowledge!

And I love your Hog Islands, too. Expecting some this season?

Take care.

-Brandon
www.nosnakeban.org

Thanks Gus