Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We lost our beardie last night. He's the one that would stop eating for no apparent reason. 3 fecals= neg. 3rd visit to the vet last night. Gave 1 cc subcutaneous fluids, a shot of baytril, vit. k sub-Q, and dextrose by mouth. Recommended cut back on pedialyte and give more a/d food ( dogs/cats). Said he couldn't do bloodowrk on him because he was so small and so underweight ( had been feeding him by syringe, but wasn't gaining much weight...force feeding in the end). Said not to bathe him in a bath, but to drizzle/spray him ( the only time he drank was when his belly was in the water)..as if bathing him could hurt him. And he kept saying "well, I know with snakes they do this.... and sometimes snakes can eat too large of a meal and then not eat for a while. But my feeling is, "BUT THIS ISN'T A SNAKE! IT'S A BABY LIZARD THAT NEEDS TO EAT A LOT OF CRIX EVERY DAY" Baytril OK to give subQ ?? Wasn't blocked...pooped while at the vet. Partially prolapsed while defecating, but vet said it was due to his undernurishment and that it was ok because it did retract on its own. Anyone know if beardies can get autoimmune diseases? I just don't understand! Vet said I was doing everything right and all that I could do. Anyone else have a beardie that does/did this "anorexia" thing? Eating well one day, then "bam", not eating the next. Seemed a little on the small side in the beginning...runt?????
Sad and confused!!!!!

Your vet doesn't sound very knowledgeable about lizards and bearded dragons. A second opinion never hurts.

It is feasible that the dragon is too small to get blood work done, it's hard to get enough blood out of an animal that is so small it doesn't have enough blood in it to get out and ensure the animal survives. I am sure you don't want him to bleed him dry to do blood work.

There could be several things wrong that are hard to tell without bloodwork being done, though I am no expert. I do beleive dragons can get an auto-immune system disease but it's rare. Adrenevirus is a more common ailment that will cause death not to mention being quite contageous.

I am sorry for your loss but I suggest finding a reptile vet who is qualifed with lizards and bearded dragons and get a necropsy done on the body, this way the cause of death can be determined. Testing for Adrenovirus requires a special procedure...CheriS has the name and contact information on this vet, if I recall correctly. A search on the forum here using Adrenovirus should bring up more information about this disease.

Baytril is sort of ok sub-Q but people have told me it can cause problems at the injection site. I've injected it in some of my animals without any ill effects.
-----
"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

You can give baytril SQ in other species, but it can cause iritation at the injection site. I think the bigger issue is uptake of the drug. Reptiles have a difficult time metabolizing SQ medications and especially an underweight, poorly fairing dragon. The preferred route is IM (intramuscular) but I imagine your baby may not have had enough available muscle to inject into and that is why your vet rec. subcutaneous injections. I think I would look for a vet with more lizard experience, but there may have not been anything else he or you could have done. I think it is excellent advice to get a necropsy done and rule out adenovirus. So sorry or your loss.
-----
Stacey

how old was he? How long was he and did he do this before or all of a sudden was eating then just lost interest in food and became lethargic? Is this the only beardie you have? Also were there any other signs such as dizziness, darkening around the throat and head area after death, rolling onto his back while in the bath or trying to climb, losing grip while climbing and falling? All these are symptoms of adenovirus. Sorry for your loss. (oh and yeah I think your vet sucks)

Regards,
Robert

Pet Store!! Never again!!! Not going to get another right now. We're going to be moving in a few months, so we'll probably get another this summer...easier to ship when it's nice and warm, too. I have found a vet that speacializes in reptiles. Problem is that he's 45 minutes away and it's below 0 most days!! Where we're moving to, we'll be much closer to the herp vet.

the partial prolaspe could have been a sign of a gram negative infection and that will not show up on a normal fecal.

All the other symptoms you describe also indicate a possible gram negative bacteria infection in the digestive or cloacal region.

Gram negative bacteria are usually the second most common problems to look at with animals that stop eating, become lethergic and fail to thrive besides parasites or worms and the same fecal will not detect them.

Many times to only sign that you see is cloacal prolapse or partial prolapse that does return itself. But still, your vet did do the steps that could have addressed that with the antibiotics and fluids, perhaps it had affected him to long to help at that point.

If your dragon is not thriving well and you know it has a clean normal fecal, in the future ask them to do a gram stain. Its best if they can get a swab inside the cloacal area, but then can show up on a direct stain also, just harder to spot.

If the dragon is straining, and producing mucus when he does, this is a good sample to get a stain or culture on. Many vets will just go ahead with antibiotic treatment if they can not get a sample, since this can be deadly to the animal. We have seen good results with Cipro.
-----
www.reptilerooms.com

np
-----
Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

but the problem is knowing what you are seeing and if it is bad to be there. Then also some need to be grown as a culture. You also need a more powerful scope than what you use for parasites and worms

Some common found gram negative bacterias in reptiles that can be a serious problem

Providencia
Pesudomonas
Salmonella
Proteus
Klebsiella
Gardia
Aeromonas
Coli
and the whole families of Staphylococcus as gram positive

Interestingly, four of the above were found in a culture ran on crickets directly from a supplier!!!!!
-----
www.reptilerooms.com