Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My four and a half month old beardie only wants to eat once a day. I give him salad and crickets in the morning (usually 3-4 hours after his lights come on) and he all but ignores it. He will MAYBE eat 4 crickets, then at night he gets wild running all over the cage and when I feed him he'll eat 20-30 crickets rapid fire and some greens (not a lot of greens or pellets yet). He has gained 25 grams and 1 1/4 inches since I got him a month and a half ago. It just seems like the growth is too slow. He is 12 1/4" long and 80 grams. Seems like he should be over 100 grams by now. He has had a fecal and was negative for any parasites. He is very active and I bathe him every other day (he loves to swim). His basking temp is 107-110 and the ambient temp is 85-90. He has a T-Rex MVB and a Repti-Sun 5.0 bulb, I supplement CA w/D3 twice a week, CaCO3 all other days, and vitamins once a week.

Does this seem like normal growth? I would like him to eat twice a day, but he does not seem interested. Sorry so long but, this is my first baby and I am concerned he is not growing fast enough. Thank you in advance for any advice or comments.
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Stacey

FYI, at 3.5 mos my guy was 55grams and at 5 mos(kinda failed to monitor for about a month and a half) he was at 197g and now, at 7 mos he's at 350g. Basically, what I'm trying to say is maybe he's a slow starter. As you can see my Buster basically tripled his weight in a month and a half.

Also, I'm assuming you're gutloading the crix and you might want to try and feed him his first meal two hrs after his lights come on. I don't know if or even why that might make a difference but it might be worth a shot . Heck, maybe he's getting past hungry time in the am and doesn't get much of an appetite until later.

Good luck!!
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Rob

He has a T-Rex MVB and a Repti-Sun 5.0 bulb, I supplement CA w/D3 twice a week, CaCO3 all other days, and vitamins once a week.
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www.reptilerooms.com

unless he lives outdoors, I would use d3 daily or the calcium supliments won't work properly.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

getting pleanty of UVB and well making enough pre D3 himself to absorb ALL the calcium from food and supplements(both with more D3 and without D3) it is taking in which is given DAILY?

This I would think is a formula for Calcium overdosing which can be harmful, as much if not more than too little calcium.

I asked others for comments to see what you all think, Stacey already thinks my advice is questionable and I don't want her to think I am picking on her, but concerned for the dragon.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I don't think there is anyone who wants what is best for the Beardies more than Cheri. There are people who may not agree with her all the time, none the less she says what needs to be said and she is always there to offer advice to those that ask. (thanks Cheri) UV and D3 is probably the most hotly debated topic here. (NO I DONT WANT TO START ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS.) Until there are several long term scientific studies done with lots of money behind them, I think the debate will continue.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Cheri,
I really did not think you would be that sensitive. I mildly disagreed with you about a procedure an owner neither of us knew did at home because it was on a board where others may misconstrue your words and say "Well, Cheri said it was ok." I have always held your opinions in the highest esteem and am not thin-skinned enough to think if you disagree with me that you are picking on me.

With that said I do not think I am creating a "hypercalcemic environment for a growing dragon. I frankly do not know how much I trust the UVB lights especially considering the tests that are going on currently. Also, why would it makea difference between Derek and myself because he does not use UVB lights? Do you think the beardie's body will make more D3 than it needs? And the UVB does not give the beardie calcium it allows it to make vitamin D3, so really Derek and I are supplementing the same amount of calcium carbonate. Now, I am not an expert either but humans excrete excess calcium that they take in when it is taken in the form of calcium carbonate. In my opinion it is the D3 that you need to be careful of. Hypervitaminosis D is the cause of calcium deposits in joints and soft tissues according to the literature. I have searched and do not see any references to hypercalcemia in reptiles as a result of calciium carbonate supplementation. If you have any info. to the contrary I would love to know because that is why I am on these forums to learn ways to improve my beardie's life. It really does not sound like my Ca supplemntation i too different than others with growing beardies. Of course, in reference to my original question if does sound like my beardie is growing more slowly than others his age. Any other slow starters out there?
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Stacey

Also, why would it make a difference between Derek and myself because he does not use UVB lights?

The UVB enables the dragon to make pre D3 to absord more calcium, you are giving yours that in a MVB and a 5.0 tube and supplements with D3 and addtional Calcium daily, your dragon will be absorbing far more calcium into his system.

Do you think the beardie's body will make more D3 than it needs?

No one knows that answer yet, but its not him making it from the UVB lights that was a concern, it's the additional supplements over what he is making, in both D3 and available added Calcium daily for absorbtion.

And the UVB does not give the beardie calcium it allows it to make vitamin D3,

To absorb calcium

so really Derek and I are supplementing the same amount of calcium carbonate

Again its not the calcium carbonate, its the overall daily calcium and additional supplements of Ca with D3, with the UVB and then more calcium. I thought that was a lot since he is eating crickets well that you said are dusted daily. And wanted to see what others had to say also.

Its the animals that matters to me, not you disagreeing about anything, your entitled to that opinion and it is your dragon, but please read this by a man that is considered the leading authority of reptiles:

"Iatrogenic hypercalcemia is a common disorder in reptiles and results from excessive dietary calcium and vitamin D3"

"Intoxications from oversupplementation are likely to be more common. Nutrients with the most narrow ranges of safe intake (established in other species)include calcium, selenium, vitamin A and vitamin D3"

"The most common vascular disease seen in reptiles is calcification of the tunica media of the large vessels. While the exact etiopathogenesis is unclear, there appears to be a distinct association between this condition and diets containing excessive levels of vitamin D3 and calcium"

"The mineralization is often an incidental finding during radiographic exam. Sudden death may occur should the mycardium be affected or an aneurysm develop and rupture. Treatment is typically unsuccessful"

Deposits of calcium in the vascular system do happen with too much calcium and D3.

Personally I think the amount he is eating is fine and the activity level is good from what you say. Also his eating routine and growth are fairly normal for some dragons, but I would cut back on the calcium. Too much can also effect their growth and eating, actually causing anorexic like symptoms, curves in the nail and knots on the toes, besides the signs that are not visual.

Best to you and your dragon
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www.reptilerooms.com

I appreciate the info. Who said it? You didn't have his name with the quotes. How often would you rec. supplementing calcium then?

I really did not mean to upset you by disagreeing on the other forum, but hopefully you can se how someone could take your words out of context. The skills and knowledge you have are far different from the average owner or breeder and that was my concern with the "do it at home" debate. I think we are both here for the animals and I am also here to learn more ( as I assume you are since you are in the academic community and lifelong learning is the objective)for my personal animals and my patients.
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Stacey

of Reptile Medicine and Surgery, he is also the staff vet at the Santa Ana Zoo and for Allegan Pharmaceuticals.

If you feel comfortable your lights are working, I would not be supplementing at his age and amount eating more than 2-3 times a week and the vitamins and minerals normally at that age we do once a month, but since he is not eating the greens and veggies good yet, I would do it every other week until he is.

It is a different story if you were not using the lights you are or have them close enough to work, as Grimdog said, so many people do not have them close enough or new enough and they are useless, I know you know the proper placement, and age, so I assume they are effective
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www.reptilerooms.com

I follow Dr. Mader quite closely that is actually where I got the information that the excess CaCO3 is excreted by the body and that vitamin D3 is the supplement to be much more careful with. I will make the modifications to his supplement regime. I am glad to hear that you think he is eating and growing at an acceptable rate. I am in no hurry for him to grow up, but I want to make sure he is making good progress. This is the first baby I have ever raised. My other dragon was an adult rescue and the other rescue dragons I have fostered in the past were also adults. The greens issue is frustrating, but again I am used to adults that eat primarily greens so to see so much of his greens go to waste in his bowl each day is disheartening. He is putting away a good 30 crix a day so I guess I just keep trying with the greens.
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Stacey

I personally like to give my dragons calcium (rep cal with d3) about 5 days a week if they are growing or if it is a pregnant female. I have had no issues, long term maybe but calcium is passed by the kidneys. And there are plenty of places to store it. A growing dragon (hers doesn't seem to be growing rapidly) I think needs all the calcium that it can get, well maybe not all the calcium but I tend to use it almost daily with my juvis and preggers females. And I was teasing with the title just what my experience is.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

daily certainly.

Also, and I think we all need to discuss this and compare info, my understanding is that too much calcium does not get excreted from the body, but can settle in joints, especially in the toes and be called false gout, also that it can cause blockages in the vascular system.

Meds used to lower cholesteral in humans also are calcium blockers and prevent plaque buildup in the vessels.

Prior it was though that excess D3 is excreted, but there is some new thinking and information on that also..... so I am unsure of that.

I emailed several people that are ones I respect their opinions and almost all (but one) came back with comments like "creating a Hypercalciemia enviroment" or "Hypercalciemia here we come".

So I think this is something we all should look into and think about. What is too much???

I can understand the daily Calcium when they get no UVB at all, but with two UVB Sources, one a MVB and the other a 5.0, both usually good produces and if working adequate in themselves, adding CA supplements daily just seems like a bit much.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Ok Cheri, I am not trying to fight but will share my views. Let me know what you think of them, be truthful I am a big boy . Ok so this particular dragon is getting sufficient UVB, therefor can produce enough pre vitamin D3 from natural sources. This means that if the lights are sufficient and you can be assured that they are over time then you could get away with just plain old calcium carbonate with no vitamin D3. I do not think anyone has this much faith in the reptile bulbs to just go without dietary D3. Now it is my belief as well as the beliefs of others that dragons can uptake vitamin D3 from their diets. Vitamin D3 is neccesary for a dragon to absorb calcium properly from their digestive tract. Vitamin D3 is dangerous as it is stored in fat stores of a dragon. So going over board with dietary d3 can be harmful. D3 is the active ingridient in rat poison not something to be messed with. So if a dragon is given too much d3 in its diet it is certainly dangerous, but a quick note is I have never heard of a dragon overdosing on D3 from the supplements that are used. If a dragon is getting all the vitamin d3 it needs from its diet, a point that is heavily contested, then UVB lights are useless. Time will tell on this matter. Onto hypercalciemia, it is a risk to dragons health as you mentioned it can build up in joints and also cause hardening of vascular tissue which is very dangerous and can be lethal. So too much calcium can be risky. I have personally never saw a dragon with too hypercalciemia, but I am a newbie and am not involved in the medical community. But I do believe that a dragon with normally functioning kidneys will excrete excess calcium in its urine. Calcium carbonate is broken down to Ca2 and CO3 (carbonate). Ca2 is used in many biological processes from muscle contractions to nerve impulses. It also has a role in keeping the potential accross membranes constant. Oh and of course it has a lot to do with bone structure (calcium carbonate I believe) and also in making egg shells. So the calcium that is not bound for the bones is in the form of Ca2 . This is filtered out of the system by the kidneys (at least in humans and mammals I know reptiles are different but general function of the organs are the same). The kidney filter out things like Na K Ca2 Cl- carbonates urea and other wastes and minerals. It was believed in the past that high calcium diets were the root of kidney stones, this theory has since been discounted. So as I see it there is a risk off too much calcium but this risk I believe to be small in dragons with properly functioning kidneys. As for D3 I believe that it does have a risk in high quantities but I think this risk is also small for healthy dragons if you do not go overboard. Animals that eat a diet mainly made up of whole prey items do not have an issue with too much vitamin d3 and they get loads of it from the animals it eats (in theory from their fat and liver). Just my thoughts let me know what you think. I like to hear others views on this subject, as what I write is based on my knowledge of mammal physiology.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

>>Ok Cheri, I am not trying to fight but will share my views. Let me know what you think of them, be truthful I am a big boy . Ok so this particular dragon is getting sufficient UVB, therefor can produce enough pre vitamin D3 from natural sources. This means that if the lights are sufficient and you can be assured that they are over time then you could get away with just plain old calcium carbonate with no vitamin D3. I do not think anyone has this much faith in the reptile bulbs to just go without dietary D3. Now it is my belief as well as the beliefs of others that dragons can uptake vitamin D3 from their diets. Vitamin D3 is neccesary for a dragon to absorb calcium properly from their digestive tract. Vitamin D3 is dangerous as it is stored in fat stores of a dragon. So going over board with dietary d3 can be harmful. D3 is the active ingridient in rat poison not something to be messed with. So if a dragon is given too much d3 in its diet it is certainly dangerous, but a quick note is I have never heard of a dragon overdosing on D3 from the supplements that are used. If a dragon is getting all the vitamin d3 it needs from its diet, a point that is heavily contested, then UVB lights are useless. Time will tell on this matter. Onto hypercalciemia, it is a risk to dragons health as you mentioned it can build up in joints and also cause hardening of vascular tissue which is very dangerous and can be lethal. So too much calcium can be risky. I have personally never saw a dragon with too hypercalciemia, but I am a newbie and am not involved in the medical community. But I do believe that a dragon with normally functioning kidneys will excrete excess calcium in its urine. Calcium carbonate is broken down to Ca2 and CO3 (carbonate). Ca2 is used in many biological processes from muscle contractions to nerve impulses. It also has a role in keeping the potential accross membranes constant. Oh and of course it has a lot to do with bone structure (calcium carbonate I believe) and also in making egg shells. So the calcium that is not bound for the bones is in the form of Ca2 . This is filtered out of the system by the kidneys (at least in humans and mammals I know reptiles are different but general function of the organs are the same). The kidney filter out things like Na K Ca2 Cl- carbonates urea and other wastes and minerals. It was believed in the past that high calcium diets were the root of kidney stones, this theory has since been discounted. So as I see it there is a risk off too much calcium but this risk I believe to be small in dragons with properly functioning kidneys. As for D3 I believe that it does have a risk in high quantities but I think this risk is also small for healthy dragons if you do not go overboard. Animals that eat a diet mainly made up of whole prey items do not have an issue with too much vitamin d3 and they get loads of it from the animals it eats (in theory from their fat and liver). Just my thoughts let me know what you think. I like to hear others views on this subject, as what I write is based on my knowledge of mammal physiology.
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>>Derek Affonce
>>DeKeAff Exotics
>>dekeaffexotics.com
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Rob Talkington

I use MVB's and use absolute calcium which is plant based and contains no added d3.......I have never had a dragon suffering from lack of calcium absorption in the 2 years I've used this method. This includes numerous gravid females, hatchlings, juveniles etc.. I personally don't use multivitamins either as I provide a well balanced varied diet where it's not necessary.
My dragons also receive natural light during the time of year when it's possible as well.

That said, I'm a nurse and have some medical knowledge though I don't claim to be an expert, and as far as supplements and diets, too much of anything is not good for you or your pets. Anything in excess can and usually is deterimental to health, whether it's short term or long term. So in my opinion, too much d3 is not good, excess calcium is not good, too much fat or protein(especially in adults) is not good for your dragon either. Though the effects may not be seen until a dragon is older and dies early of liver or kidney disease due to improper diet and supplementation.

I beleive a well balanced, varied diet with natural sun exposure is optimal......but many don't live in areas where they can have sun exposure much of the year.....IMO, UVB producing bulbs are you next best choice for natural assimilation of calcium. Then supplementation of d3 is adequate if you choose not to have your dragon do what nature intended on his/her own.

Just my 2 cents.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

LOL sorry, I could not resist!

Yes most of what you say is fact as far as I know, you may know some more recent info on somethings than I do, like the kidney stones.

I know they tossed out calcium being the sole cause of them, but I think there was some studies that showed Calcium with tanic acid (teas) was a major cause in ofrmation of them...this was several years ago and opinion may have changed.

And I agree that poor lights, lights not close enough and too old (plus manufacture errors) do make people leery of trusting them for the sole source of D3. But if someone knows their lights are working, adding daily supplements worries me. That is a lot for an animals to take in and process and I think we need to be aware of the reverse side of the scale, more is not necessarily better.

We have seen dragon be effective by too much calcium, not serious, but enough to tell us it is something that needs to be avoided.

As far as UVB light being unnecessary if supplemented, are we so sure D3 is the only thing we need to replace? I am not sold on that one yet. And yes, time will tell on this matter.

As far as I know, most animals will store calcium in the body in joints and vascular system if there is too much, not excete it... what is too much, I am not really sure, but experience tells us what is enough. Thats all I have to go on for sure right now and the fact that too much is a problem that is seen by professionals. They are finding out now that even reptile of different species, absorb calcium and D3 at different rates, what may work well on one is useless on another.. kind of interesting, you would think it would be close to the same.

I always enjoy talking with you and getting your input, even if I do not always agree, it makes us all strive to learn more definitive answer and sort what we think works best for us and our animals. I also know, your have a BIGGER heart than me when it comes to these creatures and what you do or say, is from truly care about them.

Big boy! haha, your such a tuffie I know and why is it you have kept every ill or handicap dragon you have taken in or taken in more when you had so many already? Oh, cause you so tough... a marshmellow is tough, when you bounce a coin off it.

We need more Big Boys like you!
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www.reptilerooms.com

Ha Ha Cheri. I want to clarify one point. When I mentioned if dragons can use dietary D3 then UVB bulbs are useless. The reason why I say this is because I believe that formation of pre vitamin D3 is self limiting. That a dragon will not overproduce it. I think this is the case in igs, not sure about dragons but I believe it to be the same. So if given dietary d3 and it is absorbed I do not think their is a risk of the body then producing toxic amounts this is why wild igs all have a range of D3 in the blood and it is not a toxic level. They get 200 uw/cm/cm for most hours of the day which is many times what we can hope to provide in captivity. The values of wild igs is also comparable to that of igs given light dustings of calcium with d3 and 10 uw /cm/cm in captivity.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I just love the end of your response. And I know we have too many rescued animals. but it is so hard to give them away. You take the time to nurse them back to health after neglect or other defects and then you can't just give them away. you have so much time and effort in to them. so I have to work on letting go of them. poor little spud do't want to see her go but I should don't need a little dragon that much.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

np
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

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Stacey

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Stacey

For the first 5 months of growth I as well supplement one cricket feeding a day with Rep-cal with d3 or Mineral I 6 days a week with one day being no calcium and a muti vitamin Herptivite instead. With the use of UVB lights as well over the basking spot. Now I'm using dual fluorescent 2/3 the length of their cages. So far so good with my dragons. When they reach around 6-7 months and are not rapidly growing anymore I cut back the calcium supplementation to 4 times a week. I feel your dragon is adequate size for his age, and still has plenty left to grow. I would not worry to much at all. I'm working with a dragon now that was only 44-50 grams at 4-5 months of age. I think he's actually very small for his age still too this day. Not what I expected growth wise from him. At least not showing the fast growth that my other dragons have showed growing up. Maybe in time this one will catch up as well. 30 crickets a day is not bad at all. That's 15 a feeding if he ate twice a day. I would say he's taking in an average amount of crickets daily. Next step should be working towards some greens, and pellets in the morning. I would not worry to much at all. Some grow faster then others, and some just not as big as well.
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