Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thank you, all, for your responses! We aren't going to get another beardie for a while...waiting until we move (closer to a herp vet, too) and until the warmer weather arrives. I would like to purchase a beardie from a breeder, directly...NO MORE PET STORE! I should've listened to all the posts I've read about the "dangers" of buying through the pet store. My concern was shipping babies...how to keep them warm?! So, when we decide the time is right, I hope you'll be able to point me to a good breeder ( I know honest/quality ones are out there and probably on this forum) In the mean time, what is the best way to handle the "furniture" and sand? Bleach and toss the sand? I hate to toss the sand...over $100 in sand (calcisand). While we're talking about the sand, I've heard 2 completely different things...calcisand is the only way to go (easily digestible/no impaction) and NO calcisand ( impaction/undigestible). Which is it?????? Seen that many posts say that they use a shelf liner???

I use shelf liner. When it comes to my pets, my motto is better safe than sorry. If you aren't 100% sure about the sand, why take the chance? Personally I've heard far more negative things about calci-sand than positive, so I wouldn't go near the stuff. Also, never use sand with babies, the risks are far greater.

I use the shelf liner and I am so confident with it, I'll never go back to using anything else. It's easy to clean, doesn't harvest bacteria, and I know my dragon can't swallow it.

As for shipping babies, they put heat packs in the box, outside the container the dragon is in. Here is a picture of how my baby arrived. You can see the box within a box. Well, the outside box it was padded with styrofoam and newspaper, and the heat packs were placed in there. They were still warm when he arrived.

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1.0.1 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Anyone who has experience will tell you no calcisand. I'd shove pineapples up the anal cavity of every salesperson who says it's good, if I could. They're inclined to eat it even more so, it's NOT digestable, and they get impacted.
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Zeo)
0.2.0 Leopard Geckos (Vienna, Chomps)
1.0.0 Golden Retriever (Rocky, 11 y.o.)

There's my problem...hard to know who to believe. Both "sides" feel emphaticly about their opinion. Because I need to get rid of the sand due to possible disease of last beardie, I won't replace it. I knew it wasn't good for babies, but the beardie that we had previously had grown a good size...just kept it in there. What type of shelf liner should I bee looking for? I know there's the sticky/adheasive type and the rubber-like. The rubber-like has holes in it...fecal material drop between holes and make a mess on the bottom?? Thought about the terrarium carpet, but heard drawbacks to that too!!

We use combos of substrates, depending on the age of the dragons.

Babies go on paper towels

Juvies on non adhesive shelf liner and paper towels (they learn to use the paper towel for poo)

Subadults get shelf liner on bottom, some reptile carpet in sleeping area and folded paper towel. When they are around 9 months we add a Sand Box of washed play Sand.

Both shelf liner and carpet can be spot cleaned with baby wipes or a cloth with nolvasan. We do not use bleach on the shelf liner, wash with hat water and dish soap or nolvasan.

Babies tank:

Young Dragons with their new Sand box

Adult Male (just on the other side of the bridge is shelf liner in this eating area

Female with added sand box, carpet and shelf liner


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www.reptilerooms.com

Is that indoor/outdoor carpet that you are using in the older tanks?? Washable, I assume.

There is rubber shelf-liner at walmart. It is Duck brand and it doesn't have the holes, (though I know what you're talking about.) This is different, it's flat, non-adhesive. I use it for my adult and my baby.

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1.0.1 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

almost 3 years old. It has been washed every weekend and still looks new, it does not ravel like other ones. I only add the carpet when they are trained to go on the paper towels or shelfliner area with paper towel, but you can spot clean it through the week or vacuum it if needed.

Not only do these substrates avoid the impaction and abrasion issues, it also helps control bacteria and mold problems.
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www.reptilerooms.com

false advertizing with reptile products or health control care. These calci-sands should be banned from store shelfs and use. They mislead people and cause deaths, all the time advertizing the opposite.

If this was a product used by furry pets and having the same results of impaction and horrible deaths, there would be public outcry and it would be banned.

No matter what it says on the package or the Store clerk making the sale that has about nil experience in its use tells you, it does impact them and it can be deadly for bearded dragons. Reading any medical forum or list proves that. AT least for bearded dragons and Uro's, we have not seen the complaints or problems with gecko's though.
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www.reptilerooms.com

So, other than paper towels for babies, what is the substrate that you recommend using? I'm trying to do everything right and even researched for 3 months before getting the first beardie...but there are so many different opions! I didn't know about this forum when I was doing my research...I now depend on its input! Sounds like I was lucky that my beardies never became impacted!! Want to prevent that with the next one.

Are you having a necropsy done on the one you lost?

Early signs of partial impactions are straining to poo, not eating well and the sand can cause abrasions on the lining of the intestines which leaves it open to bacteria, which also cause periodic prolapse.

I realize this is what you were advised by the "store professional" but there is just too much evidence out there that calci-sand is deadly. I have seen x-rays of the impactions, vials of the sand removed by flushing (they insert a tube into the stomach and flood water through one side while the other vacuums out the moving sand. Several necropsy reports showing sand as the cause of death and even fecals that "grit and snap" the cover slides when they set up to do a fecal.

It does NOT digest and it does impact or lead to other problems.
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www.reptilerooms.com

With geckos I see it as an even greater problem. I read those forums, and I hear about geckos who died and a necropsy was conducted (Both those who died from impaction and those who didnt) and people were suprised by how much sand/etc. was found. I know at least with leopard geckos, they use their tongue alot, flicking things all the time.
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Zeo)
0.2.0 Leopard Geckos (Vienna, Chomps)
1.0.0 Golden Retriever (Rocky, 11 y.o.)

I usually an only on the Bearded Dragon and Uro medical forums and I know there it is a serious issue, I would love to toss the stuff out of the stores we see it in and what is most upsetting is that new people are sold this product for hatchlings!!
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www.reptilerooms.com

There are several products on the market which cause slow horrible deaths to small mammals and birds. Cedar bedding is just one example. So reptiles aren't getting 'special treatment' as far as crappy commerical products go.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

This was back when I first got into Leos. It was the most beautiful and expensive one I had at the time (go figure - that would be the one it would happen to). It was horrible to watch. no amount of mineral oil, massages or warm water soaks helped in the end.
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Photos

Hi
sad to hear you lost youre beardie
i think his sypmtoms where not eat much and not mobile? and not poop??
r just kill from one day to the other ??
calsisand is very bad .
i think a petstore must not sel it to you !!
here a link .
they call this diferent name but is same stuf !!
http://www.pythons.com/calcium.html
byeeeeeeeeee
http://run.to/b22

From every thing I've seen on here and several other places with the whole calci-sand/no calci-sand argument seems to be the following.

Most people seem to agree calci-sand is bad and potentially harmful to a bearded dragon. This is due to the many deaths and impactions breeders and vets have witnessed.

Typically those who swear by calci-sand are people who have used calci-sand and haven't had any problems yet, and are offended by the insinuation that they may have made a potentially life-threatening choice.

So they stand around and jump up an down and scream "I'm right! How dare you imply...! I've been using for...years and never!!!" and while these things may be true for them, we still have a continually growing pile of little lizard corpses with clumps of blue crap bursting through their insides.

I really can't stand it when people whould jump up and down and scream about how their *unverified* opinion is right rather than play it safe just in case. Like it REALLY matters that much what substrate you use. It's not gonna' kill any pet owner to take their lizard off the stupid calci-sand when it could potentially be a problem.

If someone uses calci-sand and has had no troubles, they shouldn't use that as an excuse to continue, instead, they should change the substrate to something that is agreed universally to be much safer, and consider themselves a blessed, over-protective parent of a wonderful austrailian creature.

Being right really shouldn't be more important than someone's pet having the greatest potential to enjoy a long, pleasant life under their care.

These are just my observations on why you see such fervent argument about calci-sand here and elsewhere, and I whole heartedly urge you to discontinue the usage of the stuff, and consider it a loss worth learning...is the risk of being wrong and having another dead beardie worth it?

I wasn't trying to preach at you, and you have my deepest condolences, it's just that the calci-sand argument always pushes my buttons.

I realize that you weren't yelling for either side, and were just asking for advice/help, and I don't want to discourage you from that ever. Please understand that I was not in any way trying to condemn you, I just wanted to show my persepctive on that whole argument.

Here's hoping your next beardie lives to be 15 years old, and loves you with at least as much effort as you're putting in to being prepared to love it!

I understand, completely, where you are coming from. When I was doing my research on Beardies, I did not know about this forum. All I had to go by was a book I bought, talking to several so called "herp" stores, and research on the internet. I feel very lucky to have avoided impaction, though he did die of other causes. If it does cause so many problems, it should be banned! Just as cedar shavings should be banned from small animal use. I agree, the people that told me to use the calcisand were the lucky ones...that may not be so lucky in the future. I was not offended by your first response...rather it was very encouraging to know that someone is willing to speak their mind for beardies they don't even know. Glad you feel the way that you do. This forum was my, and my beardie's, lifeline for so long. I truly value each and every persons opinion...on this forum. Thank you!!