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Amphibian and Reptile Enthusiasts for Conservation and Responsible Pet Ownership, a proposal.

BigBrother Jan 25, 2004 04:59 PM

Amphibian and Reptile Enthusiasts for Conservation and Responsible Pet Ownership, a proposal.

I know there are lots of other people out there in the herp community who generally feel the same why I do about the dark-side of the herp community; namely the collection of wild animals (legal and illegal), the keeping of illegal animals, the smuggling of protected animals and the mistreatment of animals sold to persons who don’t know how to properly care for their charges. Unfortunately, many of these people choose not to do or say anything about the problem because they think the problem is to big for them to affect or they are afraid of the backlash they will receive from the vocal few who refuse to admit that there is a problem, so I would like to make a humble proposal to try and change the problem such that every one can participate in the solution without outsiders dictating the changes to our hobby. I do not pretend to have all the answers, I am merely trying to start a dialog, but if people start to openly talking about the problem(s) and educate them selves about it, we can find ways to solve the problem(s) ourselves without outside groups, who have much different agendas than we do, forcing solutions down our throat. We need to make the changes ourselves, but not just because we are being forced to, but also because it is the right thing to do, and most of us know that.

The classic example of success in the face of massive outside criticism is the scientific research community that in the past did have cases of extreme animal abuse occurring within their ranks. As a result of those abuses, the scientific community was being attacked on all fronts by largely the same organizations that are attacking the herp community today. The scientific community recognized that there were problems within their ranks (the first major step to solving any problem), so the scientific community established a set of rules or guidelines by which all researchers and their research programs must conform to eliminate the questionable research practices and animal abuse that was going on. Further, they established a review panel to which scientists had to submit their research proposals for review by both their peers and members of the community at large to ensure that the research they were conducting was scientifically justified and that they were treating the animals used in research in as humane a manor as possible. Any one found to be violating the guidelines were ostracized from the community, which generally meant they lost their research funding. PETA is still not happy that animal research is continuing in any form, but by cleaning up their house, scientists effectively eliminated PETA’s major leverage in the argument against them, and scientists are now largely winning the public relations campaign because they responded in a reasonable manor to reasonable concerns.

The zoo community also participates in a very similar program, but their program is not quite as effective because it is driven more by gate receipts (i.e. the more people visit a zoo the more the zoo has to pay for its membership in the organization) than by enforcement of the rules of the organization. This is because the organization looses funding every time a member of the organization is removed from the group, so the organization has a financial stake in keeping its membership. The result is that there are rumblings of decent within the zoo community because of un-addressed problems at various zoos, which may force changes to the organization in the future, but at least the zoo community is trying to do something to self regulate in an effort to reduce outside criticism. Many larger zoos, that make bigger targets for the opposition, also participate in the scientific review process, especially when they are conducting real scientific research at their facilities, to further help eliminate the leverage PETA has in their battle to eliminate all captive animals. Once again, zoo’s have responded in a reasonable manor to reasonable concerns.

The herp community should follow this example and also respond to reasonable concerns in a reasonable manor. The herp community, however, does not have the “big stick” of funding elimination to help enforce the guidelines within it’s members like the scientific community has done, but we could set up guidelines for persons, breeders, organizations and pet stores that must be subscribed to in order to become a member and thus be allowed to display the membership logo for all to see. That way, people could choose to buy from a herp dealer or pet store that was a member of the organization (we could call it Amphibian and Reptile Enthusiasts for Conservation and Responsible Pet Ownership, or ARECRPO) and thus the person knew that the animal they were buying did not come from the wild and that the animal was maintained in a humane facility. If dealers and stores that sold wild collected animals or sold animals with out giving proper care instructions to the buyers and thus were not allowed to join the organization, started loosing sales to their competitors who were members, it would not take very long before the market would clean itself up. Yes there would have to be an inspection and enforcement board within the group to ensure that all of its members adhered to the rules, but this board would be made up largely of herpers who know what is going on with herps rather than some member of PETA or HSUS or some wildlife law enforcement agency that does not have a clue. I would, however, have representatives from legitimate organizations like HSUS, F&WS and TRAFFIC on the board to keep the lines of communication open, and to improve relations, but I would definitely keep PETA and other radical organizations at arms length and off the board. I would also recommend that breeders and pet stores be represented on the board as well, but the majority of board members would need to be herp enthusiasts to eliminate the financial pit fall that the zoo community has fallen into. I know there have been groups of breeders who have banned together in the past, and said they were trying to eliminate wild collecting, but they lacked the legitimacy the organization I am proposing would have because the breeder groups I am aware of lack the clear guidelines and independent review board that I am proposing.

With this organization, every herper in the US could actively participate in eliminating the dark-side of our hobby simply by buying animals and goods from dealers and stores that belong to ARECRPO. What do you think? Will this plan work, and if not, why not? I’m looking for real ideas on ways to solve the problem here, so if you have ideas, please speak up.

Big Brother

Replies (15)

rearfang Jan 25, 2004 06:49 PM

A question and a problem. I understand a certain amount of ostracising can be accomplished by the "responsible members" of the Herp comunity. But I don't see the general public going on that bandwagon. Any better ideas for enforcing?

I can't agree with a complete Ban on W/C. I think it will endanger some animals if there is no market for them in their land of origion. They will be used for food or skins or just plain exterminated to make room for people. People at sustinance level don't care about conservation. They will feed their families with what is at hand...and they live closest to the herps in their countrys. The solution is not so easy as a ban.

Besides, some of these animals (as I said before) will have no protection if people don't see them in the flesh.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

BigBrother Jan 25, 2004 09:05 PM

Rearfang,

The breeders cater mainly to the “responsible members”, so they should come around rather quickly. Further, the rarer and thus more expensive herps are bought by serous herpers and not by the general public, and since these are the animals that are most likely smuggled, that should put at least a dent in the market for smuggled animals. Now, I will grant you that the green iguana buying public may not understand all this and buy from any body, but if we can pressure pet stores into being more responsible, and HSUS may help us out here, then I think we could make a real difference. The key is to make responsable herpers cool!

I guess I don’t understand your second point. If there is no commercial market, and thus no dollar value to a reptile how is that going to endanger the species? Yes, the locals will collect them for food and for skins to be sold in Asia, but that is already going on in addition to the collection for the pet trade. A ban would eliminate one component of the trade and thus reduce the pressure on wild stocks. It might even make it possible to stop some of the skin trade as well. In short, I don’t see how a ban would endanger wild herps.

Big Brother

electricbluescat Jan 25, 2004 08:03 PM

Found a cool site

www.nosnakeban.org

also I am working on getting together a petiton on some of our native state laws regarding reptiles. here in Ga we can have a native "hot" snake but no native non venomous snakes such as corn snakes. we dont need a permit for native hots.

also check out my herp society at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthWestGaHerpetolgicalSociety
North West Ga Herpetological Society

jfmoore Jan 25, 2004 10:57 PM

Hi Big Brother

Just two quick observations:

I have a personal bias against anonymous proposals or criticisms, unless the person is operating under totalitarianism (the Baghdad Blogger, say) and fears for his or her very life. Anything worth a spit that requests people to band together towards a larger purpose, contributing time, energy and money, should be worth attaching your name to. But then, since you have chosen such an Orwellian screen name, you must have intended to play with people a bit, yes?

You might want to take another look at the name you proposed for this organization. I could see it referred to by detractors as ARE CREEPO (or worse ARE CRAPO) and its members “ARE CREEPS.” But wait, surely you must have noticed this already, no?

-Joan

BigBrother Feb 23, 2004 01:30 AM

Joan,

Call it what ever you like! I am going for a change in the ideology of the herp industry not semantics. And if it makes you feel better, call me “Bubba” like all my friends do

Big Bubba

jfmoore Feb 23, 2004 02:23 AM

Hey Bubba/aka Big Bubba/aka Big Brother/(all Anonymous - that's you) – Why do you take so long to answer your expectant public? See, we’ve lost interest already. Short attention spans. Get your behind out of that ivory tower or you’ll never be able to lead a grassroots movement. I think I’ll just call you Ralph Nadar, instead. But keep us informed, y’hear? Are you on the Bio or Psych side?

-JFMoore (real name - that's me)

BigBrother Feb 23, 2004 02:49 AM

Hey JFMore,

Gimie a break! I don’t live on this forum, I do have a real job, besides I stepped in a mine field in one of the newer threads that has been taking all my time and attention the last few days, so I did not even realize people were still responding to this thread until yesterday, but I am glad to see all the continuing interest!

JFMore is a real strange name, but glad to meet ya! My friends call me Bubba, and I’m on the Bio side of things, but my friends would probably also call me Psycho, so take your pick, but then as a fellow herper you probably get the same sort of response from your coworkers

So who do you think we should get to lead our little revolution? If I did, I would get fired on the spot and probably sued (hence the cloak-n-dagger joke, which some people don’t seem to think is very funny, I guess I just hit a nerve or something, but hey, if ya can’t take a joke…).

Big Bubba

brandon_c Jan 26, 2004 07:28 AM

You have my support ... and my thanks.

-Brandon Cornett
Brandon@nosnakeban.org
www.nosnakeban.org

BigBrother Feb 23, 2004 01:31 AM

Thank You Brandon!!!

mealworm Jan 26, 2004 02:46 PM

Hi,

I think the bigger problem is pet store's treatment of animals. You cant really control what people do with their animals at home unless the person is caught. I see sick animals all the time at a lot of pet stores. They use calci-sand for a lot of small animals, and every reptile i've bought from a pet store has died for some weird reason. I know this isnt true with all pets bought from pet stores, but their definately is some mistreatment in a lot of pet stores. Feel free to disagree.. just what i've observed.

marie

BigBrother Feb 23, 2004 01:34 AM

Marie,
I whole-heartedly agree with you, which is why I advocate for more education of pet stores by herpers, and this is one of the many problems that I think some kind of an organization like I have proposed here would have to address to clean up the image of the herp industry!
Big Brother

ChrisRo Feb 20, 2004 03:35 PM

Have you heard of NRIP. Check out the PIJAC website that has a banner on the top of this website.

With this organization, every herper in the US could actively participate in eliminating the dark-side of our hobby simply by buying animals and goods from dealers and stores that belong to ARECRPO. What do you think? Will this plan work, and if not, why not? I’m looking for real ideas on ways to solve the problem here, so if you have ideas, please speak up.

BigBrother Feb 23, 2004 01:37 AM

Chris,
With my blockers, I don’t get all the banners most people get, so could you please post the link?
Thanks!
Big Brother

dravenxavier Feb 21, 2004 08:13 AM

I don't have time to go through everyone's posts because I have to get going to work, so I don't know if this point has been made. It sounds like a great idea, but I have a problem with the point that you can't be a member if you sell wild-caught herps. I can see that being true for ball pythons and leopard geckos and the like. But, I work at a pet shop, and we carry many species which have not yet been captive bred, or at least not in appreciable numbers. Things like blue-toed treefrogs, bumblebee toads, uncommon species of anoles, and common reptiles that no one bothers to breed (green snakes, common anoles, native frogs, etc.), just to name a few. By your standards, that would mean we would not be able to sell such animals. The problem I have with that, is that if no wild-caught animals (especially of the more exotic species) are available, then no captive bred populations can be established. Maybe fine-tune the regulations where no wild caught specimens of a list of species can be sold, or something to that effect. I'm all for captive bred animals, and the store I work at does not deal in wild caught animals of the species that are bred in sufficient numbers, but for many species, they're just not available.
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1.1 Albino Nelson's Milks
0.1 Dumeril's Boa
0.0.1 Albino Corn
0.1 Mex Mex
0.1 Northern Blue Tongue
0.0.1 Green Tree Frog
0.0.1 Cuban Tree Frog

BigBrother Feb 23, 2004 01:59 AM

dravenxavier,

I hear your concern, but let me ask you this. Do you think the people who buy the more exotic wild collected species from your store are, for the most part, the kind of people who can successfully breed those species in captivity? In other words, pet stores tend to cater to the “masses” if you will, and not as much to the hardcore herpers that are more likely to be successful in breeding new species to the industry. Thus, if we limit the sale of wild collected animals to serous hobbyists only through breeder stock outlets instead of local pet stores, then we will reduce the number of animals taken from the wild that will not contribute to a captive breeding program. This means that your average pet store herper, who is the majority of the common herp market any way, will only be able to buy CB herps, but the serious herpers with the knowledge and ability to breed the more exotic species could still get their hands on these new species, breed them and be able to clear a profit faster with CB individuals from the WC parent stock because they would not have to compete with cheaper WC individuals that are generally destined to death in the hands of the casual herper.

This is just off the top of my head, so I’m not sure I’ve made my point clear here, but I think this is an issue that could be worked out to maximize the benefit of every WC animal.

Big Brother

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