Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a newly acquired 8 inch Burmese Brown Tortoise that I am working with to aclimate, she is a recent import. First of all she will only eat when she is hand-fed. When she is in her pen she shuts down and doesn't move much. However, she is eating a lot every evening when I can hold her and offer her delicacies such as cactus pad, papaya, soaked Mazuri, grapes and sometimes collard. I also soak her every night or every other night but she has yet to produce a fecal. She tries and tries, lots of bubbles, but ....... I understand that the cactus pad has a laxitive effect and she readily eats her fill while I am holding her. But still no p**p. Any suggestions. I know that she will feel so much better and be more active if this could be accomplished. Any suggestions? Or am I worrying for nothing?

It's strange that this comes up so often.
There was a study done (don't ask for a reference)(take it or leave it) where it was determined that it takes about 15 days for a tortoise to process intake to output at normal temperatures. (on the average)
If it is acting 'normal'... give it time.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You don't mention how long you've had her. It may just be that she isn't ready to produce a poop yet. Tortoises have very slow digestive tracts because it takes a long time to absorb the nutrients from fiberous vegetation. Tortoises do need a lot of fiber in their diets which is one more reason I don't like Mazuri or any other man-made foods for tortoises. They have virtually no fiber at all and can bind a tortoise up. I believe a lack of fiber is sometimes a cause of health problems in captive tortoises because of manmade foods and also a diet of lettuce and other store-bought vegetables which have a much lower fiber content than their natural diet of weeds and grasses.

I can't help but wonder how you can form such a strong opinion without trying the product.
What are you looking for in a high fiber diet? I'm looking for well formed fecal pellets which is what I'm seeing in this diet. Good growth, good digestion and good blood flow... what more can you ask for in a diet supplement.
You notice you haven't seen one single post of 'I tried the stuff and have gotten nothing but bad results' Don't that make you wonder at all?
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Fiber in the diet, especially long-stemmed fiber (aka effective fiber, or eNDF), is necessary to maintain a good microbial population in the hindgut of tortoises. The by-products of the microbial fermentation, volatile fatty acids, significantly contribute to the tortoises energy requirements. It has also been shown that some VFA's, specifically butyrate, contribute to gut health. Feeding a diet that contains very little to no fiber may be deleterious to your tortoise's health.

griffin

Thanks for all the info about fiber and roughage. However, this tortoise is not eating on her own due to what I think is stress. She only eats when I handfeed her and then only items that she can't resist. I am handfeeding because I am eager for her to settle in and be comfortable. I'm watching closely for the fecal so that I can have it examined at the Vet's since she is a recent import. It's good to know that it's normal sometimes for food to take a long time passing through the gut. I have no proof that she had ever eaten for the importer and seller since no fecal has been produced here. She is a lovely looking girl and she will make a wonderful addition to my collection when all is settled out and she completes quarantine. I'm not disappointed in her in any way but "the anxious Mommy" in me takes over every now and then.

Man, it sounds like you got the low down on this. Now don't take this as a challange or whatnot but I'd really like to see the source or this information because it looks like it might fit into a talk I'm thinking about putting together.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I have a nice article published in 1995, by P.S. Barboza; "Digestive passage and functional anatomy of the digestive tract in the desert tortoise (Xerobates agassizii), J. Comp. Physiol. B 165: 193-202.

He cites 3 other articles by stating "The energy from SCFA production in herbivorous reptiles ranges from 15 to 47% of digestible energy intake." (SCFA = short chain fatty acid; which is the same as VFA's).

In his study, he estimated that energy available from fermentation was 64% of the digestible energy intake in tortoises fed grass. It was 22% for a herbage diet and a high-fiber pellet diet.

As far as gut health and VFA's goes, this is mostly due to the VFA, butyrate. I haven't seen any articles on this in tortoises (not surprising), but it has been studied in various mammals. Alot of research has been conducted in ruminants (for obvious reasons). Also, there are dog food companies who are looking at improving gut health in dogs by adding different blends of fibers to their dog foods. The intestinal cells appear to prefer butyrate as an energy source.

hth

griffin

Very nice. Thank you. That is what I was looking for.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

On another note, what is a sufficient amount of fiber for a tortoise?
See, this comes back to the recomended daily requirement for a tortoise. This is also why the argument of what is too much protein is tough to discuss. From what I can tell, there is a huge debate as to what the RDR for humans is, let alone pets and more so tortoises.
The point is that how can you come up with an RDR for an organism whose metabolism is based so much on its environment and behavioral patterns.
It's like the pyramiding issue. If you have 2 animals raised on the same diet in the same enclosure and one shows signs of pyramiding and another does not the only logical conclusion is that pyramiding in that case is genetic... personally, I don't think that should be the conclusion.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care