Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Zerkles has pine/gopher snake crosses available, but the don't have any pics.....anybody have a pic of a pine/gopher cross?

I'm sorry...that's just wrong.

in an opinion-expressing mood today
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

Just kidding! I have to second the "I hope not." initiative. Hybridization is not a very good thing, though natural integrates do occur.

Jeff

So, I'll take that as I shouldn't buy one then, hehe

Where in the country would you find a natural integrade between a pine and a gopher? So far as I'm aware, their ranges never come together.

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

Even if they did come across one another, say at a Pit convention in Chicago...it just wouldn't work out.

The Gopher snake from CA would be all like, "whoa, come on, it's all good."

and the pine snake from NJ would be all arrogant and brash and acting like it owned the place...talking with that Jersey accent and all.

Well...maybe it would work for a fling...but long term, they are just too different. I mean...the kids would be all messed up. Pines wouldn't like them, gophers wouldn't like them...maybe they could hang out with some loney jungle-corns or something.

PS: I'm with you...don't see the facination with unnatural hybrids.

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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

Vince is a new guy in the pits and probally needs some explaining on the immediately reaction to the intergrades on this forum. Whay don't some of you other folks explain it, I am tired today. LOL. Be gentle guys/girls!

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms
Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

I slap my own hand.

It wasn't meant as an insult...just stupid attempt at humor.
anyway, I have not seen the pics, but Amy Zerkle is often at the Columbus show...

I may get to see them Saturday.

The reason you were so barraged is that you'll find most of the people who are serioulsly into Pituophis are into pure strains and locality traceble (if that's a word) lines.

Not that a pine / gopher cross may not be pretty and be a good pet snake, but my thoughts are that such unnatural hybrids don't really have a natural history, so...the interest ends at how pretty they are or aren't.

You'll get a totally different point of view from the folks on the hybrid forum, but...as a general rule, Pituophis and Drymarchon people at least...seem to loath the idea of interbreeding species.

I hope that made some sense...I'm tired too...

... naturally occuring integrades are more accepted than non-naturally occuring, or outright hybrids. a northern-southern pine integrade is more accepted than a northern pine/any gopher, simply because it doesnt happen in nature. though, some may find a pine gopher cross more acceptable than an eastern king-corn snake hybrid. its all personal taste, but its a matter of being responsible with the gene pool if you want to breed your snakes. i have my own opinion, and its on par with dean's and many others here. hope this is helpful.

i believe dean wrongfully 'profiled' jersey pines. they may be brash at times but they certainly don't have accents. they hiss and enounciate clearly just like all pits.......except for maybe some from the more northern counties. i gotta admit, those hiss alot like new yorkers....;>]

Like gulf hammock rat snakes, which are a Yellow Rat/Grey Rat intergrade. Those snakes would be acceptable, where as an artifially produced intergrade of the same subspecies would not...

..

I apologize for giving you a hard time and for offending anyone, if that be the case.
Actually, I am certain the Pine x Bull hybrid will make an outstanding pet.
I was merely attempting to make a joke (okay, a bad one at that) because I am well aware of the fire storms which tend to ignite, once such discussions take place.
As for my remark about integrates, I should have been more specific. I simply meant that there is enough confusion with each individual sub-species, in regards to natural integration where their respective ranges overlap. I was not referring to any natural integration between bulls and pines. There has been much recent discussion on the subject of naturally occurring integrates, in regards to pines and gophers (NOT AMONGST ONE ANOTHER)
As has been discussed here in the past, regardless of how careful one may be, hybrids and integrates always manage to find their way into someones "pure" strain, even if it's 20 years down the road.
Anyhow, I once bred a corn snake with a kingsnake, but the babies ate themselves! (I know, another BAD joke, but what the heck)

Jeff

You hit the nail on the head. Recently I bought what was sold to me as a Northern/Southern intergrade. Having seen many Southern pines in the wild (and kept a few before the law was passed). I am familiar enough with them to tell the differance. This 12" snake could fool almost anyone into thinking it was pure Southern (a little browner than usual, but still at this point within s.p. range). It could easily be sold as pure.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Pure? There's that word again. This is borderline opinion depending on what you choose to believe but there really is no such thing as a pure subspecies. I say this because of the FACT that there is significant integration (gene flow) between adjacent forms not to mention that, in many cases, there exists enormous variation within a single subspecies. For these reasons, it remains impossible to exactly describe a subspecies hence the concept that "purity" in this instance is elusive at best. The only thing that can be pure, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, is locality. That being said, your southern/northern pine cross (captive induced integration) may or may not be any less pure, from a genetic perspective, than a locality animal that is 1) subject to the influence of gene flow from adjacent populations but 2) remain phenotypicly a classic example of a southern pine.

To the point of the original question about gopher X pine crosses, I personally wouldn't see the point in creating or perpetuating such a cross unless there was some vision behind it say perhaps to selectively breed a smaller pit with a classic northern pine pattern. Here, I don't think that the existence of such projects need threaten those that run along more "pure" lines. It seems to me the burden, of maintaining "pure" strains, clearly rests with the respective breeders. If they eliminate ALL subjective criteria from their stock selection process, which by the way is the only way to ensure purity, they NEVER need fear the genetic "calamity" of a cross polluting their stock. The level of concern over this very occurrence indicates that subjective-criteria are widely used to determine the legitimacy of "pure" stocks.

That really hits the question of sub-specific validity Tony. However, for the sake of arguement, let us use the term "Varient". That which we call a Northern is distinctly different from a Southern as there are traits that are disernibly unique to each. The question of "purety" would then be described in the terms of those characterisics. The point being, as a breeder; is it better to encourage the uniqueness of both varients and thus preserve the naturalness of the two forms, or to promote the natural obliveration of both forms thru artificial intergradiation?

From a Commercial viewpoint the former would be more desirable, as it adds more variety to a dealers stock, though breeders do experiment in an attempt to create new marketable forms. It's pretty much the same issue that dog breeders have. A "pure bred" is worth more than a fancy Mutt. From a collector's view, the aesthetics of each different varient is a priority. it is like a stamp collector, trying to pick the right example from each variation. From Nature's viewpoint it is irrelevant, as the intergrade would still perform the same function and in so doing fill the same niche.

A good example is in South Florida with the Brook's King. The canal system built in the 1940's created an artificial access for the intergrade form to penetrate deep into what was "pure" Brooks country making the varient more rare and commercially desirable. The problem right now is that many snakes that are of the intergade form are being marketed as Brooks because of their tendency to appear more similar to the form; in an effort to profit off the higher price.

This is where the problem pops in. As these psuedo-Brooks are being distributed and then bred to "pure" Brooks the integrety of the form is compromised. Establishing a criteria to separate the "pure" from the impure snakes becomes increasingly hard as the lines muddy.

The same logic applies to any species of animal man works with and sometimes trys to "improve" thru breeding. I think this sums up the objection to Crosses, Hybrids (or whatever you want to call the result) when different varients are crossed and then released to the open market.

Frank

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Interesting views. Your dog comparision I found interesting as well. I once recall a debate on pure breeds and mutts used as a comaprision in regards to hybrids and pure snakes. Thing that was pointed out in that debate was that pure bred dogs are actually mutts themselves and probably hybrids as the only pure form of a dog being wolves, jackals and such. Anyway, watching the recent national dog show I recall one top breed expert say something to the point of if anyone really finds they need a particular pure bred dog, get one. Then goto the local humane society and get a mutt to raise it with so it can have the best of both worlds and be a dog again.

Rich Hebron

OH.........those WC White Brooksi that at one time came out of South Florida were impressive. Seems when something like that happens it becomes easier to say such subspecies never were to begin with. So went the Everglades rat as well.