Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey,
all just a thought. I just finished looking over the venomous classifieds and noticed an add for a cobra out in someones yard and thought pic's like this should not be posted not to mention taking a hot snake out in the yard is iresponcible.

You don't wan't to draw the wrong kind of attention from people who would love to deny you the right to keep venomous. Any other thoughts? My 2 cents. ZACK!

Looks more like a farm to me... For all we know that pic was taken out in the middle of nowhere. Guess you could email them yourself and ask if you have an issue with it, their website is right on the ad.
-----
"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Well if its way out in the open its not as bad.
I dont recomend taking mambas out for a run unless you can run
fast and have a auto-shot-gun ready to go.
as to people getting upset too bad they wont be happy till we live in sterile plastic tubes then your thoughts will be regulated.
later
bud

Considering the source, I'm not at all surprised by that ad.

thats chance he knows what he is doing he keeps taipans.

.

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

First off, TJ, can't say I'm surprised at your comments. Yet you don't seem to at all be worried about other ads with pictures of hot snakes outside.

To the rest of everyone else, yes I live in the country. I would not have taken any pictures outside if I lived in the middle of town. I hardly think having a monocled outside, which is not a very fast snake by any means, with four people around while the pictures were being taken, warrants this kind of attack. Maybe if I had a big green or black mamba on a hook outside, maybe then it would be warranted, but not this. I chose to take pics of them outside because the lighting was best for what I wanted. I needed a picture to show the relative size of the snake, and that's what they do. So to ZX, yeah you probably should have e-mailed me before making this post and found out the situation around it before saying anything. Of course you don't know the situation at hand: that there were three other competant handlers on hand while they were being photographed, that I live outside of town in the country, and that the yard this was being taken in is quite large and quite impossible for any snake to get away from us in. Oh, and it seems the pictures worked quite well. She was just sold this morning.
-Chance Duncan
River Valley Snakes

Actually, the pics with the @ssholes holding the venomoids are way worse than yours, and, at least you know how to spell your species correctly. It's the decisions you make without thinking of any impact. I don't recall seeing any other pics with people posing for pictures outside in the open, I also don't pay too much attention to the classifieds either, simply because the majority are money hungry sh!tbags, that's not a shot towards you either. As much as I dislike some of your actions, I've yet to hear anything bad about your business practices.

Why, thank you? I think. Anyway, I too can't stand the venomoid ads, especially when they aren't labelled as such until you click them. It's not that I didn't think there would be no impact from posting a pic of a cobra outside. In fact, when my roommate and I were trying to decide on which to post last night and were resizing them, I mentioned something about how some people might take this the wrong way. The pictures of her were between those, which were nice, or the ones taken on the floor of the snake room months and months ago when she had rubbed her nose a little and was deep in the blue. Obviously, I opted for the former. If I ever post any other pictures of hot snakes outside, I'll be sure to include a disclaimer about what the conditions were. I obviously don't want people to think "Hey, cool, I'll take my cobra outside and let it play on the grass as well!" I just wanted the best lighting I could get, and sunlight does tend to be the best lighting available....well, other than the obviously fake lighting jobs I've been seeing spring up here and there in the classifieds ("high yellows" or uh..maybe a very yellow light, or "high reds" when it's an obviously red tint to the pics...). And as for my business practices, you won't hear anything bad about them, because I don't do bad things. In fact, most of my "customers" that have bought the few snakes I've sold over the past couple of years have been my friends, or at least many-times-repeat customers. I tend to screen people as best I can before selling any potentially dangerous snake to them, which is by far more than I can say for a very large majority of the sellers in the classifieds. As for the other pics being taken outside, a pretty well known keeper and seller, kinda close to my area, has posted ads before of his big gabs outside, and even though they are just big "slow" gabs, they are still every big as dangerous when loose as a cobra. I've also seen lots of others with pictures of rattlers outside and such. I'm not trying to defend my actions with the actions of others, as I have already defended these pictures, I'm just giving other examples.

I'm with you on this one Chance, i've seen plenty of pics that show irresponsiblity on the classifieds, and I personally did not find yours that way...people should ask first before assuming that you were in the middle of the city or something...

psilo

Do you think that the people fighting against hotkeepers would take the time to find out if he was in the middle of the city? No, they wouldn't. And regardless, it doesn't make any difference where he was, an escaped cobra is an escaped cobra, to the media or to the anti-venomous. Was what he did really that big of a deal? To us, no, but to others, the only thing they see is someone taking snapshots with a deadly snake capable of killing thousands of people ( you know how cobras get when in the normal publics eye ). I personally just felt that there was a little bit of bad judgement on his part, regardless of how many people there were behind the camera. Is Chance and his companions capable of catching a cobra in the middle of an open field? I'm quite sure. But, what happens if it isn't caught? Do you understand my reasoning? We can't do anything that may make hot keeping look bad in the eyes of the people fighting to take our PRIVELEDGES away. Chance' picture is not even remotely the worst picture in the classifieds. I noticed some dumb@ss with a link to his picture page of him freehandling numerous hots AND a picture of his girlfriend free handling a freakin' cobra. How does this look in the eyes of others? I'm not comparing Chance to the other clown, I'm just saying every little thing looks bad for us. Chance seems like he cares a great deal for the hobby, and, seems brighter than many of the others. So he should protect himself against things like this happening, regardless of how little they may seem to us.
Hope this may clarify my stance a little, compared to my initial post. I can be level-headed sometimes.

I've seen other outside ads...
Over a year ago, a guy had an ad selling tree vipers. I think they were eyelashes. Anyway, he had a picture of about 10 of them hanging on a tree by his deck.
Anyway, I'd rather look at grass than at some shirtless dude in front of a messy room, but I agree that taking hots outside should be done very very very carefully.
-----
"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

There is nothing wrong with that. He lives out in the country..like Chance stated. He is a knowledgable guy and would not put anyone in jeopardy by having a Monacle outside.

Joe

the "attack Chance forum"? The guy cant do anything without someone jumping on him. Since I was there I can say that the only way that animal would have escaped would have been if it grew wings and flew away. You know it really kills me how insulting people can be towards one another. Too many folks in this hobby do nothing but try to tear others up for any and every little thing. Here's and idea though...try finding out what you're talking about before you talk about it. Hmmm.

Tom

What is wrong with you???? Bringing a snake out into natural lighting to get an awesome picture of it..... You should be ashamed of your self...... God knows natural lighting does nothing for your animals or your pictures......LOL..... Do people have anything better to do than try to pick people apart.... I can see if it was deserved but that pic was a good shot with a species that can be controled fairly easily...... The only people that should be ripped up here are pro venomoiders, free handlers and keeper that let their snakes escape from their cages.......

Yeah, you know, if I didn't know better, I'd say that they almost enjoyed the sunshine on them. This was back in the early part of last summer, so it was warm and the rays were pretty direct. When we got the albino out onto the ground, we literally could not even get him to move. Keep in mind, this is a snake that would fly up and out of his enclosure, mouth wide open, trying to nail anything if he smelled food. He'd even do it when there was no food, just to scare you. But he just laid there soaking up the sun and seeming to really enjoy it. If you want, I can e-mail you some of the pictures of him we took that day. They are the best ones we ever got of him. We uploaded one of them to the website, it's at http://rivervalleysnakes.com/S_S_DSC00399.JPG if you want to take a look. We also did get good pictures of the other two normal monocleds, but they just didn't seem to enjoy it as much as the albino, lol. Just shoot me an e-mail through this and I'll reply with more pictures. I believe my account info is up-to-date on here, but if not and it sends your e-mail back, the address is rvsnakes@direcway.com.

Hey Chance,
I did not take the time to read all of the post in this thread so I don't know where you are getting that you are being attacked. In my original post I was simply stating my stance on pic's like yours. I did not mean to make you defensive, or have you feel attacked.

I am sure the situation you described regarding the cobra outside is accurate and the risk to public safety was very minimal, but do we really want to see a trend of people taking their animals out of the reptile room to get "the best lighting"? I know I wouldn't like to live next to a neighbor like that. The next guy might not be so careful and be out in his .10th of an acre city back yard displaying all of his beauties out in the wonderful warm sun to get "just the right shot".

I addressed this in the forum opposed to e-mailing you direct so that I would be reaching other herpers out there who have either posted an add with outdoor pic's of hots, or where thinking about doing it after seeing pic's like yours to give it more thought.

I noticed you were surprised to see a certain wild acting cobra behaving differently once outside.

Well, as I am sure many will attest to most all herps are VERY un-predictable once outside. You will also see some of the most mellow animals in the reptile room act just plain nut's especially once they warm up outside in the sun.

I don't think ill of you in fact from everything I have read you post you seem like a very intelligent young man. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am sure you are a very compitent hot herper, but if there is one thing that history has taught us and that is "familiarity breeds contempt". ZACK!

Hello Zack. My advertisement was being attacked by questioning why I posted a picture of a monocled in a yard. That is why I became defensive. And if you will take the time to read some of the posts, there was/is some attacking happening. Like I said though, from now on, if I post an ad or other sort of picture of a hot snake in a natural setting, I will include a disclaimer. If a person lives on a tenth of an acre like you described, then no, it's probably not wise to be taking his/her snakes outside. I'm lucky enough to live outside of a small town, on 14 acres of land, with very large and open front, side, and back yards. However, if the species are easily managed (like monocleds are), and the person has enough room and isn't making a threat to anyone's life by doing so, then I see no problem with getting outdoor pictures.

About my comments on my albino, I was just relating how he seemed to enjoy it (as much as any snake can "seem" to enjoy anything). I'm sure you have probably seen many herps act differently outside than they do in their cages, but I've yet to see one act worse. Each of the monocleds seemed to just enjoy the sun and were pretty content in sitting still and/or defending themselves. A large scrub python I used to have, which would nail anything inside her cage, was very mellow and pleasant when placed in the sunlight. Again, this is not me advertising or advocating for everyone to do this, but are just my observations. There are certain herps I have that I would never try to get pictures like this with, i.e. black-necked spitters and taipans. They are just too fast and would be too difficult to manage. So I do place limits on myself for activities such as these. I know which ones are relatively safe, and which are not, to attempt this with. I've yet to be surprised.

I agree that we will just have to agree to disagree (is that "agree" too many times in one sentence?). You know, in all my sitting and thinking about why hot keepers seem to clash so much, you just summed it up in three words, "familiarity breeds contempt." I had never really thought about that, but it makes perfect sense. We each view out keeping as something personal. It sets us aside from the vast majority of other herp keepers, animal keepers, and even the rest of the human population. We become accustomed to a certain way of doing it, and begin to believe that the way we do it is the only right way. When others come along who do things differently, though not necessarily incorrectly, we view it as almost an attack on the keeping aspect of our lives. I occasionally find myself almost slipping into this crevasse of negativity, but I always try to remember the b.s. I've had to put up with, and would never want to cause that in anyone else's life. That's why I try to be as helpful as possible, and you know what, even when I am, I still occasionally get attacked. Lol, I guess that's just the way it'll be until we reach peace on earth and good will toward men...hah. Anyway, I'm done with my spiel I suppose. I'll continue to be as helpful as possible, and I'm sure there will be people who continue to attack me for doing so, but that's just part of life. Thanks for helping to clear some things up.
-Chance Duncan

A nice little trueism that one is. However, what I meant by "familiarity breeds contempt." per our discusion is that the more familiar you become with a potentially dangerous situation the more you are prone to (over time) relax and show a lack of respect for a particular activity (sub-contiously of course) and make a critical mistake.

That is basically how many of our very experienced seasoned hot herpers are bit. Not to mention old salts who will go out in the open ocean in small skiff's regardless of foul weather, etc.

It never hurts to be reminded of that once in a while. I personally come from the school of thought that likes to "error on the side of caution" Theres another one for you. LOL ZACK!

"The only people that should be ripped up here are pro venomoiders, free handlers and keeper that let their snakes escape from their cages......."

I completely agree. The rest is just nit picking. There are alot of people who take pics of their snakes outside and as long as the situation is safe and under control there is nothing wrong with that.

go back and read again what was written...........its already been established that everyone was safe and the world didnt become a worse place to live because he took that cobra outside...........but LET that pic get into the right hands and life for ALL of you hot keepers will be harder yet........face facts........PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THEM AROUND........end of story.........i have nothing against them and respect those of you who can maintain them.......im into ball pythons and i know if my neighbors knew i had 130 of them in my house they would lose their lunch.........its not what we know that we have to live by its what the rest of the non reptile world doesnt know that we ALL have to be worried about........so bottom line is the pic is NOT GOOD for PR..........end of story.........and no im not bashing you chance i know nothing about you but think of mary jane smith who thinks "my god my children play outside"..........and the public outcry that will follow should she get her hands on that pic and where it was taken.............take care all

yeah, that guy has been getting flamed on every site. i think he keeps taipans without serum, and in general doesnt seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer.

posting pics of venomous in the yard can create big problems!

Do you keep AV for all the species you keep???? If you havnt noticed AV for non native species is not the easiest stuff to aquire..... I took me almost a full year to get a few vials of South African Polyvent and I was keeping bitis for a few years before that....... I can see it being harder to get AV from Australia...... If you see his animals, you will obviously see he knows what he is doing as far as keeping them healthy...... What makes you any sharper????

You gotta get some bitis species in there though.....LOL

You know, I tried keeping a juvenile gaboon once, and have thought about it again, but as beautiful as I find those snakes to be, I just need a little more activity in my life...hah. I one day may add a nice pair of EA gabs to my collection, but for now, I'm hooked on elapids. I'm contemplating getting a pair of B. aspers, but then again, they're fairly "elapid-like" for viperids. If I ever do decide to keep Bitis, you'll be the first person I contact. What all species do you maintain, by the way?
-Chance

Chance,
Are you saying that B. asper is elapid-like?
I'd like to know in what way you mean that.

Thanks,
Randal Berry

also, if you are talking about Bothrops asper, they are crotalids, not viperids.

Randal, by more "elapid-like," I'm referring to them having faster metabolisms and in general being a more active snake than most other viperids. Whereas gabs, rhinos, and the various Crotes tend to sit in one place for days on end, from what I've been told, the Bothrops tend to be a lot more active. And when I say viperids, I'm not meaning the literal Viperidae group of snakes. I'm just meaning all front fanged snakes that are not elapids. I'm putting Crotalids, true vipers, and other pit vipers in there. Sorry for whatever confusion.
-Chance

actually i think he's a few pennies short of a dollar.

i dont keep any venomous right now, but when i did of course i always kept the serum. yes, it takes a long time and yes, it takes effort. so what! you're keeping deadly snakes in your house, you better freakin prepare yourself.

all these excuses just make him look more and more like a bad experiment.

Well, of all the things I've been called online in the past, this one probably has to be one of the most rediculous. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer eh? And what makes you leap to that conclusion? That I keep PNG taipans without AV? I can guarantee you I'm not the only one, and besides, I've already explained my reasoning behind that many times over. So who are you to make a judgement call on my intelligence? On these forums, I tend to try to only help people with questions they may ask. Does that make me stupid? I occasionally get pictures of my snakes in my very large yard in a completely controlled environment. Does that make me stupid? I spell common and Latin names CORRECTLY for a change (in comparison to many hot keepers). Does that make me stupid? So really, where are you drawing this conclusion? And by all means, do tell what species you maintain and what amounts of AV you keep for each. I'm sure we'd all like to know. Unlike many of the other people you will find on these classifieds and forums, I do not keep or make or buy venomoids, I do not post pictures of myself shirtless showing off my tats in front of a dirty snake room, I do not free handle any of my venomous, and I do not try to screw people over either with pricing or just in general business practices. But ah well, I guess I'm comparatively stupid to the likes of you, so that makes me unworthy of something you have set forth. Lol, please. Again I will restate, I've seen pictures of some of the most respected and most well-known keepers and dealers of hots in a yard, and you know what, most of them probably live in town. At least I live out away from other people and have a large, open yard in which to work. So maybe until we see you start to make helpful posts on these and other forums, you should probably reserve judgement on others.
-Chance Duncan
River Valley Snakes

3 pairs of West African Gaboons..... My largest female is close to 6 ft in length....... She is a monster....LOL..... I am keeping 2 adult pairs of Rhinos and 1 pair of puff adders..... I just got a young spec cobra...... I am also keeping and breeding some very high end leopard geckos..... That all I have room for at the time but I am in the market for a nice pair of eastern diamond backs.....
Gregg

its really common sense to "leap" to that "rediculous" conclusion

sit back and read your own posts for a while, and you'll figure it out.

All one has to do is look at my responces on this thread compared to yours, and it's not incredibly difficult to see who's appearing a bit more dull, comparatively. I need not defend myself from the likes of you any longer. It's obvious you are just trying to egg on this pointless flame for whatever personal gain you believe you can achieve. Pathetic really. Once you start making useful contributions to this forum, I may then take you seriously. Until then though, you are just the child myself and many others see you as.
-Chance

Good job on shooting him down chance.Markrogers you have certenitly never been in the chatroom.chance is one of the most knowligible(did i speel that righte?) pearson that i have ever chat with on hots.If you think you are so much smarter why not you try keeping dendroaspis specis or crotalus atrox.You need to think before yoy talk.

yeah, he's really given it to me...LMAO
sorry, but i have no time for chat rooms. if chance is the most knowledgable guy you have ever chatted with, you really need to get out more often. i used to keep dendroaspis and crotalus atrox for many years.

The true hot community (excluding venomoid keepers) have enough people trying to get us down and enough people messing it up for all of us...... We really dont need to nit pick on eachother for stupid stuff like this....... I can see if he was holding the snake in his hand or trying to kiss it on the head but all he did was take a pic of it in his huge yard...... Get a clue......

im sure you all saw what happened when that knucklehead croc hunter held his 6 month old son while feeding a monster croc.......to him and those around him it was all good..........but did you see the mess it caused as every tom dick and harry wanted his head.........face facts and look at it from a level headed outside veiw.........YOU CANNOT PLACE PICS LIKE THAT IN A PUBLIC FORUM ...........way too much ammo for the non reptile loving world......and not to mention as i believe even chance mentioned in one post......what about letting other people young kids maybe who think "wow how cool"......."im getting a cobra"...."it has to be safe this dude has one in his yard"....."ill do the same" .......only maybe this kid lives next door to me or you or anyone else who does not need that animal hanging in their shed.........and as far as whos sharp and who is not.......if youve somehow looked into the future and somehow saw that you will never need immediate care for a deadly bite then i guess you dont need the AV but im sure you dont have that full of a grasp on the future.......i have fire insurance on my house.......its not cause i cant be trusted to burn the place down ........you hope you never use it but its nothing short of FOOLISH not to have ........cannot be argued with .....NOTHING SHORT OF FOOLISH END OD STORY

People what not to post on a public forum???? Like I said you should be dogging the people holding hots in their hands or cutting up a snakes face to void it...... I do not have the proper yard space to take a pic like that but, if I did, I would...... For now all my pics will be taken inside the snake room....... I like to see pics like that because sun light have a very nice effect on the snakes and shows it true coloration...... You should not make stupid statements about people but some do anyway..... And I dont think there are gonna be a hundred kids going out to buy cobras to put in their yards...... Do you look at what you write before you post????

i didnt say a hundred kids are gonna go out and buy cobras............be serious........if you cant except that in the publics eyes that the pics can do nothing but bring bad press for all who keep hots then wake up....(AND AGAIN I DONT KEEP THEM AND KNOW NEXT TO NOTHING ABOUT THEM)......heres a better idea how about we do a little test.......how about we get the pic and send it to the local paper where this "out in the middle of nowhere" pic was taken and let them run a story and we can follow it and see where it leads..........WAKE UP .......infact why dont everyone who has these pics email them to me and ill foward them the local papers where you all live........you wouldnt do that ......why ....because you know its bad press..........and yes i do read everything before i post it ...........if you dont like it then by all means dont read anymore of what i have to say.........chances are i wont be back to this forum anyway for a bit.......so save your hot air for when they try to outlaw your animals because of knuckleheads and their cameras..........PEACE

I aint looking to fight with you at all...... You have some good points but the reality is if I sent you pics of me in my house with a cobra in a cage the press would find a way to twist that around against us too..... The one that took the pic is an experiance hot keeper and knows the limits..... I know mine with my snakes...... Dont get all huffy and puffy when someone does not agree with something you said..... You seem to be a smart person asking questios that are valid and getting a responce from me........ Dont take it to heart buddy, its only the internet...... Sorry if you took it as a personal attack......

hey watch it you do not know what the hell you are talking about i am 14 but i know enouph not to buy a cobra.so shut up but then you got kids lik noniky i thinnk it was that holds gaboons.so please think before you type.i do not want this happing to me.

HAHAHHAHHAHAAA..........thats hilarious.........i think.........well no maybe not ,,,,,,,i have no idea what you just said.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

np

Oh come on!!! He has only been keeping hots for 2 freaken years, if that!!! How in the he!! can some one be so knowledgable with so little time spent in the hobby?

Dont mistake ones ability to re type what is written in a book for personal experince!!!

BTW, for any of you Chance supporters, haveing only 2 yrs experince yet is already keeping Taipans should give you a good indication on how smart Chance realy is. If you dont see past his BS then maybe you should be supporting him.

Good lord,
J

You never cease to make me laugh Jeremy. Yet your typing skills, or lack thereof, don't ever amaze me. I'm not even going to make an attempt to rebuke anything you just said, because it's obvious you are just blowing steam, just like you always do. Really, why is it you have so much of a problem with me keeping my taipans? You attacked it on venomous and now you attack it here. Are you just jealous or what? Because that's exactly what it sounds like to me. Maybe you are upset because I've figured out that I am capable of caring for them, while you still haven't managed to convince yourself of that. I can't blame you on that one though, and I can only hope your keeping abilities far outweigh your intellectual ones. You know, I don't think it would matter if I've been permanently (note I say permanently) keeping venomous for two years, or twenty. You will always have something to say to or about me. You really are pathetic on that aspect. Let it go, whatever it is you are holding onto, whether I hurt your feelings at some point or whatever, let it go. You are only making yourself look more and more like a fool.
-Chance

I think this and previous threads have proven who is the fool Chancy.

As for my grudge, I will have a grudge aginst any idiot who spits out non sense and trys to make himself out as an expert when in reality he is a poor, miserable child.

As for spelling, maybe you should converse with some of your, ha, fallowers! I feel their sentance structure and mispelling far out weight my own.

As far as my abilities go for keeping Taipans, I would manage quite well thank you. I have pervious hadnleing experince with them, Dendroaspis and everything else you think your so damn talented for handleing. I just choose to be safe rather then sorry.

Well Chancy, awaiting your next post

Later BOY,
J

I must say Jeremy, you seem to be slipping. I halfway expected something at least a little more impressive than this.

"As for my grudge, I will have a grudge aginst any idiot who spits out non sense and trys to make himself out as an expert when in reality he is a poor, miserable child."

So trying to help people is a bad thing? I'm not surprised you think so, it seems many of the people in this hobby feel that way. In the end, that'll be the reason this hobby dies. We don't even need legislators to regulate us.

"As for spelling, maybe you should converse with some of your, ha, fallowers! I feel their sentance structure and mispelling far out weight my own."

The difference there, Jeremy, is that he's a child, and you are an adult. Lol, wow, sad stuff....What state were you educated in again? And they say Arkansas is nearly last....

"As far as my abilities go for keeping Taipans, I would manage quite well thank you. I have pervious hadnleing experince with them, Dendroaspis and everything else you think your so damn talented for handleing. I just choose to be safe rather then sorry."

Yes, I think I'm so damned talented because I can handle a snake and manage to not be bitten (*sarcasm* *sarcasm* *sarcasm* in case you didn't pick up on it). Get real! You know very well I do not brag on myself or anything about me. Half the time I'm speaking on a public forum I'm having to defend myself from idiots like yourself, so who has time to brag? I can handle my taipans, as well as every other snake I've attempted to handle. Interesting that you begrudge me of that.

"Well Chancy, awaiting your next post"

I must say, I too am awaiting picking apart your next ignorant post.
-Chance

Posts regarding myself tend to at least get the forum hopping for a while. Lol, kinda funny actually. In just about all of the really big debate posts on this forum, you get a lot of logic and real thought going into both sides (yes, that's along with the crap as well). I think that's great. Even if it can be close to bickering, I'm sure there is lots to be learned from each of the threads. For instance, I learned to be a bit more selective of the pictures I use, even more so than I was before, because too many people jump to too many conclusions. If I use anything or say anything that may be construed wrong, I will be adding a disclaimer just to save myself the hassle. Yes, the people bringing up the thought that if the press got ahold of my pictures, bad things could result. But like Gaboon said, they could do the VERY same thing if they got ahold of ANY of the pictures on the classifieds. In fact, they don't even need the pictures, just the ads such as "Mamba Super Sale." I've told people about kingsnake's classifieds before, along with the fact that I keep venomous myself, and more than one of them thought surely it was illegal. Call up your state Fish and Game. You'll almost always get a no-nothing person on the phone who will tell you that it is illegal to have venomous, even when it is not. If I could, I would post ads with no pictures, but I've tried that, and the truth is, it really affects the potential to get a sale. People don't like to take the time to e-mail and ask for the picture. It could save me a lot of trouble with not having to upload and post them, but again, it's worth it to do so. We do need to restrict ourselves on our actions, but then again, if we restrict ourselves too much, the hobby will simply die.

Anyway, this thread certainly was interesting. It appears to be dying out a bit now though. I guess I can't really say though that I look forward to the next one
-Chance
River Valley Snakes