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Mark B., Sam Sweet, Robyn, Reptile Guru, other breeders, etc., please confirm or deny.....

BillyBoy Jan 27, 2004 06:43 AM

"It's a proven fact that all (except maybe Komodos, not sure with them) monitors can reproduce at
between 6 months to a year old,..."

Now I know that some of the smaller species can do this, but what about medium and large species such as salvator, salvadorii, exanthematicus, doreanus, indicus, niloticus, ornatus, melinus, dumerilii, varius, etc.?? If this is the case, how come there are not more cbb babies of even one of these species? I know all about the other issues with nesting, etc, but I just haven't heard of (what I would consider) very young females of any of the above species even producing eggs. To me this just sounds like another outlandish claim made by a delusional hobbyist a few posts down. Of course, I may be wrong (not an uncommon occurrence, LOL), but for someone to make a sweeping statement like this (PROVEN fact the ALL monitors are capable of reproducing at under a year) is just wrong in my opinion. Please, anyone with any information or firsthand experience (other than SHvar with his stories, which I'm sure he'll tell us all about with no substantiation) about females of any of the above species dropping eggs before age 1, please enlighten me. Billy

Replies (6)

mkbay Jan 27, 2004 10:24 AM

Hi Billy,

For African varanids it is fairly consistant that they breed at the 2-3 year old age; many people say once they reach a certain length they can breed, i.e. V. salvator. The problem being so many wild-caught animals nobody knows their real age when caught, regardless of their size. In Journal of PAleontology there is an article out soon by Erikson, Buffrenil, Bayless on the growth and age determination on Megalania prisca and other living varanids which will show people, any people how to accurately determine age of your varanus - a simple procedure non-detrimental to them, and that will help show how old varanids when they are able to VIABLE young.

I have seen a 10 inch total length V. exanthematicus drop eggs - that does not mean she was able to breed does it? Yes her cycling was correct, but does it mean she could properly produce young if fertilized? maybe yes, maybe no??

I have never read or discussed this topic with anyone who has told me, proven to me ALL Varanus can breed within first calender year of their birth - lots of people have said it, yes, but the proof is in the pudding, and nobody has shown me the pudding to-date. You can ask Prof. Dr. Georg Horn, who has kept records of Varanus reproduction for nearly 30 years and his work does not show this trend either...maybe we "scientists" are stupid as one visitor to this forum always says, and do not see farther than our own noses - but I too would like to see hard data (= dates, numbers, temps, photo-periods etc) and be delighted to see this, as then I learn a few things more about Varanus than before!
cheers,
markb

FR Jan 27, 2004 10:40 AM

Whomever said that may be about six months off. I have experience with several of the species you mention, and generally they do reproduce within 18 months of age.

Now heres another broadbased statement. This site, makes lots and lots of goofy errors in thinking about husbandry. For instance, many here say, their conditions are ideal or perfect. In my opinion, there is no such animal. What is ideal or perfect is results. Of course that is subjective and only important to the individual keeper and is always temporary(for the moment)

Another problem with husbandry is, its driven by people and we make fatal mistakes, again an example. I have hatched and raised beautiful individual monitors, only to make a stupid mistake and kill them dead. In this case, you can say the husbandry was great, as this monitor grew and was a picture of health. But the keeper(me) is actually the husbandry and I killed it. So the husbandry sucked. This is very common with keepers on this site.

The reason I mention the above is, HUSBANDRY, controls what the captive animals do, not the animals themselves. That goes for all of us, good or not so good.

Monitors as species and individuals have a reproductive potential. What that is exactly, is unknown. But.

They have a potential to reproduce normally in under 18 months. IF your going to take this out of context and make it an exact statement. Some have proven to do so. Others still need to be tested. That statement can be interpided in at least two ways. One is, some of the species you mentioned have do so. Or some individuals of some of the species have done so.

By the way, you may want to include KD's on that list. As I visited a zoo that had one year old females, and they said, they were producing ovum already. (To me, that means they are ready)How they knew that, I do not know, its simply what they told me. They also mentioned that the females were too small to reproduce. I wonder how they knew that too.

As to why its not being done by lots of people is very funny and odd to me. In business, you look for a model when trying to accomplish something. With some things there are models and with some there are no models. With breeding monitors, a model exsists. Its as simple as following it. Why more people don't is sort of magic.

About that mentality. There have been a million or so, Savs imported in the past four or five years. Why aren't they being commonly bred? That thought is very funny to me. I believe, if you dispersed that many monitors, without instruction, a huge percentage would die, and a decent percentage would produce.(just numbers) But they are not. That to me means the general widespread husbandry(understanding) is actively stopping them from reaching events normal to them. Reproduction IS normal to them.

In my opinion, if you want to see successful normal life events, then you should follow successful models. But sadly, that is being fought tooth and claw. People want to tell monitors what to do, not ask them. That indeed is a problem. People here think you have to do something to allow life events, in reality, its not true, you simply need to get your butt out of the way and let them do what they have been doing for millions of years. Its as simple as, give whats beneficial and remove whats not. In most cases, that would include removing us.

Lastly, instruction is givin on this forum by people who keep and breed monitors(in many levels) By people who have never ever done either, to people who have bred them but never hatched an egg, to people thinking their experts because they have a producing female. To people who have totally failed in keeping monitors but give advice as if they were experts in successful life events. To people who judge literature and spout it as if it was experience. The problem is, your responsible for who you listen too and taking it in proper context. Remember the forumites are expert at "out of context". Good day F

Jody P. Jan 27, 2004 11:14 AM

The problem with that again is tunnel vision.

Using words like All, Perfect, Best. In using that then everyone assumes every species of monitor and every individual can and will produce at that age. The problem is there are alot of factors coming into play.

Would be better to say it has happened or some of them might or can. (of course in saying that, you should be ready to back it up too).

Saying perfect, best, or probly even ideal when talking about husbandry or cage setups is also wrong. None of us know what perfect is for them.

Words are tricky this way and when making a claim you should becareful.

I myself do not know statistics of this species or that. I worry more about my own monitors. I have yet to read 1 yes 1 monitor book. As close as I got to that was reptiles magazine. Everything I know is all from trial and error practices. I think some people read into books a bit to much myself.

Have a nice day!!

SamSweet Jan 27, 2004 06:37 PM

I do not know of any documentation that any monitor species can reproduce at 1 year of age in the field. Based on growth rates, it is barely possible that some individuals of the small species could come close to doing this under unusually favorable conditions, but it certainly isn't going to be general or common. Monitors have a variable and often lengthy incubation period, and hatchlings usually appear a month or so into the "best" season (whether a warm interval or a wet one, depending on the region), while adults usually breed 1-3 months after hatchlings appear. What this means is that the first opportunity for a hatchling to breed "on schedule" would be far too soon (age of 1-3 months), while the next chance is at 13-15 months. That may happen occasionally with some of the Odatria, but field data indicate that first breeding at 26-30 months (in the second full year) is most likely.

There are very few places in nature where monitors are able to maintain maximum activity, foraging and growth rates for the full annual cycle; usually a cool or cold season, or a dry season, restricts their activity and slows growth (or enforces that by reducing prey availability) for at least 2-3 months, often more. Captive conditions can be uniformly "good", and it should be no surprize that with good practices captives can reach a greater size at one year of age than can wild individuals. Because the normal physiological cues that trigger sexual maturation in wild monitors are usually lacking or disrupted in captivity, both the onset and cessation of reproduction can be weird.

robyn@ProExotics Jan 28, 2004 08:27 PM

i was not ignoring this post, i just thought that other folks had addressed it pretty well
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

BillyBoy Jan 29, 2004 07:16 AM

>>i was not ignoring this post, i just thought that other folks had addressed it pretty well
>>-----
>>robyn@proexotics.com
>>
>>Pro Exotics Reptiles

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