Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have found a few listings suggesting the Green redtailed Ratsnake is venomous. Can anyone shed any light on this?

I have a lovely pair of these WC and am curious.

Thanks.

I have never heard of Gonyo's being venomous. I have had a few of these also and taken a few tags from them, one in the chin, with no ill effects.

They may (as in maybe) have vaguely toxic saliva, but they have no fangs and aren't considered dangerous in the least.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

The argument could be made that Gonyosoma spp. are technically venomous. On the other hand, I think the argument could also be made that they are not dangerous to humans.

Bryan Greig Fry has done several studies on venomous colubrids and has included Gonyosoma in these studies. He has often stated, including on this forum, that the difference between venomous and non-venomous snakes is best described on a sliding scale.

Furthermore, he talks about "rapid prey death" as useful factor in classifying "dangerous" snakes. I'm certain he's stated in at least one of his papers that rapid prey death is not observed in Gonyosoma spp.

But I won't speak for him any further. His papers are easily found online and he has been kind enough to include links to PDF versions of his papers on this forum. I don't think you'd have to go back more than a few pages on this forum to find some of his posts.

Lastly, I have received minor bites from some of my Gonyosoma specimens and have noticed it hurts more than more solid bites from other species. How much of this is due to dentition and how much is due to venom components in the saliva is not something I can answer. Heck, I can't rule out confirmation bias given I was bitten after I read the papers.

I'll see if I can get Bryan to come over here and post.

The main reason for gonosoma's bad bite has to do with those nice grasping teeth it uses to catch birds. However, what ever venom may or may not be present is of far less concern than my ex wives bites (lol). been bit several times. Bloody-but harmless.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

LOL. I've never been married but I have to admit some of the women I've dated scare me more than any venomous snake I've worked with.

But back to the point, I don't believe I have ever received a bad enough bite from a Gonyosoma to get the full effect of their teeth. They've really been more of a scrape than anything and the skin has only be slightly punctured, not torn.

I've been bitten by Thamnophis and Nerodia - two other genera that could be described as venomous - and suffered localised itching and redness. I assume I have a mild allergy to their venom. The nips from the Gonyosoma I keep have felt more similar to that, although without the itching and rash, than say a similar bite from an Amazon Tree Boa.

Just an anecdotal observation. I've got one very large Gonyosoma who I believe could tear me up nicely. Her head is probably 5 mm wider than my next biggest adult. Fortunately I worked with venomous snakes for so long I'm in the habit of not being bitten.

I assume they have the Duvernoy's glands with some toxic secretions, as it would be similar to the Coelognathus radiatus mentioned down below by Dr. Frye....
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=305012,305012...
I wouldn't imagine a bite would be a dangerous situation, if you're not allergic. The snake would probably have to get a good mouthfull, and chew for some time to get any secretions working anyway. Just a pennies worth

TC

>>I have found a few listings suggesting the Green redtailed Ratsnake is venomous. Can anyone shed any light on this?
>>
>>I have a lovely pair of these WC and am curious.
>>
>>Thanks.

Hi there

Yes they are, just are virtually all other colubrids. This is because venom evolved right at the base of the Colubroidea tree (advanced snakes) which is what allowed them to dump the heavy muscle that is the prey capture technique used by the primative snakes such as pythons.

However, they are by no means dangerous, just as the vast majority of the 'colubrid' snakes kept widely today are similarly harmless. There is a remarkable difference between being venomous from a technical perpective and being dangerously venomous. Each of the 'colubrid' families have lethal or dangerous species but the majority are not able to cause notable human effects (although they may have enough venom to help settle down a frog, which is the entire point of having venom).

Gonyosoma are cool snakes, we had a big collection of them while doing the initial stages of the 'colubrid' venom research. Enjoy

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

>>>>I have found a few listings suggesting the Green redtailed Ratsnake is venomous. Can anyone shed any light on this?
>>>>
>>>>I have a lovely pair of these WC and am curious.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks.
>>
>>Hi there
>>
>>Yes they are, just are virtually all other colubrids. This is because venom evolved right at the base of the Colubroidea tree (advanced snakes) which is what allowed them to dump the heavy muscle that is the prey capture technique used by the primative snakes such as pythons.
>>
>>However, they are by no means dangerous, just as the vast majority of the 'colubrid' snakes kept widely today are similarly harmless. There is a remarkable difference between being venomous from a technical perpective and being dangerously venomous. Each of the 'colubrid' families have lethal or dangerous species but the majority are not able to cause notable human effects (although they may have enough venom to help settle down a frog, which is the entire point of having venom).
>>
>>Gonyosoma are cool snakes, we had a big collection of them while doing the initial stages of the 'colubrid' venom research. Enjoy
>>
>>Cheers
>>Bryan
>>-----
>>Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
>>Deputy Director
>>Australian Venom Research Unit
>>University of Melbourne
>>
>>www.venomdoc.com

Hey Dr. Fry,

Thanks for taking the time to email. I think you emailed me before I bought them...just wanted to check other opinions. The most serious tag I have gotten was from one of these beauties, who chewed the hell out of my thumb and I got very wuzzy afterwards, but it may have been from all the blood! These are great, beautiful snakes that hood up like cobras if they need too. I am hoping to breed them, as they are so umcommon CB and I prefer my animals that way. Oh well, the man I bought them from was using his batch as food for his cobra, so I know they are getting a better life with me.

Cheers.

Norm Hill
Seattle, WA

Hi Norm

Glad you ended up getting them Which colour morph (they come in a wide range of colours)? I'd say the wuzzyness was not due to the venom but rather you being a big wuss about the blood

Post some pics so that we can admire them

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

>>Hi Norm
>>
>>Glad you ended up getting them Which colour morph (they come in a wide range of colours)? I'd say the wuzzyness was not due to the venom but rather you being a big wuss about the blood
>>
>>Post some pics so that we can admire them
>>
>>Cheers
>>Bryan
>>-----
>>Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
>>Deputy Director
>>Australian Venom Research Unit
>>University of Melbourne
>>
>>www.venomdoc.com

Hey Bryan,

I will accept the wuss part from you. I saw your website and you deal in far more frightening animals then me. For me, it was a nasty bite...yech...lots of blood. I am currently raising two Southern Scrubs from hatchlings, and well, I am getting used to being nailed. Here is a good question for you, what type of infection/parasite can transfer to us humans from snake bites? I have seen some narly ones on this website, and have experienced a few nasty bites myself, but they always heal fine and go way. Yet, I have always wondered due the parasites pass into us from bites? I assume not or every kid with a reptile would be sick(other then the threatening "Salmonella" risk). This was part of what made me wonder about the Green redtailed bite. Before I never gave a [bleep] if I got bitten by one of my animals, until someone tried to convince me(via email) these guys were poisonous. They are even listed on the venomous.net site as such...and so I got a little worried about what happens if you are bitten.
By the way, mine animals are green/blue. I will borrow the digital camera from work and snap pics. I really want to get more into this species, because of all my snakes, these are really some of my favorite ones...very interactive and fiesty...but nobody seems to really be into them?! I REALLY WANT A Leucistic and/or Yellow variation.

Thanks.

Norm Hill
Seattle, WA
1:1 Green Redtailed Ratsnakes
1:1 Red Blood Pythons
1:1 Black Bloods
1:1 Children's Python
1:1 Southern Scrubs
3.0 Isabel Candoia
2:3 Solomon Island boas
1.0 Sand Boa
1.0 Halmahera Boa
1:1 Chuckwallas