Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just want to make sure I understand correctly before I go out and buy some of this stuff. The supplement will provide all of the nutritional, calcium, and protein needs so that I could get rid of crickets (except for the occasional thrill of the hunt..lol), pellets, multivitamins, calcium dust w/d3, and UVB altogether? So theoretically I could (not that I would) feed my dragons only iceburg lettuce dusted with the sandfire supplement and they would be completely healthy even if they were raised on it since babies? If this is indeed true it seems like it would be the holy grail of diets for raising BD's

Also I'm not completely clear on the difference between the VGF and the VMF. Would the VGF be for babies to subadults that are still growing and the VMF be for adults that don't need as much protein?

One more thing, if I could play the devil's advocate here. While I trust that the SDR developed formula sounds to be really good, what is to keep T-rex from cutting corners on the ingredients to cut costs and raise profits? Let's face it this is from the same company that sells and markets Calci-sand as being safe and digestible. Are there any checks being done that will ensure that the SDR formula is followed in content and and quantity over time? Please note that i'm not accusing T-rex of doing this, just being cautiously skeptical for the sake of mine and other BD's that may come to rely on this all-in-one solution.

Thanks in advance for answering my ??'s

I'll be interested in the reply too.
About the Iceberg..I would think it would still be capable of causing very loose stools and dehydration since it is mostly water.
Unfortunately, this is one of the things that a newbie might take away from the recent conversations (not you), but it should be clarified that iceberg lettuce isn't a good choice no matter what, nor most lettuces for that matter.
I ain't even gettin in to the UVB thing...LOL!!
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www.classylizard.com

"The supplement will provide all of the nutritional, calcium, and protein needs so that I could get rid of
crickets (except for the occasional thrill of the hunt..lol), pellets, multivitamins, calcium dust w/d3,
and UVB altogether?"

The VGF and the VMF will provide all the macro and micro nutrients a dragon needs to grow and thrive...the potential problem lies in whether they are eating enough of the dusted salads. Nutrients aside a dragon needs a certain amount of calories of each macro nutrient to grow and just do dragon things...lol. Lisa's dragons will each alot of veggies, so she should not have problems. Others might not have dragons that eat a large amount of greens. What it comes down to is the dragon owner monitoring how much there BD is eating. In theory and logically, a BD that eats his fill of veggies liberally dusted with the t-rex products will get all the nutrients and not need anything else. As for UVB, for me it does not factor into the equation. I don't use them and my dragons are fine. They have only been supplemented with the t-rex products for almost a year now. I still feed insects to my dragons and use the ICB formula.

"So theoretically I could (not that I would) feed my dragons only iceburg
Lettuce dusted with the sandfire supplement and they would be completely healthy even if they were
raised on it since babies? If this is indeed true it seems like it would be the holy grail of diets for
raising BD's."

Theoretically, yes that could work, not that I would do it either...simple for the reason that I don't think growing babies will eat enough of it(I know lisa will tell me otherwise...lol), not that I don't have faith in the formulation. I agree with christy about the iceburg lettuce also, but I do use only one green to dust the food onto (usually romain or a green). If someone were to succeed raising a dragon i this matter, It would not mean it is the holy grail or diets, it is just a well formulated diet. I think what needs to be understood is that nutrients are nutrients, what source they come from is not always as important as how much of each is present and in what ratios.

"I'm not completely clear on the difference between the VGF and the VMF."

The VGF is meant for growing BD's and can be used for gravid females. It contains more protein, calcium and d3 than the VMF, all of which our growing little ones need...lol.

"While I trust that the SDR developed
formula sounds to be really good, what is to keep T-rex from cutting corners on the ingredients to
cut costs and raise profits?"

This one is easy...the production of the product line is actively overseen by Allen Repashy. He is the person that developed the formulations, and his name is on every bottle. These are really his products, the are just manufactured, marketed, and distributed by t-rex. One added thing that is nice about the powders, is that there is minimal processing going on...some ingredients are milled, and then all are blended in the ratios that that perticular formula calls for. This is not true with pellets. Most(if not all)are extruded, which requires some heating of the product. This could have an effect on some of the nutrients in these products. Anyway, I hope this helped a bit.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

"Nutrients aside a dragon needs a certain amount of calories of each macro nutrient to grow and just do dragon things...lol. Lisa's dragons will each alot of veggies, so she should not have problems."

Hmmm lets see how I can respond to this one ...... LOL

Yep, my dragons devour veggies and pellets from day 3 after hatching. You yourself are having problems getting that new girl of yours to eat live worms lol

"simple for the reason that I don't think growing babies will eat enough of it(I know lisa will tell me otherwise...lol)"

Your right! I am going to tell you otherwise LOL....

My babies get veggies and pellets from day 3 after hatching and they do great. They don't get introduced to occassional "live food" until they are approx 2 - 3 weeks old. Occassional being approx 2 times per week... more of a treat than a routine food item.

I do want to make one thing CLEAR .... I do not use lettuce of any kind as a staple. My main staple veggies are Mustard greens, Endive and Escarole.

As to the T rex sups.... this will be my first breeding season that I have been using them. I DO intend to raise my first clutch as a "test". I have 28 eggs in the incubator now and 14 will be raised as I did last year and the other 14 will be raised using the T rex veggie growth formula. I want to see if I find any differences between the babies, such as growth rate, color, activity, etc. I will be making another page on my site and keeping records of growth for comparison. This way I can see at a glance and any other people interested can also research it.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

I think that is an awesome idea Lisa. A test study. However, there is such different growth rates in a clutch how would you know if you split them up evenly. Such as what if all the quicker growers end up in the way you've done it before and the smaller, slow starters end up in the bunch that recieves the T-rex supps? I would do one clutch from that pairing with the T-Rex and one clutch from the SAME pairing the other way. It ssems it would be more scientific and the outcome would carry a little more weight? Just my thoguths adn P.O. What do you think?

Robert

What do you think?
>>

I think that having half the clutch raised each way should be ok. I plan to also do the same thing with Buffy's first clutch as a "back up" study group.

The problem with having one of Lacie's clutches tested this way and then waiting for another is temperatures will be slightly different, length of days, etc. This is the only way to ensure they will all be raised in identical environments.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

And.........

The odds of getting all the "slow starters" in one group and not having an even distribution is actually VERY slim. lol
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

I think it's great that you are doing this study, I am curious to see the results. Gollum and Smeagol got their first dusted salads today so hopefully they will like the taste of the stuff. I'm hoping it will turn them into 1000 gram monsters...lol.

Yeah but it is possible. Also if you are using the same setups for the second clutch that hatches how could the temps, or anything else vary for that matter? Especially if you were monitoring them? I'm not trying to pick you to pieces or anything just curious as to how a study like this could be explored by others. It's still a good idea no matter how you decide to tackle it.

Robert

>>Yeah but it is possible. Also if you are using the same setups for the second clutch that hatches how could the temps, or anything else vary for that matter? Especially if you were monitoring them?

They could very easily ... Right now I have windows open and air temps in this room of low to mid 70's. In another couple months or so, I will be having days with the AC on and that keeps the room around 80 degrees with odd days of windows open. Then another couple months I will have AC on all the time and the room will be 80 - 81 degrees. I do not change my bulbs with the seasons, so basking temps do vary from month to month... maybe only a couple degrees here and there, but they differ all the same.
Also no matter how you light your cages, if they have a view of the outside, they seem to "tune in" to the natural daylight cycle.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

Bill is on the mark. Just want to add that with the exception for the rhacodactylus diets, none are designed to be "meal replacements". The VMF,VGF and ICB are designed to "complete" the nutritional value of your veggies and insects.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

If you use these supplements then there is no need for other vit/calc supplements..and as for UV, this is probably going to start one of those Great Debates but... If you are supplementing your dragons with D3 on a regular basis then UV is not needed. UV is the catlyst dragons need to produce thier own D3. However Im not saying throw away your UV lights. The broad spectrum of light that most reptile lights give off is still a necessity.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

Bill, Paul, and Lisa. Thank you for answering my questions regarding the formula. I have since made a trip to the store this afternoon to pick up a bottle of the VGF and feel much more comfortable about what I can expect to get from the product and that I am using it in the proper way for my beloved dragons.

Tommorrow I will see if the bosses approve of their new supplements..lol. Smeagol is 8 months, 17 1/2 inches, and 340 grams while Gollum is 6-8 months, 10 inches (tail nip, prob. 15-17in with full tail), and 210 grams. Recently Gollum lost his appetite, so they both went to the vet and just finished treatment for coccidia and hookworms. I have been giving the Accidiphliz (sp?) to help stimulate appetite. He has been eating his greens but not gotten back to crickets as of yet. Luckily he has not lost any weight and has actually gained some through this tough time. What I am hoping is that with the VGF he will still get the protien, vitamins, and calcium through his veggies so I don't need to be so concerned getting it from the dusted crickets that he is not eating. Good news is that he is shown improvement and been much more lively and active the last few days so I am hoping he will be making a strong comeback with the added help from the VGF.

As far as the great UV debate goes, I just replaced my old UVB bulbs with brand new Reptisun 5.0's and will continue to as an extra insurance policy even though I do feel Bill makes some good arguments towards D3 through supplementation only.