Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, here it goes. I really hope this doesn't cause any bad blood. This is a sincere question.

I have bred a few "hybrids" in the past, which I don't think are "technically" hybrids, actually crosses (please someone correct me if I'm wrong), consisting of ratsnakes that are known to intergrade naturally. A few I have posted on this forum (below). In my opinion, this is no different than breeding two snakes of the same sub-species that hale from different localities. These snakes would have never mated naturally, just as the snakes I have produced. But never the less I have gotten just short of a beating from many people who are adamantly against hybrids. Which by the way, I have some disagreements with also- guttata x getula "jungle corns" for example. Hybridizing snakes of different species, not to mention different genus!, is quite disturbing IMO, but each to his own. I just hope that more locale breeding will become common place, as to save pure specimens as they occurred in the wild for generations to come. Now to get back to my point, I believe that creating "natural intergrades" does not fall in this category. There is not too much else I can say except that I know that this can be a touchy subject. Though, I believe that if represented honestly these man-made intergrades would cause no harm, and when this is done it would actually help the hobby rather than harm. Unlike the breeders out there representing "pure" snakes which in fact are not i.e., yellow and everglades rats!LOL

So please put in your two cents. Once again, I am not a "troll", and I believe that if this is read carefully, then one will see that this is not your every day "hybrid" debate. BTW, no I have not got into an argument about this recently.LOL I respect the opinions that I have read from many of you and would like to hear yours on this subject. Thanks. Later on-Brett

I believe that crossing two different subspecies is called intergrades and hybrids are crosses between different species.

As for my thoughts: I don't see an issue in it. People get all "hot off the collar" because someone chose to put a male & female snake together. It is crazy. God gave us the animals for our benefit & pleasure. I wonder if these same people are mad at past generations for their work on the domestication of dogs [I have yet to discover a wild pop of weeney dogs]. Just as in other "livestock" or "domestication", selective breeding is a common way to produce a more desired specimen.

I think some people actually think THEY are contributing to the survival of a species by breeding only "pure" subspecies and not integrading other genetics. Two comments: one day soon, scientists will separate populations of existing subspecies and classify them into two new subspecies (or a new species)and then those who are trying to maintain "pure" subspecies will have been told they actually created an intergrade. Also, how many people are releasing their offspring back into the wild?

We need to understand what this is all about: the PET trade. we are "creating" pets ... animals as captives for our own enjoyment. Don't get me wrong, I think it is good to maintain "locality" or "pure" lines of animals, however, I don't see anything wrong with producing other doesticated animals and "labeling" them as such.

...

Good points about intergrade vs hybrid. Personally, I don't really care what people do with their own snakes but I personally prefer the natural-occurring versions of the species' or subspecies' look. Hybrids just don't work for me.
A quick point about Yellows and Everglades; Kathy Love's site used to have a page that discussed that very issue. She and Bill had found the original description of Everglades Ratsnakes and it actually describes a snake more like what most people assume is an Intergrade between the two subspecies. They mused that perhaps the naturally occuring color is what we are looking at as intergrdes and the more colorful ones are actually the result of selective breeding. I wish I'd kept a copy of that page because she took it down after last season. It was an interesting point.

Not only that Mark, but this draining of the Glades for irrigation purposes, which many believe to be the culprit allowing everglades and yellows to intergrade in the first place has been happenning since the early 1800s'. Also I have bred yellow and glades rats together and have gotten both extremes.
While visiting a friend in south Florida, he showed me many ratsnakes caught near lake Okeechobee. I tell you what. There is a lot more variation than just deep orange to yellow. Half of them didn't even look like intermediates, but something different; olives, all shades of brown. Any way just a few thoughts, and a few things that were shared with me over the years.

I personally have no problems with it. In fact, I had a jungle corn for a short time myself. I think they just go to show that the taxonomy of snakes hasn't been properly implemented. I don't even tell professors about jungle corns anymore when they say a species can't breed with another species and produce fertile offspring. Either they need to change that, or they need to put kings and rats in the same genus (which I think we can agree isn't too sensible). Anyway, back to the point, intergrades happen all the time in nature and you can never know the lineage of wc animals, so some of the "purest" founder stock have probably had some influences from other local rats. No one segregates snakes in the wild, it's just not very commonplace for them to breed with other species/subspecies as compared to their own. Therefore, I would consider the hardcore purist breeders (for example, someone who only breeds corns collected from a certain side of a certain road) to be doing something no more unnatural than those who breed intergrades that occur geographically. I mean, if all wild breedings were so pure, we'd see a lot more inbreeding in the wild and probably more defects/disorders. Besides that, intergrades probably add some hybrid vigor and after a few generations of consistent breeding back to one type, pretty much all visible traces of the crossed ancestor will be gone. At what point is it misrepresenting a snake to say that it is pure? You can't even say that with certainty about wild snakes, but what if my black rat's great grandpa was half gray rat? Would the breeder be obligated to tell me about that even if all traces of its influence were long gone? Well I hope I've made some valid points. I just got back from class and it's still a little too early for me, so excuse any mistakes or erroneous claims I may have made.

The Biological Species Concept, contrary to popular belief, has never been widely accepted. There are papers arguing against it's usefulness since it was originally proposed.

The reason why it's so commonly taught is that it's a useful way to get students thinking about what a species is, or more importantly, what a species is not. Unfortunately, that's led to it being taught dogmatically, at least at the high school level.

So I'm surprised to hear that you've had professors teach it as dogma, as I gather you have. I certainly had the Biological Species Concept taught to me in a dogmatic fashion in high school, but it was introduced much more conceptually in college.

So I can understand your statement that they should change it, but that's not necessary as it's widespread use does not mean it acceptance was ever widespread.

Dogmatic teaching of the BSC is also a pet peeve of mine. I encourage you to read up on it and make conceptual arguments with your professors if they are indeed teaching this as fact. I certainly would have if it had been taught to me that way.

A good place to start is reading on circular overlaps/speciation. The Ensatina salamanders in California are a good model of this.

Some good points Kevin. As an eye witness to a yellow rat attempting to mate with a (very old) road kill banded water snake I can attest to their penchant for breeding with anything!
Still, some integrety is retained in spot populations that make them discernable. A great example here in Florida is our population of anery Red Rats that still seem to hang on in a specific area.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

i honestly agree with what you have said id say more but you have explained to the t...i agree

So far all the responses to this potentially heated topic have been very civilized....so far.....
My 2 cents is that hybrids and/or intergrades are just fine as long as an attempt is made to keep track of what you plan to sell if you are a dealer. In otherwords, as long as nobody intentionally misrepresents an animal. As for me personally, I would probably shy away from producing hybrids, but would not really think twice about breeding, for example, a black rat to a yellow rat (the "greenish" rat being such a well-known intergrade that it makes a good example). I am considering a black/texas mix, and understand that they do produce natural intergrades where their ranges overlap.
All in all, a good, intelligent discussion. I don't think I read the word "mutt" in a single post...yet.

np
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I think that there are two main issues here. The first is honest representation of snakes that are being sold. If you know that the snake that you are selling has some mixing in its background, tell the buyer what you know. Breeders should keep records. I think it is quite clear that people want and will pay handsomely for an unusual looking snakes that catch their eyes. Why should any of us object?

There is a second issue. These snakes should never be released into the wild. Most likely doing so would cause no harm but we should always error on the side of caution.

As a NA milksnake breeder for 15 years I am more than a little familiar with the concept of locality breeding.To be a TRUE locality breeder you must CONTINUALLY add to the bloodline from known outside sources.I have found that even the most staunch locale breeders often just buy from other breeders with the same locale to outcross instead of adding wc animals. I think this is a problem for a couple reasons...the first is that it over-represents that phenotype in captivity(like "pure"glades)and the second is that keeping the "pure" flow of blood(as well as aknowledging the NEED for new wc specimens)which is the reason most locale-breed to begin with!
There is plenty of room for every type of breeder,but I think it totally irresponsible to breed ANY animals without a known disposition.....that is to say if noone wants to BUY them,DONT produce them!! There are too many "kittens"see,not "mutts",lol)out there as is for those who just want a cheap snake...A GOOD example of this is the crosses I will be attempting within the getula complex...with all the different genes within the brooksi/goini/getula line MULTI morphs should be some spectacular animals. PURELY domestic,their "mutt" offspring will still be well within most "species-pure"sights.
Realize that there are not many new discussions on this topic anymore and I had a well-recieved post on the hybrid forum a couple months back based on the same subject. Just my opinion,Jeff

I don't particularly care whether you call a man-made subspecies cross a hybrid or an intergrade. I'm against them, whatever the name.

The logical ultimate outcome of continued crossing of subspecies is to lose the extremes and have nothing left but rat snakes with a single, more or less intermediate appearance. No Everglades rats, no black rats, just all greenish rats. I like the looks of Everglades rats too much to want that to happen.

As far as I know, I have never purchased a man-made subspecies cross. I see no reason to change that policy.

Paul Hollander

Please elaborate on the differences between why crossing getula ssp. is "good" and obsoleta ssp. is "bad", in your opinion, Jeff. Are you saying that obsoleta is far less genetically variable than getula? Or do you just have dollar signs in mind? I have respected all of the opinions on this thread, as I do yours, I just don't see the inherent goodness of one cross of sub-species over an other. The main purpose that I even conducted these long term breedings was to introduce new genetics into a group of 'bubblegum' rats. If I read your post correctly then I see no differences. Later on-Brett

I just think any captive breeding must have a end result that can be argued FOR on this forum or anywhere. If someone were to try and breed PURE greenish rats for locality...more power to them. It wasnt the $$ so much as supply/demand....Producing or reproducing snakes is now to a point where its not IF you can breed but IF you SHOULD. Why bother putting forth all the time/effort it takes to produce something that either has been done or is too easy to bother??Refine traits,create morphs or redefine standards set by others! For someone to try and produce "pure"glades(for Paul's example)would be futility BEYOND selective breeding to something more resembling line breeding anyway!They are OUR definitions of species.....not a books.The snakes themselves dont see the difference,why should we?Jeff

Jeff, Like I said in my last post, a "greenish" rat was not the objective. Creating a more desirable snake to my EYE, was. At least initially. I in fact have received many e-mails on those snakes. To my surprise it has been the "greenish" rats that folks have asked me about, not the yellow/everglades, which by the way have nice red tongue. Hmmmm, makes me think. But that is another issue.

I do not claim and never have made any such statements regarding these snakes as some 'conquest'. That would be absurd. Just posted some pics (as well as some comments) of what I believe are some eye pleasing individuals, and have tried to represent them for what I believe them to be. There are many levels in this HOBBY, and many pocket books to match. It seems that we disagree on the exact definition of what an attractive and desirable snake is(and how much you should have to pay for it)lol, but I will go out on a ledge and say that we can agree on ONE of the purposes for breeding a pair. -Brett

Yes,there is plenty of room in the hobby for every type of person and breeder.I have been one who has over-produced in the past and its the animals that have suffered...less time to spend per individual.To me,being able to MOVE my babies is now more important because of this.I dont want others to have to go through that....
I am just talking from experience that most that stay in the hobby for the long run appreciate a good arguement,lol. The snow is cold and deep so we try and talk a good game until the snakes start crawling again.We can agree to disagree,but just make sure we do it intelligently,lol.Jeff

np

Hi, Brett.

Just call me slow-poke, but here's my 2 cents worth.

First, since being involved mainly with Asian ratsnakes since 1988, I have to say I've been adamant about not crossing localities, let alone subspecies, species, or genera. There's just too much we don't know about the Asians and they're too rare in most cases in the hobby to waste the known stock we have. For instance: the Dione's Ratsnakes (Steppes Rats) have a humungous range and no subspecies have been named. For me to cross my original Ukrainian, Chinese, and South Korean Dione's Rats would have meant losing the genes and the integrity of what those snakes represented. I've since just kept the South Koreans which I think will eventually be named a separate subspecies, at least, and possibly even a separate species from the Chinese dione.

I haven't kept American ratsnakes too much, but have kept a few species, mainly Pantherophis (Elaphe) guttata. While some subspecies may cross with other subspecies in a species (group), they mainly do that where the two subspecies come into contact. Sure, most genes flow throughout the species, but why not maintain the integrity of the "look" you want. Recently a black rat was posted from New Jersey, I think. It was an awesome snake. The way I look at it is why cross two nice animals to make a mutt. But then I'm not perfect, let me tell you about the mutts I'm making...hahahah.

Arguably the most widely bred and crossed and created snake species in the world is the "corn" snake. Some folks think the Great Plains Ratsnake is a separate species, but for the sake of argument here let's call it a subspecies of the corn snake, P. guttata. Now in my collection we have had quite a number of corns in the past and they have been mixed together a lot, mostly because I didn't have locality info on them anyway. Well, anyway, I sold off most of them in the last few years and ended up with one hypo corn (mutt) and one Brazos Island Ratsnake, P. g. meahllmorum. Naturally, I bred them to see what the offspring would look like. I don't see any problem with this because this species is so domesticated to begin with. I'll let it rest at that.

Ok, then here's what happened next in the guttata department. A couple years ago I bought a CB pair of P. g. "intermontana", Western Great Plains Ratsnakes. Very neat snakes and very distinct. I don't want to lose the "look", so I'll keep this morph "pure". I also bought another pair of Brazos Island Ratsnakes...different subspecies of guttata/emoryi. This is a very interesting morph also and I plan to keep this morph "pure".

So, here's my final plan, to make my main point. I'm going to breed the "intermontana" to the hypo x Brazos cross to get the hardy genes and smaller snake genes into my "mutt" line. Then I'm going to breed the Brazos in again and possibly another mutation besides the "hypomelanism".

The point: folks are going to do what they want to do and so what. None of these snakes should ever be put back into the wild anyway. Their genes are lost to the species, so it doesn't much matter what happens to them. They are pets. Not that they are just here for our pleasure, but they are dependent on us, and they should be treated with respect. They are dependent on our care to survive.

Some of them are going to be pure because some people like the pure look and want to work with just that form. They try to keep a certain locality in order to get the look they want. Other snakes are going to be crosses, because some folks want a designer corn...LOL. I like both when it comes to corns, but man don't mess with my Asian Ratsnakes.

PS: I don't condone crossing species to make hybrids, but I would like to cross a Eurasian ratsnake with an American ratsnake to see what happens, if it would produce anything. And, no, I don't think all snakes that can cross and make babies should be in the same species, let alone genus. I think crossing species is pretty unnatural, and I don't buy the idea this happens in nature, except rarely bt. very close species.

PBS: I think the corn snake discussion is worth pursuing. Please add to that if you see fit. Thanks,

TC

-----
Ratsnake Haven: Elaphe dione, bimaculata, mandarina, conspicillata, porphyracea coxi, t. taeniura, situla, emoryi; Lampropeltis zonata, and mexicana.

Terry, First I would like to say- That is the most impressive reply that I have seen in quite some time, on any subject. Seeing a controversial topic from both sides is a supreme trait to possess. I tip my hat to you.

Now, to get back to the topic. I, in every way, agree with you that genus, species, even sub-species, that have not been evaluated and scrutinized closely MUST be breed under a vary controlled environment. I believe this not the case with obsoleta.

Concerning species like guttata, I am proud to possess a locality true pair. Whether or not there is a market for these animals, I could care less. Dollar signs do not boost my endurance in the least. I have not follewd the fate of guttata close enough to really make a coment on what you posted. I can generalize however. Like many of the inhabitants of these forums, I have been fascinated with herps as long as I can remember. Observing and collecting wild (pure) reptiles and then producing replicates of them is where my heart truly lies. Though I believe it sad that producing a man-made cross, which does in fact naturally exist, can cause individuals to put down another herper/breeder who does not agree with their own standards. From what I have gotten from your post, you are not one of these people.

I hope that I am not off topic. The current state of this hobby can sometimes be disappointing with all of the arguing and such, though I for one am glad that there are enough differing peoples involved to create such an argument.lol

Like I stated in my last post, I created my crosses to better my line of ‘bubblegums’ (another cross, I know), but it has turned out to be a very interesting group of snakes to work with. I mene, a “hybrid” that is a spitting image of a naturally occurring cross holds no less of a place for me than any of my pure snakes. I will definitely keep this group “pure”.lol It baffles me that anyone could PURCHASE a snake and hold that snake up higher than any other.

I apologize if this has been a ‘let out my heart, tear jerker’lol, I have just felt a need to speak off the record (aka-forum). I hope that every one is doing well, and living life up while it lasts-Brett

Thanks, Brett.

>>Now, to get back to the topic. I, in every way, agree with you that genus, species, even sub-species, that have not been evaluated and scrutinized closely MUST be breed under a vary controlled environment. I believe this not the case with obsoleta.
>>
I agree that obsoleta and guttata are special cases because they have been bred for so long by so many people. And there are other species like that, some of the kingsnakes for instance. I have no idea why someone would cross a black rat and a gray rat and lose both forms, imo. I would if it were to get a combination of mutations in one snake. EX: if I had an albino hypo obsoleta, I could call it an obsoleta with certain mutations. Even then, I'd rather have an albino hypo black rat than not know what ssps. I would not cross species at this point or buy these kinds of hybrids. But if others are doing that, it's their business. I just hope people are honest about what they offer to the public and they know what it is that they have.

>> Observing and collecting wild (pure) reptiles and then producing replicates of them is where my heart truly lies. Though I believe it sad that producing a man-made cross, which does in fact naturally exist, can cause individuals to put down another herper/breeder who does not agree with their own standards. From what I have gotten from your post, you are not one of these people.
>>
Brett, I think I agree on this point, but I wish I knew what example you're referring to. I too am interested in "observing and collecting certain species in order to create a 'locality' line with certain characteristics". Right now my main passion is to start an awesome line of AZ mtn. kings. But there's a few other species I'm interested in too, such as the Northern Green Ratsnake, Senticolis triaspis intermedia.

I'm not sure what cross you're referring to, but I'll try an example that may fit. I'll go back to my black rat x gray rat cross. Sure there's natural intergrades. Not that I would want one, but I see no problem if that's the look someone wants, go for it. It happens all the time anyway. If someone has a 'hairy', that's their problem. Tell them to get a life. You only have to make yourself happy. But, of course, if you want to post on this and other forums, you have to be able to live with the consequences. I wouldn't put anything in writing for the whole world to see unless I had a good reason for doing so and I could defend my argument. I would expect replies to be of the same caliber.

>>I hope that I am not off topic. The current state of this hobby can sometimes be disappointing with all of the arguing and such, though I for one am glad that there are enough differing peoples involved to create such an argument.lol
>>
I don't like to argue too much, so I stay clear of that stuff pretty much. If someone has a good point and can argue intelligently, w/respect, I have no problem with that. Good luck.

>>Like I stated in my last post, I created my crosses to better my line of ‘bubblegums’ (another cross, I know), but it has turned out to be a very interesting group of snakes to work with. I mene, a “hybrid” that is a spitting image of a naturally occurring cross holds no less of a place for me than any of my pure snakes. I will definitely keep this group “pure”.lol It baffles me that anyone could PURCHASE a snake and hold that snake up higher than any other.
>>
I still don't know for sure which snakes we're considering here. I'm not sure what a 'bubblegum' is. If it is a cross bt. two naturally ocurring subspecies of obsoleta I wouldn't call these hybrids. I have no problem with that. If it is a cross bt. two naturally occuring species like guttata and obsoleta then I would say I don't like crossing species. To sum up my stance, if you're creating mutations, who cares? If they're the same species, don't call them hybrids and give others fuel for argument. If someone says my snake is pure and better than yours, then I'd say, "Good for you. I'm glad you like them as much as I like mine...hahahah." I guess in this hobby we have to have a little bit of a thick skin.

>>I apologize if this has been a ‘let out my heart, tear jerker’lol, I have just felt a need to speak off the record (aka-forum). I hope that every one is doing well, and living life up while it lasts-Brett

Hey, that's part of what the forums are for, I think. You've brought up some interesting topics. That's why I'm here. If you're emotional, passionate, as some of us tend to call it, ok.

I'm living it up as best I can. My philosophy is to follow your dream, do the best you can, and time is short. Good luck with it. And keep arguing your point. If you can't use guttata examples, then use obsoleta examples. Not that much difference

Terry

Brett, I just went back and read your last two posts. Sorry I didn't do that before my first reply. I see what you mean now with your examples of everglades, yellow, and black rats. Those crosses are intergrades, however, not hybrids. They might be man-made, but still the same species. Actually, the pics are kinda interesting. I never really cared for the "greenish" ratsnake, but it's interesting to see what a black x yellow cross looks like that is man-made. Now the yellow x everglades cross I can understand better. The thing is that these two subspecies are so closely related. I think there's even some question as to whether the everglades warrants a ssp. classification. Plus, there's so much infusion of yellow rat genes into the everglades now, that the everglades rat is almost impossible to find in the pure form anymore, if I'm up on that. I think that cross is quite interesting and a nice snake. I also think the everglades rat in its pure form is a great morph. If I was into keeping everglades ratsnakes I would want to keep them as pure as possible. The problem is that it must be awefully difficult if there's no new blood coming into the hobby. How do you get "pure" everglades to outcross with?

Anyway, thanks for the strand, and good topic. I'm sure it'll come around again in the future. Meantime, good luck with your crosses, and keep us posted on what that yellow x everglades looks like as it grows.

Just for the heck of it, here's a pic (my first digital pic) of my Brazos Island Rats (in need of shed) and the hypo corn x Brazos cross (light colored one)....

TC

Thanks for that last post, Terry. I hope that I did not come across as being negative towards you. I kind of lost track on a post that started out as a reply to you and ended up speaking threw that post to others. I do that a lot. Sorry. As for the crosses, I will try to explain myself a bit more, as to why I conducted the breedings in the first place.

A friend of mine is holding a group of bubblegum rats for me. He owns a rodent company, so in exchange for letting him breed them, I don't have to pay for their food. We split the hatchlings half and half. For those who might not be familiar with "bubblegums", they are amel. black rats x amel. yellow rats. I don't know the whole background for the how and where the yellow amels came about, so they might vary well have been a result of an original cross between o. obsoleta and quadrivittata, I am not sure. But as with ANY snake that one does not catch their selves, who can? Another topic, another time.

Well anyway, I had started to notice some negative “side-effects” from the group and decided to fix it by out-crossing. Like I have stated before, money is not a motive for me, I just like to take on a task once in awhile to accomplish something. (I guess it’s kind of like the adult version of building Lego’s.) So I decided that some everglades blood would most likely look good in the amel. strain. This is going to take at least a few more years to accomplish by the way. Sometimes I wonder if it will be worth it, but I REFUSE to give up.lol Like Jeff posted earlier, it is important to be able to move the snakes that you produce, so I have resorted to putting ads in the classifieds of local newspapers. It works for me, but I want to stress that I am not just selling a snake to whoever wants one. I certainly conduct an interview, so to speak.

Well I hope that this has explained some things. Though, I admittedly have become quite attached to these man-made intergrades (I swear, that roles off the tongue quite nicely, don’t you think? lol), and I will always keep a few “pure” crosses of them. BTW, does anyone listen to string cheese? I have the pickin’ on album on right now, and it is really something. Some really great bluegrass. Sorry, side tracked again. Glad this turned out to be a positive thread. Well, so long, till we meet again.-Brett

I have purchased quite a lot of "everglades" from many different breeders, and have been mostly un-impressed with the stock. I have a few "yellow" rats that look more orange then many of these. There are for sure exceptions to this. I must also state that I believe that quadrivittata and rossaleni need to be considered the same sud-species. Untill that is the wide- spread belief, I will not represent my animals, on a forum or in an ad, as a singel ssp.-Brett

Should have labeled that one....yellow x black.

Brett,

I didn't think any of your replies were negative. I think this is a productive strand. The main point for me being that there are man-made crosses being made with certain species. Taking it from there I'd ask questions like, "What's ethical; what sells; what are possible outcomes of doing this; why do breeders make crosses; and what species are we going to make these crosses with?" Indulge me with why I make crosses with guttata, Corn Snakes and Great Plains Ratsnakes.

Designer corns are nothing new. There's probably a thousand different variations/morphs out there. What I'd like do do is to design a corn snake/Plains rat that has all the qualities I like best. I think there are certain morphs that are great by themselves, but I also think there's room for "special" morphs, designers, if you will. There's likely a market for whatever you produce also.

"Intermontana" rats are nothing new. They were a ssp. at one time, and hopefully will be again in the future. They have some great characteristics that I like. They are smallish, but fairly robust, heavy. They are extremely hardy which is a great plus for hobbyists in the north. They have a small number of eggs, but they are large, a plus. I like their colors/patterns also. Hopefully, you can see why I'd like to integrate these characteristics into my "mutt" line..haha.

The other subspecies I mentioned earlier was the Southern Great Plains Ratsnake, P. g. meahllmorum. I've only had this form for about 1.5 yrs., and I just got my first set of babies, so I don't have that much info, yet. But I love the locality variation from Brazos Island. I've already crossed my adult male with a hypo corn, as you saw in the pic I posted. I think this form is very distinct from typical corns also and can add some interesting qualities to my "mutt" line. It is much closer to P. g. emoryi than to P. g. guttata, so reproduction should be influenced positively with larger eggs, etc. I also like the color/pattern a lot. Behavior and ecology are interesting too along with some morphological adaptations. I think it will make my mutts a quite interesting snake.

One thing I haven't mentioned in this post, yet, are the mutations. This is one of the main reasons I like the crosses..to get the mutations added in. I'm working on hypomelanism right now, as mentioned before. I'm thinking the mutt line could handle two mutations fairly easily, so I'd like to get the albino mutation also. As a matter of fact, I like the Miami morph and the Keys Ratsnakes, so I'll be looking for one of those that is albino this year.

All said and done, these are long range projects like you mentioned above. Not for the faint of heart if you're truly into this, but a series of projects that will keep you busy and give you hours of enjoyment for years to come. Isn't this why so many amateurs love corns and love to experiment with them. I'll try to stick with it and post of them occasionally.

Happy Herping...TC

PS: Thanks for the explanation of bubblegum rats, Brett. Here's a pic of my male Brazos Island Rat...

...and a pic of one of my "intermontana"...

-----
Ratsnake Haven: Elaphe dione, bimaculata, mandarina, conspicillata, porphyracea coxi, t. taeniura, situla, emoryi; Lampropeltis zonata, and mexicana.

On the 11/4 hybrid forum:Newby,BOTH sides NEED you! New blood is what fuels this engine that is captive breeding. It is YOUR time and dollar that all the established keepers are vying for,not each others! As further domestication occurs(inevitable)some breeders try and keep their lines "pure" as its these MORPHS that command the highest initial price.Once produced,anyone can do anything with them if they buy them,its a free market.What "purists"dont like is "hybridizers"that breed across lines to get "NEW" morphs...which automatically taint the waters(and the prices)of uncharted territory.While I think we can all agree that its their right to do anything they want with their animals,it does make for a slippery slope when dealing with non-established breeders(which is what you will be if you decide to breed).
I believe that there are LOTS of NICE looking hybrids out there and there will be more on the way.In an effort to produce the best looking animals there is no doubt that hybridizing is likely the quickest/cheapest way to do it.But for each success there is a failure which more times than not the "purist"breeders have to pay for more than the "hybridizers".
Examples:Well there has just been several "firsts"in morph production--"white" grayband(leucistic/hypo??)and a "albino"pueblan milk. If it werent for hybridizers there would be no ""around these morphs.Further, the LUCKY guys that bred them could make a small fortune(or never have to buy another snake again,lol)selling "pure"morphs to those of us that want them.With the very real possibility that a hybrid ruthveniXcampbelli passed along the albino gene unknowingly to sire this offspring,there will be critics/skeptics until the morph is PROVED(and many times this is too late to recoup losses suffered).
Example:Tony D.brought up the arguement of the LA pine(RARE)and I give you the case of "temperalis".LA pines are rare and many are hybridized with other pines to increase profits.That is not to say even the original breeder didnt sell it as a hybrid,just that there is NO CONTROL out there and if a animal changes hands several times the "story"or the "hybrid"could be lost in a moment of weakness,ignorance or spite.With "temporalis",if further study reveals each of say 2-3 "locales" as actual,VIABLE subspecies(say TEMPORALIS and DIODATA) then they will certainly become ENDANGERED SPECIES overnite.Seriously.If that could(not that it WILL)happen, what good has ANYONES work with these be if some attempt has not been made to study "pure"lines??
I think there are enough people in the hobby/business now that there CAN be 2 sides but I always try and think about the FUTURE.I dont believe that we can re-patriate anywhere with captive specimens of any kind but I DO believe that captive breeding of truely "pure" lines can eliminate the need for further collection in some cases.Further, I think it a duty to leave SOMETHING for the next generation to study.I think there are many GOOD reasons (even scientific ones with new DNA research)to create hybrids.But I think of this alot like say a grocery store......some want organic food, some want good and cheap. Either way, all you can hope is to get what you paid for.Sorry for the length, but you did ask for it,lol.Jeff