Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last night I turned the two cage lights off at 7:30pm as usual. At about 7:45 I decided to clean up one of the mealworm tubs which is kept under the cage stand. I did not turn the room light on, but an adjacent room light as to disturb them as little as possible. While I was kneeling at the cage, one of the females came out to see what was going on, her usual curious self. Jasmine was in her humid hide. About 15 seconds after I pulled the tub out, Jasmine starts thrashing inside the fairly clear humid hide. At first I thought she was just playing with the other, but then it stopped. I reached in and picked up the hide, and opened the top. Jasmine was on her side, with her mouth tightly clinched on the wet paper towel. Her eyes were rolled back tight, no pupils seen and very sinuewy and red. Her body was motionless but it looked like all her muscles were contracted. (My first thought is that the light scared her, but every morning I turn the cage light on (much brighter) with no ill effects). While I was holding the hide, she started to move again and her body started to inflate and regain form. Then she started convulsing and her tail broke off (at this point I have not even touched her). They continue to twitch separated from each other. Again she grabs the towel and goes motionless. I placed the hide back in the cage. She crawled out about 2 minutes later and hobbled the cage. She had her mouth gaped, tougue slightly out. She continued to convulse then lie motionless. She cried, I hurt for her. My girlfriend really loved these guys, and it hurt to know she was going to be hurt. I knew she would not make it, but I didn't want to kill her, but I didn't want her suffering. In about 20 minutes she was motionless. I buried her with her tail. It was very traumatic, and I continually compare it to the Exorcist (no exaggeration). Can leos have seizures or heart attacks? I know this sounds off the wall, but this is NO joke. This seriously happened last night. I thought I was going to throw up afterwards, I couldn't eat or get to sleep. It was a very painful death. Any information or similar stories would be helpful. If this is my fault and preventable in the future I would like to know.

Again, I had not touched her in probably 3 hours and the light I turned on was in another room. Nothing physical provoked her, she was lying alone.

Matt

np
-----
Holy Molly Great Gobs Of Geckos
-Aaron-
0.2 rainwater albinos
0.1 hypo tang
1.5 hi yellow
1.3 tremper albinos
1.1 Patternless het albino rainwater
0.2 Tremper Reverse Stripe Tangerine Albino
0.1 Tremper Jungle Albino

Just a question? Why mess with the rest when you can have the best. -Great Gobs Of Geckos-
greatgobsofgeckos@hotmail.com

That is a crappy thing to watch...... Although not as complex as us animals can suffer the same types of illnesses we can..... This included heart attack and strokes and whatever else..... It is not common but does happen from time to time..... I am sure it is something that might not have been avoided...... Dont be hard on yourself...... The best thing to do when a leo dies is to get a necro done on them...... Especially being that it was housed with another leo...... So in the future if anything like this happens bring it to a vet to have a necro done...... It only cost about 35 bucks to have done and can give you some peice of mind as well as keep your other leos alive if it was some sort of catchable illness..... Sorry for your loss and that you had to see something like that happen......

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Did you notice anything that that was moved in the cage? something heavy? Seizures can be caused by alot of things, at least in humans. Those i work with that have a seizure disorder were born with it, but it can be caused by a hit to the head, illness or fever (again i'm siting humans here, i'm not sure about reptiles).

I agree with the other post that is most likely nothing you did or didn't do and that a necro (sp?) could rule out an illness that would affect your other geckos.

I'm sorry you had to see such a horrible thing happen.

Red
-----
Crested Gecko Zeek:1.0
LEOS: Boo: 1.0 normal , Bronx & Nala: 1.1 blizzard,
Lily: 0.1 patternless, Abby: 0.1 albino, Zoe: 0.1 reduced pattern, Dot: 0.1 hypo
Chip: 1.0 papillion (small dog)

Were did you buy her from? I had one that I bought from Petco. She was my first. About a month after I had her she began to convoulse and thrash her body around then after about 35 minutes or so she was fine like nothign happend. I took her into the vet the following day. They found she had a bad case of coccida that was pretty much non-treatable. Her eyes werent contracting with light anymore either. My vet said it might because of an illness which restricks nervous or blood to the brain or that she might had been hit harshly on the head that will cause seziures. Either way about a few weeks of her going through this ever 5 days or so. I had her put down. I still dont know what actually caused it but I have learned to pay close attention to my little critters.

I would get your other leos checked out and make sure they have no illness either.

Good luck.
Alicia
-----
3.7 Leos
Winky, Lenny, & Weemann
Sunshine, Serenity, Daisy, Starburts, Skittle, Banana, Zoey

A fecal was just done last week. There were some bacteria (that is all) and nothing that could be identified. I was given some preventive medicine to ward off the bacteria. The vet said that this medicine would not produce side effects like this. She had not been dropped, and nothing had fallen on her that I know of. I purchased all 3 from the same breeder back in Oct. I don't think the breeder had anything to do with this, so I will not mention names as I don't wish them ill will. She had been a little sketchy at eating lately, but all 3 had been, I thought it was just the gloomier winter. As my fish, turtle and snakes do go through different feeding routines in the winter.

What I wonder the most, is whether I did something. The fact that I was kneeling by the cage. Would this have happened if I had not been in the room. Is it possible to spook them that bad? would the light have done something? She was albino. Since Oct I had not seen any signs of anything wrong.

Matt

I would have to say that I doubt this happend because you were in the room or a near by light was on. It doesnt sound like it was caused by you. If anything when a leo is frightend or startled the take off running like a bat out of hell to hide. Not to have a sezuire. It sounds more like she had a medical problem that wasnt diagnosed. But this is just my opinon.

ALicia
-----
3.7 Leos
Winky, Lenny, & Weemann
Sunshine, Serenity, Daisy, Starburts, Skittle, Banana, Zoey

Was it Flagyl that was prescribed?

What was the med and what dose was she given. There are some medications with very narrow safety margins that can cause seizures in reptiles
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

It was meta something. It was the same active ingredient that is in most fish medication too. I don't have the paper here that states the concentration. It was a a liquid, not think but not very runny. The container that I pulled from only had maybe 1.75ml total. But I gave .25ml on the first day, again 72 hours later, and again the following day. I gave it to two of them, the scrawny male who does not eat and is my worry did not have any adverse effects. Yesterday was the 3rd dose and I gave it to her about 3 hours prior. The vet said that this would not be an effect of that. Do you think it could be?

if so thats flagyl
-----
-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

First off, I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. That's so traumatic and unfortunate. Really sorry.

I'm pretty sure I've read that Flagyl can cause damage (neurological?) if given incorrectly. Maybe someone else can inform us what too much can do.
-----
Rob Jenkins
Have you seen the GeckoCam?
Herptopia Reptiles
Email Me

I have a female that went anorexic on me and her fecal was clean she was just staveing herself and was also gravid at the time.
The Vet gave me the same medicine, but the dosage was .02(basicly one drop)for a 54 gram female, every other day for 3 doses. I haven't had any problems and she started eating after the second dose.
That is really scary what happened, it sorta sounds like an overdose to me with what they told you to give even though you didn't give that much it is still way more then the single drop I was told was correct.
Sorry for your loss.
-----
Sara

Flagyl can cross the blood brain barrier, so an overdose can cause neurological problems. Metronidozal is another name for Falgyl, and it's prescribed to treat parssitic infections and for anerobic bacteria, from what I know of it thus far.

I had two baby geckos that were prescribed Flagyl; I was told to force feed it to them and it was my first time doing anything like that-- I wound up overdosing them, unfortunately. One was fine but the other had some minor neuro symptoms afterwards-- mainly a lack of balance and what looked like stargazing. This was on a minor overdose...So I would think that a heavy overdose would cause seizures and death.

If it helps any, when humans seize they are not concious and they do not feel any pain from it. More than likely she did not suffer-- the walking part you described was probably just from disorientation, which at least in humans is very common after a seizure.She probably didn't feel a thing and didn't even know what was happening. More than likely her last concious experience was a good one. Watching any living creature suffer and die like that is a terrible experience; I've had to watch it twice now and it leaves an awful mark on you that isn't quick to go away. I hope that you are able to make sense of it and put it to rest.

I really appreciate all of your comments and thoughts. The male that I gave the medicine is acting a little weird too. I gave exactly what the vet said. But I am starting to think that I overdosed her. It was only preventitive because she had been housed with the "sick" (not quite sure) male.

Matt

The standard dose for Flagy is 25-50ml per kg of body weight. So for a 50 gram gecko, the dose would be .025-.05 ml. If she was dosed at .25, then that was 10X the normal dose! Is that what the vet prescribed????
-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Yes. But it was a suspended mix. I think the ratio was 100mg/ml. Does that change anything? I was told to give .25ml of this concentration. Depending on the concentration that amount given would change. The male I gave to is probably half the size of Jasmine.

i just wanted to point out that even if it's discovered that it was the medicine that did it, you're not to blame. you were doing what a veterinarian told you to do. i just want to make sure you don't feel guilty about trying to take proper care of your geckoes.
-----
marla
currently: 0.1.0 axolotls, 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 1.6 leopard geckoes, 0.0.20 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

If the correct dose for Flagyl is 25-50mg/kg, using a concentration of 100mg/ml is very easy to calculate. Here is how to calculate drug doses:

(dose x weight) divided by concentration

The first thing you would need to do is determine the weight of the gecko and convert that to kilograms using this formula:

1 kilogram (kg) = 1,000 grams

So, if a gecko weighs 50 grams, that is the same as 0.05 kilograms. Now, if you have a drug with a concentration of 100mg/ml, and the dose is 50ml per kilogram of weight, using the formulas from above comes out to be:

50ml (dose) X 0.05kg (weight) = 1.25 divided by 100 (concentration)

This means the proper dose for a 50 gram gecko is 0.025ml.

-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

could you please put this in its own seperate post?
-----
danny h.

1.3 leopard geckos

I made an error in this calculation... I was figuring the dose as 25ml/kg instead of 50ml/kg. I put this corrected reference in it's own separate post. (my bad)
-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I just looked at the one little bottle I gave and the mix was the same as yours 100mg/ml. And the dosage for my gecko was .02 for a 54 gram gecko and I was told to give it to her once every 3 days for 3 doses(I think I wrote 2 days before by mistake).
I think your vet needs to know they are giving incorrect dosages, before this happens to someone else.
Good luck with your male I hope he does OK.
-----
Sara

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago. One of my first geckos that I only had for two months started acting lethargic and rubbing her head on things like she had a bad itch. Eventually she started having little seizures. While I was on the phone with the vet, she died. This was a perfectly healthy gecko from a very reputable breeder. Later I found out that a small mealworm had crawled into her ear cavity, and my guess is it started feeding.
-----
The Hypo Gecko

o my god, that is horrifying... you know that was the cause for certain?
-----
marla
currently: 0.1.0 axolotls, 0.0.9 catfish, 0.1 ferrets, 1.6 leopard geckoes, 0.0.20 oriental fire-bellied toads, and 0.2.0 sugar gliders

A few minutes later I saw an extremely small mealworm crawl out of her.
-----
The Hypo Gecko

That is like that Night Gallery sjhow about the woman with the earwig that crawled into her brain and ate its way through. I though that sort of thing was only in nightmares and horror fiction. I am so sorry for your loss.
-----
Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

It was so strange. Everybody's always heard the myths about a mealworm eating it's way out of the stomach of whatever ate it, but this was just so strange. I never thought anything like that could ever happen. I was so sad, I got that gecko as a birthday present two months before. She is now immortalized on the home page of my website. She is the gecko in the picture that I messed with in photoshop when I was joking about people enhancing their pictures with photoshop. I think I saw that show with the earwig myth, it was one either Discovery Channel or TLC.
-----
The Hypo Gecko

that story about the earwig is not true. There is a layer of natural wax that covers the entry to the ear canal and a bug cannot get thru it without getting stuck and dying. Learned that in nursing school...its an urban legend. This applies to humans only tho.

They're talking about a show that stated it was a myth...not that it was true.

Shoot!! I have small mealworms running all over my tank. They cant escape the dish, they're ones that i set in front of my leos and they dont eat. I'm gonna go get those out right now.

What a horrible thing to witness. It is such a wierd coincidence that you were there when it occurred! There is nothing worse than watching something you care for suffer and not know what is wrong or how to help them. It sounds like it could have been neurological in nature, and not anything you contributed to. My heart goes out to you and your girlfriend.
-----
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

np

Wow, just like my Nisha (you responded to my death from tail loss message) He was also shedding, no apparent stress of any kind, he lived alone for 13 years. I only found him after his tail came off. He too convulsed, tongue hanging out, barked.I buried him with his tail too. I cried for two days, it was such a violent and awful way for a friend to pass on. It seemed like he was having a heart attack or something. I wonder if it was "old age" even tho he was only 13. How old was Jasmine? I feel it with you. Thanks for sharing. A

Jasmine was less than one year. I bought her along with another male and female at the beginning of October.

matt