Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Time to stir the pot a bit, especially because things are slow on the site.

I've noticed in alot of posts that many kings have the large body, tiny head syndrom that comes from power feeding. In fact, I got a nice female OBK from Hillson (via Keith, he didn't raise it) that had a body way too big for her head. She's now more proportional but it's taken me a year to get her back to what's more normal.

I'm not a fan of power feeding or the funky hypos/axanthic snakes or other wierd, induced color phases - but that's just my opinion and I'm not dogging any for that; to each their own.

But power feeding? Is it really good for your snake? In my experience gorging your snakes over their entire life (especially after they come out of brumation) has a tendency to produce health problems and shorten the lifespan of a snake (I'm talking kings here). Is it in the best interest of breeders to practice this?

I know some of you spunk monkeys out there will moan and cry about what the definition of "power feeding" is, but don't be stupid...you know what I mean.

-John

Any rules of thumb to determine if the snake is at a "normal" proportion?
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Tim

With kings at least you can tell if they are obese because they are cylindrical-bodied snakes - if your king looks like a loaf of bread sittin' there then you've got a porker on your hands! And it will - especially if it's a captive-raised snake - probably have a smaller head to the extent that it just looks funny in relation to its body. I've seen some obese kings (especially CalKings?) in pet stores whose feeding schedule should be cut back; that's always made me wonder because usually pet shops are el cheapo and don't spend more than they need to to keep the damm things alive! My guess is that in those cases they've bought a snake from someone recently.

Having said that, some of my larger kings - when totally relaxed - seem to be a bit heavy when they're chillin' out, taking a smoke break, etc. LOL But in an instant they get that lean, mean, rat-wrecking, round and strong as a steel pipe look back!

-John

I'm still fairly new to snakes. When I got a trio of CB '01 kings in the fall of '01, I fed them weekly, one mouse at a time, of the appropriate size. By February of the next year I began to raise mice, and fed the snakes whenever they seemed hungry. Some of the snakes would eat anything I gave them, soem would go slower and be more choosy. By the time I got to the spring of '03, my '01 female was good to go as far as breeding. To me she never looked disproportional, nor did the other two. She laid 8 healthy eggs that all hatched, and continued to grow and when she went into brumation she was a very healthy hefty weight. The two males we got were too into the thought of breeding and didn't eat nearly as much and are both not that much larger than they were last spring.

Among my Blotched Kings, I've found that the male I have is not at all averse to eating. In fact, I think he would have never brumated if I hadn't pushed him into it. He is the garbage king of king snakes... eating any and all mice and rats I give him. But then he is an older snake that I bought as an adult a year ago. The female is a little more disproportionate, but not dreadfully so, and she was bred in '03 (she's an '01 hatch) and had the same success rating as the Cal King.

With all that said, I got two '02 cal kings with the hopes that I could breed them this year, but even though they seem ready to eat any kind of mouse I give them, they never really gained any significant weight, so I will hold off on breeding them until next year. No hurry to breed them. I will feed them on the regular schedule, as I have done with all the rest... and I'll continue to breed if they make the right size, or hold off if they don't. I think the case for genetics is a big one. The two "slow growing" cal kings are banana kings I got from one breeder, and the trio of fast growing cals were from an entirely different breeder. The two males I got that are behind the female a bit are full siblings, and the female who grew so fast is of Newport strain (I think? Getting confused!) in any case she's descended from a locale that has large robust eggs, and big ol snakes. So her genes factored into her growth, and the genes of the other two females factored into their lack of growth.
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~Sasheena

I try to go with the snakes' rythyms if I can. For example, my adult kingsnakes will have their fiercest feeding response in Spring before breeding, then back off or stop for awhile, then maybe kick in again for awhile, then slow down and finally shut off for brumation. I stuff them during those active times and feed little or nothing the rest of the time. That is not powerfeeding overall, but looks like it during their ON season. Snakes seem very healthy. The old guy is around 16 or so.

I treat baby colubrids in a similar way. After they hatch and through that first Winter, most will feed, but I don't push them much at all and feed 1-2 small meals every 7 days. Then in Spring, I cram them full, then back off after that. Again, I don't really see any ill effects, but then, I haven't compared to snakes on a different feeding schedule.

Now for exotic snakes like Boas that will eat all through the year, care must be taken not to overfeed. It is the general observation from numerous sources that too much food results in a much-shortened lifespan.

I know what you mean by the small head big body but one thing to consider is that wild kings eat oversized prey . They simply have to because it's eat when there is food available etc...Eating larger prey items makes their heads bigger, thats why you will see wild snakes with giant noggins and I think John you can back me up on that. Look at the head on the wild old GA you have. This is not my theory on head size but I read it somewhere. Snakes in captivity are going to be fed food items they can easily get down, nobody is gonna stuff a rat pink down a 9" hatchling mouth. With that said power fed snakes get fat deposits that really show up when they fast and lose weight plus they will look to have a smaller than usuall heads but not always. I just brought up the head size thing so people dont freak and think they should have Kings with bigger heads LOL. To me a power feeding schedule for a hatchling would be 2-3 pinsk every 3 days. My feeding regimen(sp) is usually 2-3 pinks every 7 days or 1-2 pinks every 5-6 days. I will customize as well. Once a month I usually give them a solid 10 days off of food as well.

Keith
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Good point about the size of prey Keith; and Mark's statement about the snake's natural rhythms make sense too - acutally it's a good idea, I think to break a regular cycle, like Keith said, to more mimic what a snake would do in the wild. That's why I give mine some "second helpings" sometimes while at others I cut back or even fast them for a few weeks; if they are healthy they can deal with it well.

Like I said, I'm starting a war of words here - trying to get the juices flowing again on the site! It's nothing personal though...just MO and have fun.

PS. I know what you mean about the huge head on my old, WC Georgia king...that's what we have in common - huge "heads" LOL
It makes us both popular with the ladies!!!

-John

Yeah you do look like one of those Bobble Head dolls John. The ladies dig that down south huh ? Hit the YMCA and the rest of your frail frame should catch up with that prehistoric melon you call a head.

Keith
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...where is your mom from LOL. I can't hit the YMCA because everyone knows you from your "cruising" days and I don't drive on both sides of the street! LOL

And Wisconsin...come on bro, that's the state were teeth or optional! The South is full of rednecks and inbreds, but man oh man, I've seen some scary shi# in parts of Ohio, Wisonsin, Pennsylvania, etc. What the South has is a greater number of these folks - most of which should volunteer to fight so we can weed out these genes from down this way LOL

Later Mr. Wormsnake!

I've kinda figured this out as I've gone along, but it's nice to see what I'm doing seems right compared to your regiment.
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Tim

I finally got the Mont. Co. eastern king to take a f/t rat last night. His weight is way down. His feeding last year had been sporadic at best and he refused most types of offerings. I chilled him because he wouldn't eat and he was real sluggish after warming.
Feedings:
July 21 1 live mouse
Sept 5 1 live mouse
Sept 9 1 live mouse
Oct 15-Jan 1 Brumation
Jan 13 1 f/t chipmunk (only slightly larger than a mouse)
Jan 29 1 f/t small rat

Definetly not power feeding!
After reading the different responses from the top of the thread, I reduced the temperature in his tank from 83 to 70-73around lunch time and last night about 10hrs later he ate the rat within a few minutes of offering it. I am hoping that he will now continue to take f/t rats. How much and often should I feed him in order to bring his weight up.

On the other hand my other kings eat one meal (1 mouse, 1 rat, 1 pinkie, etc...) about twice a week. I stop feeding when their belly scales start to go irridescent and don't offer food until they shed. It just seems to be the easiest way to do it. They are all well muscled and the young are growing at a steady pace.

Bob Bull

If it were only that simple. Its not. The term "power feeding" is not very meaningful. Primarily it assumes that captive conditions are what that snake was designed for. Which I believe is normally not the case. The accepted conditions these days are to provide, middle of the road temps. Instead of providing a range of temps.

Snakes are designed to, use energy at high temps and conserve energy at lower temps. They are not designed to live at one temp or a narrow range of temps.

In most cases, if snakes grow thick with a small head, it simply means the high temps are too low. Snakes should grow long and slim until they reach sexual maturity. Then they thicken up. That is normal with most reptiles.

In reality, you cannot overfeed(what a snake eats on its own) a healthy snake that has a wide choice of temps(from too hot, to too cool)

Colubrids should have access to temps up to 100F when feeding often. I believe that is rare with todays husbandry. Remember, access also means usable temps, that is temps in the substrate. As most colubrids do not like open areas.

"Power Feeding" Should mean something done with a pinky pump or caulking gun or something similar.

I once read of a bull snake that was killed by a tractor, it had 47 mice in it. Is that "power feeding" I saw a 5 foot yellowrat that consumed a full grown rabbit. WOW, that was powerfeeding. I have seen wild ruthvans kings, so full of lizards, the tails were hanging out of their mouths. Truely power feeding.

Did you ever read Bill Garskas paper on wild mexicana. He(we) found pin headed and fat headed mexicana in many of the types. Naturally occuring. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Also, here I see lots of pin headed snakes after giant extented blooms of food.

It boils down to this, What pin headed means is, the snake is consuming more calories then its using. You can take away the calories or you can allow the use of the calories, its your choice. Either choice is normal for the design of kings. They are constantly exposed to extremes in nature. F

I think another factor is the genetics of the snake. Some snakes may store more fat than others just like with humans. There are no cut and dry reasons I would imagine.

Keith
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Actually you've simplified it greatly. If only temps made it that easy to explain! Temps. had nothing to do - directly - with me trimming down my young OBK, otherwise I would have expected a change in weight and look from my other kings of similar age, feeding schedule, and kept at the same temps. 100 degrees when feeding often? Where in the world did you get that information? Sure, sometimes a kingsnake will be exposed to such high temps, but they won't stay in that situation long at all if they want to live. My kings digest their meals at around 83 degrees on the warm end. Some of my kings stay on the cool end even after they've eaten too! Which leads me to my next point..

The metabolic rate for each individual snake is not the same, nor is it the same for ssp. of kings - again, I wish it were that simple; that way I would only have to clean all my cages on the same time of day or night after x number of days after feeding. Plus some snakes will eat when going into (or totally in) their shed while some won't eat for days before or a little while after, so... In other words, yes temps. do play a big role but the snake itself and how you feed it are more important overall than just simple temperature regulation - I really noticed this when I lived in s. Florida and had both "brooksi" and Easterns from north Florida or GA. Predictably the "brooksi" did much better down there than my Easterns, and this is an experience many herpers have had keeping Easterns in s. Florida. My Easterns never really settled into a regular feeding and stool pattern like they do in more temperate areas - even when I did my best to maintain a steady temp.

What you're stating is the obvious too. I understand the natural feeding cycle of a kingsnake. And the whole spiel about energy use is well understood for most reptiles. Most have evolved a life history of very efficient energy use, more so than mammals.

Most everyone knows what you mean when you say "power feeding." Your examples of gorged snakes in nature is just what one would expect - nature. A snake will eat as much as it can because it may go for who knows how long without food. But feeding say a 3' king 4 mice per week on a regular basis is not the same as a 3' king eating 4 mice the wild - in that case the king will not eat that much again until it digests its meal to the extent that it can move around safely, that is, unless something comes right up to it; it's going to find a place to digest its food. A slow, heavy king would be easy prey for something and why would a snake risk it when they don't need to eat again for what...a month?!

Powerfeeding is meaningful when talking about captive-kept snakes because you are controlling exactly what and when, and how much your king eats. Feeding a king excessively on a regular basis is powefeeding, and this is not something one would expect as a whole in nature - it just doens't make sense in regards to the evolution of the snakes metabolism. Sure, you can find snakes with 10, 15, or whatever mice in them in the wild...but it won't happen every 7 days for months on end, at least not for the majority of snakes.

-John

As for where i got this. I have been doing field work for many many years and also I have bred kingsnakes of many species for over 40 years. In fact, many of the lines being bred now are ones I started many years ago.

This is a female tiger rattlesnake heating up her babies. If you look, you can see where she has moved out to attain more heat, and back to regulate her heat.

This is a banded rock rattlesnake heating up a food bolus. This type of regional heating is common

After taking thousands of temps of both captive and wild snakes, I get the temps I spoke of.

With that said, you are allowed to think what you want. Good luck F

n/p

Frank,

Do you, or have you, used the stacked boards system you developed, that is so popular with monitor keepers, for your kings. I would think that being generally similar to odatrid monitors in their heat seeking behavior, although less extreme, most kings would dig such a basking set up. The only Lampropeltis I have seen in nature is the Eastern milk snake in the Allegheny foothills of the southern tier of NY. Many of those were found in rock fissures on southern facing slopes, basking much like my glauerti and ackies did at home (at the time). Also, I'm sure everyone here would appreciate seeing your king set-ups if you have any pics handy. Thanks.

Will Still

I have used Frank's board stacks for both kings and rattlesnakes with good success for years. One of the aspects they provide that has been little discussed in these threads about feeding and temps is "sheltered" heat variation options. Rattlesnakes in particular, but kingsnakes too, appear to prefer thermoregulating from under cover whenever possible. IE, given the choice, they will stay hidden to achieve a certain temp for a given need (shedding, digesting, cooking eggs, etc.) versus sitting out to accomplish the same goal. The stacks work great for this. An added feature is to cut small circular holes in them such that they can move from layer to layer without ever exposing themselves. Then they can choose what temps they need when without sitting out. The key here is their ability to choose the heat option, not us doing it for them by regulating too tight a heat range by limiting options.

'

Hi Will, Actually I developed those stacks with baby kingsnakes. I have not invented anything for monitors. I merely applied and adapted techniques I learned from all other reptiles. Monitors are simply faster, they take more heat and do events faster, that is, except hatching. Thanks F

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>>Feeding a king excessively on a regular basis is powefeeding>>

Your saying so doesn't make it so, any more than someone else arguing that "maintenance feeding" constitutes starvation. It would add to the discussion if we avoid these sorts of generalizations, because we need good vocabularies to describe different kinds of management.

Feeding a king EXCESSIVELY is OVERfeeding. PROPER feeding will vary for species or subspecies, as well as for all the other variables--temp, individual genes and temperament, cage space, breeding activity or not, etc., etc., etc. I "power feed" hondurans--I feed them aggressively in the spring, because they eat aggressively then, in preparation for egglaying--and they show no signs of obesity. After laying, their appetites reduce as they rebuild to their regular body weight, and then reduce further. They will NOT eat all that is put before them, no matter what anyone says. There's a lot to be said for observing our animals and gaining insights into their behavior, into their responses to variables, and tailoring our management to that. I "power feed" juveniles, too, seeking to keep them healthy and active and growing optimally. Hondurans have an incredible ability to convert food to growth--to lengthy, muscular growth--whereas a different kind of animal of the same size, eating the same amount, would not add as much length as quickly and would build up body fat.

terry dunham
albino tricolors
st pete florida

"Did you ever read Bill Garskas paper on wild mexicana. He(we) found pin headed and fat headed mexicana in many of the types. Naturally occuring. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Also, here I see lots of pin headed snakes after giant extented blooms of food."

>>Would it be possible to provide me with or direct me to were I could see this paper? I have not read it and would like to. Also please see my post today (Jan. 30th) about force feeding alternate foods.

Hi Aaron,

It is a Museum of Comparative Zoology Publication, One of their Breviora series of papers. William Gartska is the author. 1982 is my best recollection for the date. Title is something like "Systematics of the mexicana kingsnakes and mimicry in the group blah blah blah".

Cheers, H

Thank you. I have searched the MCZ website and found specimen records for mexicana but was unable to find the paper online. Have to go now but I will look again.

Hey Aaron,

Let me know how you do finding it. I have it somewhere, key word somewhere.... If all else fails I can try to find it and send you a xerox copy. It is doubtful MCZ will have it available on line for viewing, but may for purchase?

Best. H

Will do, thanks.

I'm not a fan of power feeding either. Given that you have a parsite free animal and the proper temp gradient its been my experience that one appropriately sized meal per week is sufficient to maintain proper health. This being said juvenile and gravide females do profit from smaller and more frequent meals. I also think that the quality of the food you are offering plays into what is an appropriate amount of feed. Generally I go for that just a little more robust than wild caught look in my adults. Interestingly I've also found that snake raised like this "generally" have fewer and larger eggs.

Interestingly I've also found that snake raised like this "generally" have fewer and larger eggs.

Interesting. Do you have any data to show this. In my humble opinion, this debate is moot. Some will choose to "power feed" and some won't. I don't consider my methods power feeding, but I feed hatchlings and juviniles up to 2 years old about 2x per week. It really depends on the individual and their metabolism. I have a few large female that lay VERY LARGE clutches of VERY LARGE eggs. One female in particular, Big Whitie, laid a first clutch of 19 and followed up with another 18. These were the largest king eggs I had seen......about the size of a med chicken egg. It works for me.

No Brandon I do not it is just my experience but it is illustrated when I sell some breeders to friends who feed their animals more aggressively. In the last instance I sold my best pair of goini to Carl Gilmore. For me the pair produced on average about 10 eggs per year and the neonates were quite large. They were about 7 years old the first year Carl produced them he got a significant increase in production (18 if I recall correctly) but the neonates hatched out tiny. Same happened with a pair of pyros I sold to a breeder in northern VA. They got lots more eggs but the neonates again were tiny.

We covered this in the milk snake forum some time ago but I've proposed that this might be some survival mechanism. It would work like this: In a prey rich environment (lots of food) the best reproductive strategy might be to produce as many offspring as possible as this would also prove to be a predator rich environment. Under the opposite conditions it might be to produce fewer and larger neonates that could take advantage of larger prey from the get go. Don't know how much water the idea holds but it was a fun conversation.

tony-
the big clutch/small clutch theory has also been tossed around with LA pines that as you know lay small cutches with big babies in an environment with few choices on the menu.
daveB

What! You mean my theory isn't original? LOL

np

Here's a "funky" fat snake for you. Never been power-fed. She's an '02 and I've been trying to slim her down for 5-6 months now. I assume her head will catch up someday.

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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

I knew the head size thing would make people wonder. The head on your King looks normal its not out of proportion to its body. Kings have muscualr thick necks naturally so they always look like they have a smaller head than say a corn snake which has a pencil neck LOL.

Keith
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I have gotten two emails from new folks in the hobby that read this series of posts and wanted to know what exactly is power feeding. I told them I would post the answer here. So here goes with my explaination:

Power feeding is a practice where an animal is kept at high tempetures to increase the metabolic rate and fed every 2 - 4 days to increase the normal growth patterns. It was used primarily back when breeding snakes was a new thing and breeders attempted to get to the market place with a new morph or rare snake faster and thereby make more money off of the offspring.

Problems arose from this practice in that even though you had large snakes from body size etc. the animals were in many cases large but immature. Thereby problems associated with breeding young animals reared its ugly head. Problems such as egg retention, fatty liver problems and the big headed syndrome were some of the more common problems among these snakes.

Today most experienced keepers frown on the practice and about the only time you hear about it is when you have a new keeper trying to enhance the size of a particular animal. It is in our opinion harmful to the overall health and longevity of the animal being power fed.

Hope that explains the deal.

By the way it is sure great to see these type discussions on the forum for evryones benefit.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

First, as one of the pioneers of colubrid breeding, we did not come up with power feeding. That was something people without experience labeled things they did not understand.

In the old days, we did not have shoe/sweater boxes to keep snakes in, so in our ingnorance we used large cages and actually included subfloors. What this did was allow a large range of temps. From too hot, to very cool. We also were not fortunate enough to recieve advice from other hobbyist, so we actually looked at natural snakes for advice. Here we found, they included a range of temps to accomplish different life tasks.

You really should remember or think about this, There was no market for snakes when this husbandry that allowed reproduction started. They were for all intents and purposes worthless. So, the commerical aspects so commonly assigned these days, did not exsist. It was a labor of love, not money.

next, you fail to include the proper details. Snakes did not grow fast and breed at 18 months and multiclutch, because of heat alone. They did so, because they had a range of temps. We were actually so dumb, we often went overboard in all directions. Again remember, there was no "recipe for beginers" to follow.

As for your narrow temp ranges, I have to wonder if that is not a product of being commerical. As i see it, you simply cannot include a wide range of temps in a shoebox. Therefore the shoebox predicts your temps, not the snake. The commerical part is, you can house literally hundreds of snakes in shoe/sweater boxes, where that would be very difficult with large cages.

With our field work, we see on a daily basis a range of temps, normally from 18c to 37c. These temps are rectal IB temps. Normally a temp of 18c tells up the snake has recently imerged. Body temps of 37c tells us the snake has been out a while. FYI, these are for basking snakes, not crawling snakes. That means the IBT is for a use. As the years passed we started taking throat/head temps, to compare to rectal temps. We found it very rare that the two were the same. At times they were as much as 10F difference in one individual.

Feeding in nature, snakes are pulse feeders, they feed heavily for short or medium periods of time. The rest of the time, they either reproduce or conserve energy. In nature, I have seen neonates grow to maturity in three months. That is something I have not been able to accomplish in captivity. The reason is clear. In nature, they either conserve energy or expend it. Normally they are not stuck in limbo(shoeboxes)

Once you take this usable range of temps away, you will witness all sorts of problems. Including all of the things you mention. The problem I see, as one of the oldies is, you are now overmanaging reptiles. You have taken away there choices. But unlike the monitor folks, as least you are successful. With snakes, we can discuss shape and such. As breeding is commonplace. With the monitor folks, they argue the world, with no or little success. Yet the problems are very much the same. We are working with reptiles, their required temps are task dependant. They require different temps for different tasks. Its very simple. They are not endotherms, which may be better understood as constant temps. As opposed to exto-therms, that are not constant temps, but variable useable body temps.

By the way, I never had problems with young reptiles reproducing. In fact, I have not heard of any records that surpass so of the results we had 30 years ago. For instance, I had three 18 month old Blairs, produce 66 healthy living offspring in one spring and three 18 month old Calkings produce, 99 offspring, in the same time period. All of these females went on to live long healthy productive lives. Most multiclutching well into their late teens and then living for many years past that. Even successfully reproducing after that. But not consistantly. More FYI, on our studysite, we commonly find young gravid females, some with a button, a rattle and a base. Thats two sheds. In captivity, that would be about four months old. But I think in nature, that is last years babies. Again, on our site, most of the reproductive females are tapered rattles, young. It is very rare, I am not sure I even remember, a strait rattle female being gravid(old female).

Congrats of your successes, but you should actually research more. Your opinions of what happened in the past are reasonable, but not accurate. F

"For instance, I had three 18 month old Blairs, produce 66 healthy living offspring in one spring and three 18 month old Calkings produce, 99 offspring, in the same time period."

Frank, are saying that those 3 Graybands (18 months old) laid 66 eggs? Average of 22 eggs per clutch?

And that 3 Cal Kings (18 months old) laid 99 eggs? Average of 33 eggs per clutch?

Please clarify.

Thanks,
Kerby...

Each female produced two clutches in their first season. The totals are babies produced, not eggs laid. I believe only a few eggs did not hatch. With the kingsnakes, I really wanted to hit 100 but missed.

The blairs laid clutches in the 10 to 15 range and the calkings, laid up to 19 in one clutch, I believe.

We used to compare record clutches, Ernie Wagner and I. We both broke 20 eggs per clutch, with both types of kings. I believe Ernie beat me, with a clutch of 23 from this giant ugly fat Blairs he had on display at Woodlawn Park Zoo.

What I am referring to with the 66 and 99 is 18 month old females. Thanks F

Some of your factual information seems to be in line but at the same time some of it is a little off the mark also. I made a number of generalities for the sake of brevity and was myself around in those early days as a breeder and worked with Joe Lazow and some of the others that actually started all this Herpteculture stuff for the presnt day hobbist. As far as longivity we have been involved on a large collection basis(300-600+ adult animals) for over 22 years and in the hobby for a total of 37. So your allusion to the lack of experience falls somewhat short.

There was a much reduced market for snakes in general back in those days and the market was mostly comprised of wild caught animals with all the inherent problems they are prone to have.

Even though there were a few making a living out of the reptiles, you are completely right when you say it was not a monetary thing in most cases. There were a few commercial collectors, wholesalers etc. making a living at it but they were few and far between.

As far as tempetures are concerned we maintain a number of different animals rannging from hognose, kings, corns, pituophis and even a few boas in the same housing unit with no problems by using individual cages and additionally provide the temp ranges that they do best in. For instance Pituophis deppei deppei do best when maintained at 74 - 78 degrees with night time fluctuation down into the low 70's, bulls do better in the range of 78 - 82 and don't seem to require the fluctuation to thrive. Over the years we have devised things with the help of others such as heat tapes, thermostats and timers to provide those optimum ranges for the animals we keep and propagate. Most of this has been leraned by trial and error and talking to the folks that actually did field work ( collecting or research) with specific animals. I myself need that type input as I am just not that smart. LOL.

As far as being commercial I do not make a living or even a profit off Cherryville Farms, I own an enviromental company in the Houston area and this is just a hobby. A large one for sure but still a hobby.

I do however agree with you that snakes are oppurtunistic feeders and in the wild they may go weeks without a meal or get lucky and feed well for a period of time. The requirements of an individual animal is surely affectted by the task they are attempting to do at any given time. Egg production and laying as versus brumating in a wild state have very differing demands on the individual.

As far as producing 66 viable offspring from an alterna in one season, I find that very interesting as the average clutch size of alterna tends to be in the 6 - 10 range. But in any case the condition of producing that many offspring at that young an age and in so short a time would surely leave the female in a comprimised shape and is not something I would submit my breeders to. We in fact try and discourage any type of double or triple clutching because of the stress it puts on the females. Further, production of that many offspring is not in keeping with the quality first mantra we attempt to practice.

As far as young females having higher percentage of problems, I have to disagree with you on that account. In our collection and in numerous other large breeders collections the problems have been recognized for years.

I appreciate your diference in view point on this subject, but I believe that our experiences in this hobby over the last 37 years is representative of the findings of many of our fellow breeders and hobbist alike and are therefore reasonable and correct in content.

I am leaving town in a few minutes, but will look forward to your reply when we get back on Monday.

By the way Frank send me your email so I can send you a pic. of you Dave and Tracy from ETHS several years ago.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

n/m

lmnopqrs

Like Keith said, that's a totally normal looking, healthy king - most of mine have the same overall shape to them as well.

I'm talking about true porkers - the ones that look like a large rat snake's shape when they're sprawled out in their cage waiting to be fed like some Anuran!!

-John

Well then you guys have fat snakes! lol Just kidding she's not that bad, I know but I'd like to slim her down. Really, look at the skin showing between the scales. Here's a pic of her brother that shows what I think a brooks should look like at that age.

And here's the fat one again for comparison.

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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

that sometimes it doesn't matter how much you feed them, they still get fat. A point for the genetic side.

Also, ever noticed that sometimes feeding causes a snake to defecate? Well my theory is that if they weren't fed right then, they wouldn't have pooped yet. I take this as meaning that they weren't done with it. I guess I'm saying that maybe a snake can get just as much nutrition out of a large variance of feeding schedules. As for me, I just wait until they poop, wait a day (for young) or two (for juvies) or three (for adults) then feed them and clean their enclosure. I note how many days this usually is and write the average numbere of days in dry-erase marker on their plastic tubs. I also the write the date. When this says it's time to feed, I check for poo and if it's not there yet or looks really fresh, I wait.

They also tend to get fasts once in a while when my rodent colony slows down for some reason or another.

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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

King Cobra from the St. Louis Zoo? Nice pic. How are the brooksi doing?

Brandon

>>King Cobra from the St. Louis Zoo? "

Yep. I figured, you know...king.

"How are the brooksi doing?"

They're doing fantastic Brandon. Getting big and lightening up fast. Just switched to rats.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

Well I guess it could be worse but I'd definitely consider this one overweight. I've got about dozen other brooks to compare with and she's definitely the fattest proportionally.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

no it is not good in anyway for any snake king or otherwise to be "powerfed" >PERIOD . < its a terrible practice only practiced by fools,,,,,,,,,,thomas