Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have heard that cities and counties across the nation are putting the 6' ban on snakes over this length. WHere would i go to find if my city has this limitation?

Police or Sheriff depending on where you live

>>Police or Sheriff depending on where you live

I've had certain states' wildlife LE mislead me pertaining herp law (at least at the state level). I queried the Fish-n-Game type folks about a couple of things where I initially did not understand the law, and they basically told me something untrue (as I later found out).

Whether this came about through a deliberate deception (perhaps due to one warden's agenda) or by simply not knowing the answer and taking a wild guess is unclear. It's not LE's job to interpret the law, which was my mistake in asking them to do so.

Frankly, a good number of my local police/sheriffs just plain don't know the laws pertaining to herps. A few do, but most of them have no idea, be it native herp collection or possession of certain snakes within the various municipality limits.

There IS a web site which has a lot of local (municipal) codes, organized by state; you find your state, then county, then municipality, and from there you can find the applicable regulations. However, I can't for the life of me remember that URL right now, and it's dependent upon whether your municipality has uploaded the information to an online-accessible format.

Bottom line is, you'll probably blindside a policeman if you ask about herp regs out of the blue, and by putting him on the spot he might have to tapdance and, in doing so, give you bad info. Not his fault; I don't expect a police officer to know every rule and regulation out there any more than any other citizen!

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

of applicable laws to be enforced on size....and maybe years to read out to the exact reading or written law. Here's my example:

Overland Park Kansas: city passed ordinance of having a snake at 6 foot and over. They were trying to pertain the ordinance for pythons and boas. After reviewing that colubrids can reach this size, it was changed, but then there had to be a grandfathers clause written in. Then there was a permit system the next year for large BOIDS as the new law was written. This went on for several years then the ordinance was re-written again to out-law ANY large constrictors ( this is how it was read ). Back to the city hall for not-including constrictors ( since a lot of our colubrids are classified as constrictors ) but to define what snakes were exactly not permitted. The new law was large ( 6 foot and over ) boids but not boids below that size or while they were juveniles. WOW ! Then someone want's to include the potentally of-getting-to-that-size boids. All law enforement of Overland Park was confused on what snakes were even in the city ordinance and they didn't know how to enforce the law with out a game person or animal control person with them. I other words, they themselves ( POLICE ) could not do ANYTHING themselves unless you had a snake out and causing:
a public nuisance
a harmfull act to another as to causing a person to have a panic attack, health problem ( heart attack ? )
a traffic problem as to causing drivers to look and cause a wreck ( this was actaully worded in the ordinance )
etc.
Otherwise it was a city animal control problem.

This all took every bit of 5 years to get to the revised law as it is now. But the petstores and reptile shows can still sell boids in and around Overland Park Kansas. Another catch 22 syndrome. EH ! ?

Now if this goes to a state or federal instead of a city/ township, ( and i guess I heard someone said a county )situation...I don't know .

chambo

Yep,
You guys have hit on a real problem here. There are really three tiers of laws covering herps. The first is the Federal/International laws that protect critters crossing state and international borders, and Federally protected species. For example, a critter that is illegally taken in one state and then transported across state lines into another state becomes a Federal crime. The Federal Gov’t also enforces CITES laws regulating critter imports from XYZ country to the US for pet, food or what ever use, and migratory animals such as birds and caribou that cross international borders and are protected by international treaties. The Federal Gov’t also steps in to enforce laws protecting Federally Listed Threatened and Endangered Species as well as marine animals, which are generally ignored by the states. The Federal Gov’t also steps in when there is a wildlife crime on Federal land such as a National Park or National Forest (i.e. a Federal Park Ranger enforces state fishing regulations in the NP). These laws are generally enforced by the US Fish & Wildlife Service, but in the case of most marine animals the National Marine Fisheries Service takes over, in most cases, and NP and NF have their own enforcement personnel, but NP’s and NF’s often call for help from the F&WS for any serious violations. The division of the protection of marine animals is a bit confusing, but basically the division is drawn along historical hunting and fishing regulations. NMFS protects fisheries, which historically included whales, dolphins, seals and sea lions, fish, invertebrates (i.e. lobsters and shrimp), sea turtles and surprisingly polar bears. F&WS protects the animals historically hunted for a specific product rather than the meat (i.e. fur or ivory), which includes sea otters, and walruses. I should also point out that the USDA also enforces laws surrounding animals used for food, scientific research (NIH gets in here too) and species designated as injurious to natives (i.e. clawed frogs and marine toads in the western states) or public health concerns (i.e. the 3” turtle rule), but currently amphibians and reptiles are not classified as “animals” by the USDA with only a few exceptions (most notably the USDA humane animal transport regulations that most herpers dislike so much…including me). However, there is a move to change this in the works, so stay tuned Universities and public schools that receive Federal Funds and use herps for education or research. Federal Special Agents can also enforce state regulations, but depending on how long they have been at their duty station, they may or may not know those laws. Federal SA’s generally only get training on the Federal laws, but not on state laws, and most will not enforce city and county ordinances.

The next tier of laws is the individual state game and fish law. These laws generally focus on game species, or species that are hunted or fished for sport. Most states also have T&E species that they also protect, but in most cases the state T&E lists mirror the Federal T&E lists for species found in the individual states. The states also provide special protection for species that are being heavily taken for commercial or private use (i.e. possession limits for tri-colors that everyone likes so much), and for species that are doing fine nationally but are declining in their particular state. Such species are protected under such headings as “commercially important”, “candidate species”, “special concern”, and etc.. Finally, the states often have laws to prohibit exotic animals that may prove harmful to native species in their state if released into the wild (i.e. brown tree snakes or hedge hogs, etc.), or prohibit exotics that are deemed dangerous to the public safety such as ‘hot’ snakes and pet tigers. This tier of laws is enforced generally by the state game and fish dept (each state seems to have a different name for this dept). Since the states are the ones enforcing the game laws, they have the army of visible Game Wardens wearing uniforms and driving marked vehicles (but not always) that are out and about all the time in the field checking hunting and fishing licenses, so your most likely to run into a Game Warden when your out in the field looking for herps (remember that a “take” in most states is defined as …to catch, capture or kill or attempt to catch, capture or kill, which means you need a license [hunting or fishing depending on state] to even pick up a lizard to take a photograph). Further, most illegal animal possession cases are state violations, so the GW is generally the person who will knock on your door when some one finds out you have a pet cobra or crocodile in your apartment. The state GW’s also, usually, know and enforce the Federal laws applicable to their state when they have time (they generally pass Federal cases on the SA’s because they are just to busy most of the time), but don’t expect the GW to know the interstate or international trade regulations, and like the Federal SA’s, GW will rarely enforce the city and county ordinances.

The third tier of laws governing herps is the city and county ordinances. These laws are generally civil rather than criminal in nature, and they are generally more malleable than the state and federal laws, which means they are the easiest to get changed. This is good and bad. On the one hand, it is easer to appeal to the city or county board to have a stupid ordnance reevaluated and changed, but the down side is that it is very easy to get stupid ordnances enacted in the first place. This is where most (and I think all) of the ubiquitous 6’ length limits and bans on particular species groups such as pythons or monitor lizards come into being. The history of these ordinances can inevitable be tracked back to a public out cry over a particular incident, and thus news paper articles with titles like “Man Chewed by 14’ Killer Python” or “Boy Mauled by Dangerous Pit bull” can usually be found in newspaper back issues published shortly before the ordnances were enacted. (On an aside, I think it is interesting that states seem to side step the dangerous dogs problem even though I believe they cause more injuries to people and more deaths than all exotic animals combined, and no I don’t have the facts to back this up, but that appears to be the case. Also, I lived in a county once that enacted a 6’ ordnance requiring permits for “all snakes that are or potentially could be over 6 feet in length.” The problem was, the county board forgot to assign someone to issue the permits, so it was impossible to comply with the ordnance. The ordnance was eliminated a year later after a fiscal assessment determined the county could not afford to pay for the license inspectors required.) Special branches of either the city police department or county sheriff’s office enforce this tier of regulations. The Animal Control Officers are generally rank and file cops with little or no training in wildlife laws at the state level, and they almost never receive training at the Federal level.

So how is this a problem? Simply put, one hand does not know what the other is doing. You can be told every thing is legal by a GW, but your violating some city ordnance that the GW did not even know about, or you call ahead to the county your moving into from another state and the city ACO tells you your 8 foot Indigo snake is perfectly legal, but it was illegal for you to cross state lines without a permit (over simplification to make a point here, I know this is not strictly correct). Further, the state your moving to prohibits possession of Indigos because they are listed as Endangered in the state, so your fine as far as the ACO is concerned, but the SA and GW who come knocking on your door after your first herp club fair ruin your whole week! Unfortunately, even though this is a real problem, you are ultimately responsible for abiding by all the laws and ordnances in effect covering the area in which you reside or travel through (this is especially true for animal dealers who, as they well know, are often targets for enforcement personnel, but remember… you attract more flies with honey, so be nice!). The old saying, “ignorance is no excuse of the law” really is true in a Court Room, so all herpers need to check the Federal, State, County and City laws/ordnances regulating herps. This can generally be done by checking with the state game and fish dept, who can often let you know about any Federal concerns and with the city or county animal shelter as long as the animals are not listed on the Federal T&E list and were legally collected or imported (if an animal is illegally imported into the US, technically that animal is always illegal even if you did not smuggle the animal yourself [unless the animal is “washed” by the F&WS]. Of course, that begs the question about the legality of offspring from illegal animals. Ever wonder about the legality of bearded dragons?). The worse part is that you still might not get the correct information, so ask for the name and badge number of the person who gave you the information, and if possible, get the information in writing (a letter from a GW or a brochure that you can show to the judge). If someone knows they are on the spot to give you the correct information, they will generally do a better job of advising you on the laws and ordnances, so be polite, ask a lot of questions and take down names and badge numbers.

Big Brother

Contact your local animal control and/or city council to find out what the local regulations are. A copy of city/county ordinances should be on file at city hall - they might have a secratary or similar that can look up the regs for you. Also ask a local herp society if there is one in your area or state. Usually herp societies have one or two people who specialize in laws.

Katrina