Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So the below tread on this had me wondering: What is the size of Anoles(sorry to those of you who keep them as pets)to feed a 7 month Cham? In fact, what is the size of anything to feed? Is there a rule of thumb to go by Thanks-Maggie

This sounds like a very large meal for a 7 month old cham. I would be more concerned about the parasites the anole could be carrying, but I would probably only offer an anole to a large panther or veiled or one of the giant species such as melleri or oustaleti. The feeder size rule of thumb is not to offer anything larger than the cham's mouth is wide. Even if the cham could physically swallow something larger it would be hard to digest. It is better to offer smaller meals as you don't want the cham's stomach to be packed very full overnight when their metabolism drops. The partially digested food sort of stagnates until the next basking cycle.

Obviously it depends on the size and species of cham. The age doesn't mean too much, Maggie. Tht being said, feeding anoles (I assume you mean A. carolinensis or A. sagrei) isn't really a good idea. Virtually all the anoles availble are WC and have parasites that can be transmitted to a cham. I do know a fellow from FL whose chams regularly eat the anoles that stray into the cham cages but I wouldn't do it.
Ed

I disagree with with the advice not to feed anoles. While they
may carry parasites the advantages of feeding them once or twice
a week outweigh the parasite issue. Your chams should be on a
regular worming schedule. I am a microbiologist, and have
extensive knowledge on parasites. The advantage of feeding smaller anoles is the calcium content of the bones and the vitamin content of the tissues and fat. I house smaller anoles
and feed them gutloaded crickets. Then they are fed to the chams.
I do recommend that you only feed the anoles once a week to a
7 month old cham. They do need plenty of warmth to digest the
meal. As I mentioned in another reponse to the same type of question, stress and poor husbandry are the main reasons for
mortality in chams. In the wild the chams live with parasites.
Much research has recently been done on chams a Vitamin A.
Dr. Gary Ferguson and Dr. Rob Coke agree that the vitamin and
calcium deficiency is not found in the wild due to the fact that
chameleons consume small vertebrates. I have never witnessed
a cham choking on a anole or gecko. A chameleon will eat another
smaller chameleon if he can. In my professional opinion way to
much emphasis is placed on parasites and not enough on the
nutritional and husbandry requirements of chameleons. Far more
die from infections caused by fungus and bacteria. Mites carry
the most deadly infectious diseases in reptiles, such as coccidia. Insects can be a host to certain parasites as well.

Legendcham

Legendcham wrote
"I disagree with with the advice not to feed anoles. While they
may carry parasites the advantages of feeding them once or twice
a week outweigh the parasite issue. Your chams should be on a
regular worming schedule."

We'll have to disagree on this one. IMO if your chams are "on a regular worming schedule" there's either something wrong with your husbandry or you've got a much higher turnover of chams than the typically keeper. Worming is not a benign process and regular worming can't be easy on them. And then there's the expense of constant vet visits for worming...... unless you do it yourself. And while you & I have biology backgrounds and can probably obtain the drugs and calculate doses, I shudder to think of the average keeper trying it.

As for the nutritional deficiencies, I agree with you. There's way too much emphasis put on supplements that are toxic at the pharmacological doses most keepers use. But there are a few really good gutload recipes out there that, combined with varying the prey items to include several species of arthropods & gastropods, make feeding vertebrates unnecessary. It's just a risk I'd rather not take.
Ed

In response to the worming scheldule, I recommend that fecals
are regularly done twice a year. I agree that most people would
need the services of a qualified vet in this area. Since you
have a science background then you should know that insects carry
parasites also. I have been feeding my w/c and captive chams anoles for a long time now, and have had no problems with
parasites showing up in the chams. As for the gutload I make my
own, but I know that several people have had positive results
with the cricketfood.com gutload. In a natural enviroment chams
consume the lower vertibrates. Maybe you can provide published
research on cham mortality due to ingestion of the lower vertibrates.

Legendcham

But I don't think the question of chameleon mortality due to ingestion of lower vertibrates was brought up. Rather, I think epollak's concern was the impact on the health chameleons getting 'regular' worm treatments and the implied suggestion that chameleons should be 'shotgunned' with (perhaps) unnecessary worm treatments.
Or did I miss something?
-----
Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

YIKES!!!

I didn't know Nosy Be's ate anoles!!! Ummm...There's no way I'm feeding my chams lil anoles. Crix and worms are okay because theyre not cute. Anoles are cute. I didn't know Panthers ate small vertebrates.

YIKES!!!
-----
Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

What a panther in a captive situation may choose to eat is probably totally different than what one would choose to eat in the wild. Wild chams probably eat a lot of things opportunistically if it is the right size, doesn't taste bad, and doesn't make them sick or injure them. Whether it happens to be a vertebrate, a mammal, a bird, or an insect probably isn't that important. Sometimes animals eat things out of curiosity or because they happen to like something familiar. But, in captivity, they are getting a very limited diet and the proportion of any one type of food may make a big difference.

I did not suggest that people "shotgun" their chams. That
term was not mentioned. I simply refered to "regular worming
schedule." That means a fecal first, then the correct medication
if necessary. I did not realize that my comment would be taken
out of text. Most people that shotgun use Panacur, which is not
effective on all parasites. These chams deserve regular check-ups
like humans. If you can't afford to take them to the vet for
regular fecals and possibly bloodwork then you should not own
one. As I mentioned before, maybe more needs to be addressed about
the husbandry of chameleons. I am lucky because I have access
to the ongoing research that is published for the academic
community.

Legendcham

I agree. I don't worm a cham unless a test shows a problem. Maybe what is a better approach is a program of TESTING for parasites on a regular basis. Some types of parasites are so common they are bound to show up routinely, but the cham may tolerate them if it is healthy and unstressed. It would be a change in the parasite "population" that I would worry about.

You hit the nail on the head. All w/c chameleons have parasites.
I do my own fecals and if the parasite load is too great then I
worm them with the correct medication. Feeding anoles and other
lower vertibrates are maybe offensive to some people. Rats and
mice carry more potential problems for reptiles, but they are
still a mainstay for snakes and other reptiles. Pinky mice are
fed by several cham owners. That may be offensive to some people.

Legendcham

Hi Ed: By Gastopods and Arthropods you are referring to Slugs, Snails, pillbugs and spiders? I understand Slugs and snails have a high degree of desease. I have read that I should not consider these for Darts and assumed likewise for Chams. As for Pillbugs, I can get a hold of these and intend to for my Darts(the small Isopods-woodlice), but what variety would be large enough for a Cham? Please explain further and elaborate for more edification. Very Grateful, Maggie

Mr. Pollock

Your suggestion that I have a high cham turnover rate or
or poor husbandry is very, very offensive. I was not aware
that a professor of psycology had a great deal of knowledge
in parasites. I have a published article in Volume 13,2 2003
of the Jounal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery, reguarding
a earlier study conducted by Dr. Gary Ferguson. Eggs from a
wild female chameleon contained high concentrations of vitamin
A. The study was also done on first generation panthers from
captive chameleons, and showed hypovitamin A symptoms due to
a Vitamin a deficient diet. He specifically mentions the fact
that wild panthers consume small lizards in the wild. He also
states that adult females might regularly feed on small vertibrates during breeding season to provision their eggs with
vitamin A. As you should know excessive vitamin A can be
toxic. It would make more sense to fed a occasional small vertibrate, than to risk over dosing on Vitamin A. Your remarks
have stirred up a hornets nest! My hatch rate is running between
75 and a 100 percent. So far there have been no mortality of
hatchlings. As for husbandry I go to great extremes to make sure
that I am providing the best care possible. My mortality rate
on w/c panthers that were imported last year was 75 percent, which is above average. Maybe you need to have your facts straight before slamming people. This forum is supposed to be
for people to get and exchange valuable information, not to
slander people that you don't even know.

Legendcham

LegendCham: I wondered if it is ever a consideration to deworm the Anole as an option to prevent any parasite transmission? How helpful would that be in the reduction of the risks? After reading the many comments it seems that it is agreed that feeding Anoles/varied diets to Cham is highly desirable. However, the uncertainty is weather the benefits outweigh the risks that are present. Furthermore, should I as a newbie consider taking the risk on a juvinile Cham? Would I have the skills to recognize illness, keep healthy the Cham, or provide quick enough intervention if the need arises? Nutrition is of great concern to me for my new Cham and the many more I hope to have privalegde to own. If you would not mind too much, you can email me privately if you prefer, give further comments on weather feeding Anoles would still be a recommendation for a newbie like me. I appreciate your candor and willingness to offer your assistence. Thank you-Maggie

Maggie,

The first thing that you must do, if you have not already
done it is to find a qualified vet. Not all vets have experience
with reptiles. The second thing that I recommend is to purchase
the book: Understanding Reptile Parasites by Roger J. Klingenberg. It is a very good book that is easy to understand.
A good habit to start is to keep a record of your chams weight.
I would weigh him once a week. Most of the common parasites will
feed off the nutrients in the intestine. The more common parasites are, roundworms, hookworms, and pinworms. If you see
weight loss, then I would have a fecal performed. I do not recommend either worming or doing a fecal on a feeder anole. Now
is a good time to start your 7 month old cham on anoles, that is
provided he will eat them. Not all chams will eat them, but most
will. Like I mentioned before only give him one smaller anole
a week. If it is too large he will not eat it. After a month
or so I would have a fecal done. You should be having fecals
done on ALL of your reptiles at least twice a year anyway. I have
a very large colony of panther chameleons, both captive bred and
wild caught. The staple diet of the males this time of year are
as follows: superworms, roaches and silkworms. The anoles are fed
once to twice a week. The females are given a superworm, crickets
and a occasional silkworm. The females are started on one to
two small anoles a week, once they ready to start breeding. Just
because you are a newbie, does not mean that you can't learn
how to properly take care of your chams. It does require dedication and alot of work. If you research the cause of death
in captive reptiles you will find that nutritional problems is
the number one cause of death followed by bacterial and then
parasites. Ardith Abate discourages the ownership of chameleons
with very good reasons, most people will not spend the time or
money that it takes to make sure that the chams are getting the
proper nutrition and hausbandry. Remember that old saying that
you are what you eat. You need to concentrate your efforts on
providing the best nutrition for your chams. For the record
none of my captive bred chams that eat anoles have tested positive for parasites. So it is my opinion that proper nutrition
outweighs any of the risks of parasites, provided that you keep
a good check on your cham.

Legendcham

Thank you LegendCham, for your comments. I will take them into serious consideration. By chance, is the article that you referred to earlier in the thread available to read? I would like to understand more fully the background of the many valuable pieces of information that you a have already provided. I will obtain the book that you recommended as well, as I am sure that it will be of good resource for both my Chams and my Dart frogs and should be a staple on my referrence shelf. I have undoubtedly stumbled onto a controversial subject that requires more study to understand the complexities. I feel more certain now after reading the precautionary/profilactic steps you mentioned that I will be able to provide more accurate care for my Cham weather I chose to feed an Anole or not. I am reasurred that as a Newbie I will be able to acquire a competent level of Cham keeping Skills that my animals deserve. Thank you for your assistence-Maggie

Maggie,

If you have access to a fax machine then I can fax you the article that was published in the Journal of Herpetological
Medicine and Surgery. It is 10 pages. I also recommend that
you contact Ardith Abate, she is a highly respected member of
the chameleon community. She used to be the director of the
Chameleon Information Network. I do not know her personally,
but I have read several of her published articles on chameleons.
Her address is on the article that I have. Dr. Gary Ferguson
is the head professor of Biology at TCU. His ongoing research
is very good. These people make every effort to publish facts
and not opnions based on good science. I am also conducting my
own studies here at my lab. The bottom line to all of this is
to provide your chameleons with natural food sources that correspond to their nutritional needs. Under and over supplementation are a very serious, and on going problem. Legendcham

I think you need to re-read my post (to which you were responding). I made no derogatory comments about your huisbandry practices. I did say that the procedures you use might be dangerous in thye hands of less knowledgable and/or experienced keepers. Sorry, but I think your flame was uncalled for for.
Ed

Your direct quote was; " IMO if your chams are "on a regular
worming schedule" there's either something wrong with your husbandry or you've got a much higher turnover rate of chams
than the typically keeper." You should have asked for clarification of the "on a regular worming scheldule", instead
making the slanderous remarks that you made. What practices
are you refering to that are dangerous? I already addressed
what I meant by the regular worming schedule. I have cited
published articles as a basis for feeding anoles. I am still
waiting for your proof that feeding anoles is dangerous. Feeding
Gastropods as you suggested is far more dangerous than feeding
anoles as they regularly carry liver and lung flukes. Please
refer to Ivan's remarks, he is a qualified member of scientific
community. I do not think that this is good for the forum.
The forum is to exchange info, not to attack people because they
disagree with you. You can e-mail me privately if you choose,
but the forum is not the place for this nonsense. People are
trying to get reliable info on questions or concerns that they
have. Legendcham

Legendcham

OK. Let's take the ENTIRE quote, not just one piece of it. The entire quote said
"We'll have to disagree on this one. IMO if your chams are "on a regular worming schedule" there's either something wrong with your husbandry or you've got a much higher turnover of chams than the typically keeper. Worming is not a benign process and regular worming can't be easy on them. And then there's the expense of constant vet visits for worming...... unless you do it yourself. And while you & I have biology backgrounds and can probably obtain the drugs and calculate doses, I shudder to think of the average keeper trying it."

It's true that the first part pof the quote sais "your husbandry" (implying a specific "you". But the 2nd part of the quote indicates that the "you" was meant to be more generic. (i.e., ""while you and I have biology backgrounds and can probably obtain the drugs and calculate doses, I shudder to think of the average keeper trying it."

Clearly, my primary concern was for people without the requisite skills and knowledge who try to do regular worming on their own. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize. But I've been at shows where a vendor is selling a Panacur paste for equine use with instructions like "just give your lizard a little bit of this." That was my primary objection.
Ed

Mr. Pollak,

No harm done. I would never, never advocate people using
a Equine paste of Panacur. As I mentioned in a previous
thread, Panacur is not effective on all parasites. By mentioning
worming schedule, I meant that people should have their chams
taken in for a fecal exam at the very least twice a year.
I was not even aware that Panacur was sold at reptile shows.
I am aware that people give their chams Baytril the minute they
see them gape. I think that Baytril is over used. Reguardless
of what people choose to feed their chams, fecals must be a
part of their care. I am trying to give people as much info
as possible so that they can make sound nutritional choices
for their chams. In Madagascar, grasshoppers and Katydids
are their staple diet. There is alot of misinformation out there
that is not based on good science. Legendcham

I'm glad we put out the fire!
Ed

I know several very successful large scale breeders who regularly worm their animals. I also worm twice a year as is recommended in "Care and Breeding of Chameleons" page 106. Anybody having any doubts as to the damage a parasite can do to your breeding program should read "Understanding Reptile Parasites" by Dr. Roger Klingenberg. Having a fecal exam is very inexpensive. The worming medications are both inexpensive and very easy to administer - even by a beginner.

While I fully understand the necessity of regular worming for those who are regularly importing new animals or who are "large scale breeders," I also maintain that a regular worming schedule in the hands of the novice or average cham keeper will cause more harm than good. Statements such as "The worming medications are both inexpensive and very easy to administer - even by a beginner" are, IMO, irresponsible, particularly because the average keeper is unlikely to spring for fecals and winds up "hotgunning." I'd be a little less negative if you'd said qualified your recommendation by saying that these meds can be easily administered "under the supervision of a vet."

The Vosjoli & Ferguson book you cite, while containing a lot of good stuff, includes a lot of material that is dated. The publication date is 1995 so the articles were written at least a year before that. In the world of cham husbandry, that's very only the beginning of our modern understanding. For example, Tremper also asserts that lack of supplementation is the main killer of chams. I'm sure it was true back before 1995 when people didn't know about UVB and when there were no good gutload recipes or good commercially available gutloads. For a more recent slant on the situation see Ken Lopez' excellent article at http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/vetcare.cgi?show=6.0_Vitamin_D3_and_Calcium

Ed

A fecal charge is only $10 done by my vet (and I have 2 of them). Both doctors recommend doing a fecal before the administration of any medication. If somebody cannot afford a $10 fecal charge how could they possibly afford the animal to start with - let alone feeding it? I would think that (especially a beginner) would always consult a vet because they have no experience whatsoever, and would not have a clue as to what to do. Both of my vets agree with the information in "Understanding Reptile Parasite" book. An experienced exotic animal veterinarian who is also a panther owner, and an microbiologist whose parasite knowledge exceeds most veterinarians have put out some valuable advice. How could you possibly find fault with their input? I think it is very clear from their previous posts that feeding anoles in moderation combined with the good husbandry practice of doing regualr fecals has been to the benefit of their animals. All you have to do is look at the quality of their animals in the photo gallery. I know for a fact that Legend Cham has an excellent hatch rate. Beginners could take lessons from these people and it is a blessing that they take the time to post advice for beginners, giving free knowledge from their expertiese. Help from a vet and a microbiologist does not suck!

I do need to add that Panther chameleons are known to be carnivorous and even cannibalistic in their natural habitat. Simply look at a few of Bill Love's pics that show an adult Ambanja panther eating a baby panther. Or check out the pic of the large Oustalet's male eating a small panther and another eating a carpet. Why would it be wrong to allow chameleons to choose their prey if they do so in nature? Do you want to abuse the animal protein content in their diet? Of course not, but if they choose to eat the anole or any other "lower vertebrate" they want to, then so be it because you cannot override nature. They do so for a reason and it could very well be to obtain certain trace elements or vitamins that they can't obtain through their staple diet. Obviously they do not need those nutrients in high enough amounts because otherwise, they would eat lower vertebrates all the time.

It is ok if you want to raise your chameleons in the most sanitary conditions but in reality they are equiped to deal with whatever nature throws their way. If they eat an anole because they want the added nutrition and this leads to parasites, then it is a price to pay for it. That's why you can go to a Vet, have a fecal done and treat the chameleon if needed. If you do not give your chameleon a choice and offer only anoles and other vertebrates then it is wrong, but offering a wide variety of food items is never wrong.

So for the record, I do allow my chameleons to eat anoles if they feel like it. Some eat them as soon as they enter the cage and some ignore them completely. The good news? None have had health problems directly related to nutritional deficiencies and probably 1 or 2 will test positive for hookworms or even roundworms per year.

As a side note, I have seen a lot more problems occurring from allowing chameleons to eat snails and slugs because they are the intermediate host for flukes and that is a nasty parasite.

Just my input,
Ivan

Alicia: [about the stars] I once tried to count them all. I, actually, made it to 4,348.
Nash: You are exceptionally odd.
Alicia: I bet you're very popular with the girls.

Care to elaborate on your post? Doesn't make much sense to me but I would like to know if it does make sense to you.

well...after reading that incredibly long string i felt like i lost iq points...the original question was never really answered..a simple a "yes, you can"...or "no, you shouldn't" would have been great...instead it turned into a "pissing" contest that had little to do with the original question...alot of confusion about vet visits, who knows best, who can throw around the most names doesn't help average keepers like myself learn a damn thing.

Ah, I see. It seems to me that although the topic got derailed a bit, there was much to learn from the opinions of Ed and Legendcham. Not all the answers are easy and this is the purpose of a forum. I apologize for the apparent lack of info to you.

But to answer the question, "Yes you can, but be careful".
Better now for you?

np