Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a 3-toe boxy who comes down with an ear abscess every time she's pregnant, she's had 2 surgery's for it already my vet recommended a diet really high in vitamin A when ties gravid and it seems to be helping so far, she laid her last clutch DEC 28th and i think she may be gravid again and so far there's no abbesses i would like to know if anyone else has had this problem. also if ties going to have huge problems down the road because she won't stop breeding and refuses to go down for hibernation.
thanks
cindy

This is just an observation, but it may be worth looking into (if you haven't already): it seems to me that a recurring infection may be a sign that the bacteria involved may not have been entirely wiped out with antibiotics.
One of my Easterns had an ear infection developing when I rescued him, so I took him to the vet, who had a culture done after the surgery, so we could treat the infection properly but evidently we were unsuccessful because the infection returned, so the process was repeated, but this time the culture results were different (!), as a different bacteria had bloomed. A different antibiotic was used the second time around, this time successfully, and the infection has not returned.
As for her 'refusing' to hibernate, this is certainly unusual: most folks have a hard time keeping theirs 'up'. Do you want her to hibernate? It is thought that lack of hibernation does take its toll on turtles in terms of their overall health, reproductive health and longevity.
Stephanie

It kinda makes sense that the abscess shows during pregnancy because the immune system is probably stressed to the max during that time with such a great deal of energy being placed into reproduction. I'd suggest means of boosting the immune system rather that seeking medical treatment unless absolutely necessary.
The vitamin A idea sounds like a good one if you are using a natural form of the vitamin to reduce the chances of overdosing.
As to the hibernating, I don't know where the idea comes from that hibernation is a necessity and there is absolutely no proof that it increases longevity. If the tortoise is breeding and is healthy I wouldn't think that there should be any alarm as far as the hibernating goes. I believe that there are parts of the 3-toeds range were it does not hibernate which sort of supports the idea that it is not a necessity but an adaptation.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

EJ, I guess you haven't read Dr. Klingenberg's comments on the subject of the necessity of hibernation in the book he co-authored with Philippe de Vosjoli titled "The Box Turtle Manual", but having referred you in the past to another article by Dr. Klingenberg on the subject which makes many of the same points, I can't fathom why you would say that you don't know where people get the information that hibernation is necessary.
In other words, there is information out there, written and published by professionals in the field, stating that hibernation IS necessary.
I know you don't hibernate your own turtles, and that is your decision, but please don't make blanket statements like that: it is your opinion and you should present it as such.
The fact remains that most species of box turtles hibernate in temperate, subtropical and even tropical climates (albeit for shorter periods), and preventing this from happening year after year is not natural. Hibernating is a part of their life-cycle, which explains why most go into "hibernation" mode even though they may be being kept indoors under controlled lighting and temperature.
Unfortunately there is no way for you to prove your theory, and you may never know whether or not your non-hibernated turtles have really lived their full life expectancy.
Regards,
Stephanie

I can’t say that I’ve read Dr. Klingerbergs comments nor Mr. DeVosilois comments but I’d be really surprised if either of them would agree that hibernation was detrimental to the survival of the individual.
My point was that if the animal has no desire to hibernate it would most likely not do any harm to allow it not to hibernate. On the flip side... if it does have a desire to hibernate it will probably do harm not to allow it.
It amazes me to think how many people know how or what I do with my animals without ever seeing how I keep them but that’s a very common misconception.
I do hibernate those animals that are inclined to do so and do not force those that are not.
If I’ve made a blanket statement, that is just my inability to express myself properly. What I was trying to say was that if an animal is not inclined to hibernate there is no problem with it not doing so. On the other hand, if the animal is not inclined to hibernate it most likely will do harm to force it to do so. I've never been able to find any data to support this or dispute it.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Maybe you should take the time to read the chapter in the book mentioned, and also the article mentioned: both outline the problems associated with not hibernating. I quote below an example.
From the book, The Box Turtle Manual, chapter on hibernation, written by Dr. Klingenberg:
"Some box turtles fare well over one winter and make up for any weight and nutrient imbalances by becoming more active in the spring; however, the effects of not hibernating over more than one winter will eventually catch up with the turtle, its health will decline, and its life expectancy will plummet."
There is more in a similar vein.
Since this is a very popular book on the subject of box turtle care, and is quoted and/or cited on a number of popular websites about boxturtle care, its not surprising that many box turtle keepers have the understanding that hibernation is necessary, having deferred to professionals on the subject.
This may not be the final word on the subject, as more is learned about turtles, but is certainly one of the sources where people get their ideas.
You are of a different opinion, and I respect that opinion, but I think you may be doing a disservice by not identifying it as such, thats all.I appreciate your efforts to provide some clarification.

Regards
Stephanie

I don't think I'm doing any more disservice than the person who claims that hibernation is a requirement.
I'll be willing to bet that Dr. Klingenberg is talking about turtles that are driven to hibernation by the environmental conditions present.
I'll just state my point once again. If the turtle is not inclined to hibernate it will most likely do more harm to force it to hibernate than not.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Which is why I prefaced my initial comments on the matter with the words "It is thought...".
Please read the book, so that if and when the subject comes up again we can have more lively intercourse.

Regards,
Stephanie

Personally, I like to go to the source of the opinion that another person forms. My references are Biology of the Reptilia, Turtles - Perspectives and Research among some other good papers that are available on the topic of hibernation.
There's a reason that not many people discuss this highly debatable topic and that is because there is no one answer. The 'depends' factor is huge.
I've already stated my point and lets just say we disagree on that.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

EJ, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I just
wanted to let you know a probable source of information, which in turn might explain the common perception that hibernation is necessary. Thnaks for sharing some of your resources.
Stephanie

"Please read the book, so that if and when the subject comes up again we can have more lively intercourse."

Intercourse with Ed couldn't be anything other than extremely UNlively.

yup, definately a slow night.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

How do you know when an animal is "inclined" to hibernate or not? That is a very vague statement that means very little without clarification. If you keep an animal that would normaly hibernate in the wild under heat lamps and artifical lighting that simulate summer days, how can you tell under these totally unnatural conditions that it does not really want to hibernate? That's like giving a kid 15 cups of coffee and 12 candy bars and then saying, "yeah, Johnny is running around like that because he really doesn't like sleeping." He CAN"T sleep!

Many, if not all, authors of advice on hibernation suggest that you allow the animal to tell you if it needs to hibernate or not. Even those that suggest hibernation is benificial suggest that the animal dictates if it should hibernate or not.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

The animal "tells you" if it wants to hibernate, huh?
That's amazing, Ed. You have apparently trained your tortoises to speak. And here I thought you didn't know anything about them. I stand corrected.

Sure... you look for the signs that the animal gives when it is looking to hibernate. As with any good form of communication you have to listen before you can respond in an intellegent mannor.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care