Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had been feeding my little alligator exclusively on live fish (no goldfish) but had a batch of minnows succumb to a too-rapid water temp change, so I froze them and he was just as happy to eat frozen/thawed. One day he was begging so cutely while I was feeding other cages that I tossed him some trout chow pellets. He loves them, and gobbles them up as soon as they hit the water. He's fat, in both belly and tail base, so this is not starvation or desperation. Is there any harm in maintaining him on trout chow with occasional live food "treats" as long as he's of a size to take the pea-sized pellets.(That probably won't be long -- he's growing fast.) I know conventional wisdom says whole, live food is ALWAYS best, but my turtles live, grow, and breed just fine on Repto-Min. How 'bout a 'gator?

Sorry for the re-post. My computer is spastic! np

I firmly believe that a variety of whole prey items are best. As for cichlid pellets, or trout chow - they are formulated for the needs of those animals. Many of the pellets are quite low in protien and calcium - things that are of vital importance to a growing alligator. Does that mean that you can't throw in a handful of fish food once in a while? no. Does it mean that you should raise your crocodilian on them? no to that too.

Because an animal does ok on them for awhile doesn't prove that the food is adequate - how many years does it take for a poor diet (or smoking) to show it's effect in humans?

Bill

>> As for cichlid pellets, or trout chow - they are formulated for the needs of those animals. Many of the pellets are quite low in protien and calcium - things that are of vital importance to a growing alligator.
>>
>>Bill

Actually, the Cichlid pellets are 1% different in protein than the alligator chow and the rest of the nutrition is virtually identical.

Which brand of cichlid pellets and what formula of gator chow are you comparing it to?

I think I wrote this already somewhere in this thread, but the Gator Chow is from a company I believe to be in Louisian called Burrels and Tetra Cichlid Sticks. What % of protein of what brand are you saying is too low?

>>Which brand of cichlid pellets and what formula of gator chow are you comparing it to?

The question of what constitutes a good diet in the form of dry food is a good one.

I have read a couple of papers that point out the need for specific compositions where it comes to the alligator "chow". One paper, written by Kercheval and Little titled Comparative growth rates in young alligators utilizing rations or plant and/or animal origin" and presented a the CSG meeting in 1990 showed the pointed out that there is substantial difference in growth rates between alligators that are feed a chow that in which the protein is plant based -vs- animal based - with the animal based protein producing much better results.

Another paper written by Staton, McNease, Theriot and Joanen presented at the same meeting titled "Pelletized alligator feed: an update" talks about the the various levels of protein and the benefits of various compositions to alligator growth. The end result was that using Burris Mills/nutria mix that equaled 54% to 56% protein produced the best results.
With that in mind, I attempted to find the composition of the various fish chow on the market. I was unable to determine the source of protein (plant or animal) of any of the foods that I was able to find via internet searches. The only thing I could find ANY data on was at the Purina Mill site

http://www.fishchow.com/aqua/index_aqua.html

The only product here that had any information was the game fish food which specified 32% protein, quite low and in addition, did not say what the source of the protein is.

I contacted Jason at Burris Mills to ask the question. Below is the text of my email and the Burris Mills response.

*************************************************************
Bill,
I will attempt to answer your question in regards to my alligator products. I offer other products besides the two that I am describing here. The reason that I only describe two is that the Kingsnake forum is hobby/pet owners group whose objective is to keep their animal fed a nutritional diet to keep them healthy not commercial growers whose objectives while similar but mainly focuses on maximizing the growth of the animal. So with this stated I recommend for the hobby/pet owners the following:

Bill Moss
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This seems to support that the pellets formulated for fish may not have the nutritional balance required for long-term health of captive crocodilians.

Bill

it's late, and I'm tired

Bill

Bill, that's interesting research (I meant Burris not Burrells).
I really don't know anything about 'trout chow', and my comments were solely based on Tetra Cichlid Sticks. According to the packaging, the minimum crude protein is 46% and I believe the Burris was about 45%.

People can feed whatever they want and my comments were based soley on a nutritional comparison between the Burris gator chow and Tetra Cichlid sticks, and found the nutrition to be near identical. I also do not condone feeding any pelleted diet to any animal as a whole diet but rather as a significant part to a balanced diet (with crocodilians along with fish and mammals).

Ask for the nutritional breakdown of the gator chow, and bring it to Petsmart and compare to the Cichlid sticks.......

Regards,

Rob

>>The question of what constitutes a good diet in the form of dry food is a good one.
>>
>>I have read a couple of papers that point out the need for specific compositions where it comes to the alligator "chow". One paper, written by Kercheval and Little titled Comparative growth rates in young alligators utilizing rations or plant and/or animal origin" and presented a the CSG meeting in 1990 showed the pointed out that there is substantial difference in growth rates between alligators that are feed a chow that in which the protein is plant based -vs- animal based - with the animal based protein producing much better results.
>>
>>Another paper written by Staton, McNease, Theriot and Joanen presented at the same meeting titled "Pelletized alligator feed: an update" talks about the the various levels of protein and the benefits of various compositions to alligator growth. The end result was that using Burris Mills/nutria mix that equaled 54% to 56% protein produced the best results.
>>With that in mind, I attempted to find the composition of the various fish chow on the market. I was unable to determine the source of protein (plant or animal) of any of the foods that I was able to find via internet searches. The only thing I could find ANY data on was at the Purina Mill site
>>
>>http://www.fishchow.com/aqua/index_aqua.html
>>
>>The only product here that had any information was the game fish food which specified 32% protein, quite low and in addition, did not say what the source of the protein is.
>>
>>I contacted Jason at Burris Mills to ask the question. Below is the text of my email and the Burris Mills response.
>>
>>*************************************************************
>>Bill,
>>I will attempt to answer your question in regards to my alligator products. I offer other products besides the two that I am describing here. The reason that I only describe two is that the Kingsnake forum is hobby/pet owners group whose objective is to keep their animal fed a nutritional diet to keep them healthy not commercial growers whose objectives while similar but mainly focuses on maximizing the growth of the animal. So with this stated I recommend for the hobby/pet owners the following:
>>
>> *Small gators 2 feet and less should be fed my 56% Burris Gator Feed in a ¼” pellet size at 2% body weight per day.
>>
>> *Growing gators 2 feet and larger should be fed my 45% Burris Gator Feed X-tra Vit in a 3/8” or larger pellet size at 1% body weight per day.
>>
>>
>>
>>While it is true that you can feed trout feed or even dog feed to your gator these diets are not balanced to the nutritional requirements of your animal which results in nutritional deficiencies. The sources in which the protein is derived in trout and dog feeds are commonly not high in animal sources but rather plant which when fed to a carnivorous animal such as a gator get passed through not allowing for proper nutrient absorption.
>>
>>
>>
>>I hope that this sheds some light on the subject. Please let me know if I can be of further service to you or the group.
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Jason
>>
>>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bill Moss [mailto:mngatorguy@msn.com]
>>Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 9:29 AM
>>To: jasmith@burrismill.com
>>Subject: Gator Chow
>>
>>Hi Jason,
>>
>>A question comes up frequently on the alligator forum at Kingsnake dot com about feeding trout chow vs your product.
>>
>>Would you be so kind as to tell me what the major differences would be and which formula is recommended for the various growth stages of the crocodilian development.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Bill Moss
>>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>
>>This seems to support that the pellets formulated for fish may not have the nutritional balance required for long-term health of captive crocodilians.
>>
>>Bill

I just reread my reply, and I thought it sounded a bit angry - it totally wasn't intended that way!

regards,
Rob

>>Bill, that's interesting research (I meant Burris not Burrells).
>>I really don't know anything about 'trout chow', and my comments were solely based on Tetra Cichlid Sticks. According to the packaging, the minimum crude protein is 46% and I believe the Burris was about 45%.
>>
>>People can feed whatever they want and my comments were based soley on a nutritional comparison between the Burris gator chow and Tetra Cichlid sticks, and found the nutrition to be near identical. I also do not condone feeding any pelleted diet to any animal as a whole diet but rather as a significant part to a balanced diet (with crocodilians along with fish and mammals).
>>
>>Ask for the nutritional breakdown of the gator chow, and bring it to Petsmart and compare to the Cichlid sticks.......
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>The question of what constitutes a good diet in the form of dry food is a good one.
>>>>
>>>>I have read a couple of papers that point out the need for specific compositions where it comes to the alligator "chow". One paper, written by Kercheval and Little titled Comparative growth rates in young alligators utilizing rations or plant and/or animal origin" and presented a the CSG meeting in 1990 showed the pointed out that there is substantial difference in growth rates between alligators that are feed a chow that in which the protein is plant based -vs- animal based - with the animal based protein producing much better results.
>>>>
>>>>Another paper written by Staton, McNease, Theriot and Joanen presented at the same meeting titled "Pelletized alligator feed: an update" talks about the the various levels of protein and the benefits of various compositions to alligator growth. The end result was that using Burris Mills/nutria mix that equaled 54% to 56% protein produced the best results.
>>>>With that in mind, I attempted to find the composition of the various fish chow on the market. I was unable to determine the source of protein (plant or animal) of any of the foods that I was able to find via internet searches. The only thing I could find ANY data on was at the Purina Mill site
>>>>
>>>>http://www.fishchow.com/aqua/index_aqua.html
>>>>
>>>>The only product here that had any information was the game fish food which specified 32% protein, quite low and in addition, did not say what the source of the protein is.
>>>>
>>>>I contacted Jason at Burris Mills to ask the question. Below is the text of my email and the Burris Mills response.
>>>>
>>>>*************************************************************
>>>>Bill,
>>>>I will attempt to answer your question in regards to my alligator products. I offer other products besides the two that I am describing here. The reason that I only describe two is that the Kingsnake forum is hobby/pet owners group whose objective is to keep their animal fed a nutritional diet to keep them healthy not commercial growers whose objectives while similar but mainly focuses on maximizing the growth of the animal. So with this stated I recommend for the hobby/pet owners the following:
>>>>
>>>> *Small gators 2 feet and less should be fed my 56% Burris Gator Feed in a ¼” pellet size at 2% body weight per day.
>>>>
>>>> *Growing gators 2 feet and larger should be fed my 45% Burris Gator Feed X-tra Vit in a 3/8” or larger pellet size at 1% body weight per day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>While it is true that you can feed trout feed or even dog feed to your gator these diets are not balanced to the nutritional requirements of your animal which results in nutritional deficiencies. The sources in which the protein is derived in trout and dog feeds are commonly not high in animal sources but rather plant which when fed to a carnivorous animal such as a gator get passed through not allowing for proper nutrient absorption.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I hope that this sheds some light on the subject. Please let me know if I can be of further service to you or the group.
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Jason
>>>>
>>>>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Bill Moss [mailto:mngatorguy@msn.com]
>>>>Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 9:29 AM
>>>>To: jasmith@burrismill.com
>>>>Subject: Gator Chow
>>>>
>>>>Hi Jason,
>>>>
>>>>A question comes up frequently on the alligator forum at Kingsnake dot com about feeding trout chow vs your product.
>>>>
>>>>Would you be so kind as to tell me what the major differences would be and which formula is recommended for the various growth stages of the crocodilian development.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>Bill Moss
>>>>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>>>
>>>>This seems to support that the pellets formulated for fish may not have the nutritional balance required for long-term health of captive crocodilians.
>>>>
>>>>Bill

The point I was trying to make is that even with the percentage of proteins clearly stated, the type of protein (animal or plant) is not. The protein in the tetra sticks may very well be animal (but I would speculate plant based). As the research shows, the type of protein is also important.

Bill

:::

I would perhaps even state the TYPE of animal protein matters.

I have had much better results with 'red' meats as opposed to 'white' meats. All fowl and mammmal meat seems to outperform all fish meat. With the mammal being at the top by a significant margin.