Reptile & Amphibian Forums

after mating 3 days ago, the male's genital is stuck. it can't retract into the vent. is this normal and what should i do?
thanks in advance

he has a prolapse. If this happened 3 days ago it will probably dry up and fall off If it just happened you can put him in a dish with some salt water in it and help him get it back in that way. Sounds like it may be too late- is it dry? Are both hemipene out or just one?

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2.2 SHCT Leopard geckos: Digger,Big Papa, Big Mama and Jingle Belle
2.4 jungle & leucistic morphs: Van Gogh, Monet,Pissarro, Speckles, Mouthy, and Mama Cass
0.0.1 Normal??? Leo(rescue):Skinny
0.1 Ragdoll cat: Tinkerbell
2.0 Devon Rex cats Gryffindor, Tigger
0.1 Cat Dinah
1.2 Bassett hounds Bogart, Sadie, Hermione
3.0 Feretts Blizzard, Coco, Fuzzums
3.0 Chinchillas

Well you can try soaking him in some warm not hot water for about 30 minutes...when this happend to my male i did tht and it worked good luck

This hasn't happened to me I but I've read about it a bit here. They should retract fairly quickly, unfortunately this should have been addressed more promptly in order to avoid complications. three days is a long time. Get him into a warm bath, I heard if you add---it was either sugar or salt it can help, unfortunately I don't remember which. Maybe some neosporin on it to prevent infection if it is too late to save?
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

. . . you can just put him in a deli cup with warm sugar water in it (don't make him drown in it - just enough to cover his wienee. Leave him in there for awhile - and it could withdraw - although that's a mighty long time. If it doesn't withdraw - take it to the Vet and they can snip it off. They have 2 heme's anyway.

Just remember not to wait so long next time, if it happens.
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

They have 2? really? Thats interesting

Contrary to popular belief they have only on sexual organ and the two hemipeins are part of that one organ..... If one needs to be taken off the male will still be able to breed...... Some species of lizard favor one side sometimes but I am sure leos will have no problem adjusting....

that made me wince when I read it

If left untreated, prolapses can result in tissue death, infection, and the need to amputate the organ.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

. . . what causes this? I've never seen it happen before. Is it just something that happens to herps in general - or is there a husbandry issue that we should be aware of? You're the long-time herper in the crowd, I would be interested in hearing your input (or anyone else, who is experienced too).

It makes me thankful that I'm not a leopard gecko (besides, I don't really enjoy eating mealies . . .)
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

I have heard it is more likely to happen if the male is mated too young. Do you know if this is true?

I would be interested in hearing any causes you know of as well, Marcia.

Thanks for clarifying the sugar part Monte. I though that was it but as another poster said salt I wasn't sure enough to say.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

It is my opinion that the male's hemipens develops seminal fluid that can build up while the organ is inside the body, or from incomplete cleaning (licking) after copulation. Also, there can be residual fecal matter in the cloaca that can transfer on to the hemipens, and harden. This debris can cause it to become "stuck" when it is everted for breeding.

The general rule is that sugar water will draw the moisture out of the swollen tissues, allowing it to be retracted back into the body. This would be the approach to take if the prolapse was recent, but if the hemipens has been outside the body and dries out, salt water may help in the re-absorption of fluid into the tissues which could allow it to invert.

If the hemipene has completely dried out and/or the blood flow to the organ, it can develop gangrene. This can be fatal, and the hemipene must be amputated and treated with antibiotics by a veterinarian.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

n/p
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

. . . for the clarification and info.

Much appreciated . . .
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

fgfg
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Holy Molly Great Gobs Of Geckos
-Aaron-
0.2 rainwater albinos
0.1 hypo tang
1.5 hi yellow
1.3 tremper albinos
1.1 Patternless het albino rainwater
0.2 Tremper Reverse Stripe Tangerine Albino
0.1 Tremper Jungle Albino

Just a question? Why mess with the rest when you can have the best. -Great Gobs Of Geckos-
greatgobsofgeckos@hotmail.com

putting salt in the water should have the same effect as sugar...pulling moisture out of the organ. By adding either to the water you are making the water hypotonic to the fluid in the organ (i think hypotonic is right...) and the organ will release liquid in an attempt to even the osmotic pressure in the organ and out. Not adding anything to the water would make the organ absorb it, as it would allow water in to even the osmotic pressure.

. . . (I might be anthropromorphizing here) - but if I had an owwey "down there" - and I had a choice to put
a) Salt on the wound
b) sugar . . .

I think I might take my chance with sugar. . .

LOL
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

I know what you mean...It's just that Marcia suggested using salt instead of sugar to help the hemipenes absorb moisture...I was just commenting on that I think it would do the same thing as sugar (although it would probably be more painful...lol)

I think the term you are referring to is 'hydophilic' which means a substance that has an affinity for water. While it is true that sodium can be a dessicant, it also increases water retention in tissues. That is why saline solution is used intravenously to keep sick patients hydrated. Also, saline has a pH of about 5.7 which is very close to that of blood.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

All that stuff went.. *WOOSH!* over my head. Lol. I'd just stick with whatever Marcia tells you. She's very knowledgable, if you couldn't tell by her posts..lol
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Geckos will someday rule the world!

4.7.2 Leopard Geckos
2.1.0 Chihuahuas
2.1.0 Rottweiler Mix
1.0.0 Siamese Cat
1.0.0 Dwarf Hamsters

Josh
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she was some kind of scientist for a lot of years and has been breeding geckos for a realy long time too but she doent like to brag about it.
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danny h.

1.3 leopard geckos

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! This is going to be the third time I've tried to type this!!!!! My darn computer keeps shutting off!!!!! Anyway...i'm gonna try one more time...lol anyway...

I did not mean hydrophilic, I meant hypotonic or hypertonic...I just couldn't remember which. When the solution surrounding cells (or permeable membranes) is higher in solute concentration (i.e. salt, sugar, anything dissolveable...lol), than the solute concentration inside the cell (or on the other side of the permeable membrane), water will flow out of the cell to make up for the difference in concentration (osmotic pressure). This is the same reason you can kill a slug by pouring salt on it. You increase the solute concentration around its body and the water in it moves out of the body to make up for the difference...making it shrivel and die! I would think it would be the same for the hemipenes of a male leo. I think this would be very different from injecting a saline solution into the body that is close in concentration to the solutes in blood cells, and pH. Correct me if I'm wrong...but it makes sense to me ??

Osmotic pressure is an expression that relates to the behaviour of salt in a water solution. This water condition has an osmotic pressure that is equal to the osmotic pressure of blood serum and other body fluids. The body’s cell tissue is sensitive to changes in osmotic pressure.

Nature uses a semi-permeable membrane to enclose each single cell of body tissue, and it can be said that the membrane behaves as a screen (but I do not think that this definition is not technically correct). The membrane allows the passage of smaller molecules (such as water) but disallows the passage of larger molecules (such as sodium chloride).

In water that is isotonic with blood serum and other body fluids, the osmotic pressure is equal on each side of the cell membrane, so there isn’t a net transfer of fluids across the cell membrane. The saline solution used as an intravenous drip in hospitals is an isotonic solution. Injections and intravenous drips must not be hypotonic solutions... they must be isotonic.

Hypertonic water conditions have an osmotic pressure that is higher than the osmotic pressure of blood serum and other body fluids, and hypotonic water conditions have an osmotic pressure that is higher than the osmotic pressure of blood serum and other body fluids. Sodium chloride salt concentration greater than 9000 ppm is hypertonic with blood serum, and less than 9000 ppm is hypotonic.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

well...that's basically what i was trying to say with the saline intravenous drip thing...lol that the solute concentration is very close...I just didn't use the word isotonic...lol It's been awhile since I went through that stuff. But wouldn't putting salt into water and soaking a leos hemipenes "suck" water out of them? If you left the water more pure wouldn't the organ be able to absorb it best? I dunno...I'm just going from what I've learned and trying to apply it...I could be completely wrong!...lol Although the salt thing with slugs I know...I know its because of the hypo/hypertonic conditions. I would think it would be the same for the hemipenes.

This has been a good exchange of theories! Since my background is mainly in Organic Chemistry and Materials Science, my understanding of Biochemistry is somewhat limited. However, I do know that there is a great deal of difference between snail or slug tissue and animal tissue.

Animal tissue is oxygenated on a cellular level by circulating blood, which has a relatively high percentage of salt. (I'm not sure what the actual percentage is in reptile blood/tissue.) Mollusks, on the other hand, do not circulate blood on a cellular level. Instead, their bodies have cavities that are filled with blood and their hearts simply bathe the tissues when it pumps. The main difference, though, is that the blood and tissues of mollusks to not contain any salt.

When pure salt is put directly on a slug's body, some of the salt dissolves in the water on it's skin. The concentration gradient (or hypo/hypertonic conditions) between that external salty water and the non-salty water inside the snail causes water to flow out by osmosis. This water in turn dissolves more salt, keeping up the external salt concentration, which continues to extract more water. Eventually the slug dehydrates.

Since animal tissue contains salt, and depending on the hyper/hypotonic conditions of salt water that is used, soaking dehydrated tissue (such as a male gecko's hemipene) in salt water would have the opposite effect as long as the tissue is still alive and there is blood circulation. Materials may move by passive transport--diffusion, facilitated diffusion, and osmosis. Osmosis does not require the cell to use its own energy but is determined by concentration gradients of substances dissolved in the water that makes up most of the cell.

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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I already know most of what you explained...although I'm sure a lot of people on the forum don't and have completely lost interest in this thread...lol So wouldn't not adding anything to the water allow more water to be absorbed by the hemipenes than adding any salt? If you add salt you are making the concentration of salt in the water closer to that in the leos cells, therefore lowering the rate of osmosis/diffusion. If you added more than the concentration in the cells than wouldn't water flow out? Is there something I'm missing here?...lol I just don't understand how adding salt could increase the hydration of the organ. Also, wouldn't you have to know the right amount to add to maximize absorption and avoid dehydration if the concentration exceeded that of the concentration in the hemipenes?

Again, we are talking about the difference between a hemipene that has recently remained prolapsed where the tissue is still alive and there is blood circulation vs. one that has already become dehydrated. We know that a swollen hemipene would require less moisture in the tissues in order for it to invert, but a dry hemipene would require rehydration before this would be possible. There are several theories in regard to the way salt water affects tissue depending on it's hypo/hypertonic properties.

One is, that living/hydrated tissue contains a higher concentration of water and dissolved solids than salt water, so the solution passes into the tissue cells through their semi-permeable membranes, adding water to the inside of the cells.

Another explanation is that the saline solution does not actually penetrate the tissue cells at all. Instead, it just flows into the spaces between cells, where it draws out some moisture through the semi-permeable membrane of cells, increasing the concentration of naturally occurring sodium inside the cells.

A third theory is that a higher concentration of salt inside dehydrated tissue cells causes protein strands to denature. The tightly wound proteins unwind and get tangled together, then the proteins form a matrix that traps water molecules and holds onto them tightly.

Like I mentioned, much of the biochemistry involved in this is not my specialized field, and perhaps you could explain it better. This could be a very interesting research topic, and one I would certainly like to understand in greater detail.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Well...I definitely can't explain it better...lol I'm just going off stuff I've learned in the past...none of which goes past basic chem 101, 102. I don't take biochem till next year...lol
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

oh...btw...I'm in an orgo class this semester! lol I'm looking forward to it much more than basic chem...I despise math! Although I don't really enjoy any chem too much...hehe Hopefully I'll do well though...I need to if I want to get into vet school!