Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a horned leaf chameleon that is begging to crash. He was doing great, visibly eating regularly, very mobile etc. He is now starting the wither away. He is kept in a 20 gallon. temps between 68 night and 78 day. Humidity is always above 75%. Can you recover a pygmy chameleon?

This happens a lot. Whether it is from the CONSTANT humidity (as opposed to a drier-wetter pattern) and bacterial buildup in the tank, undiagnosed diseases in these guys, nutritional problems I don't think we know. There is a keeper on the http://www.chameleonjournals.com forum who has kept some of the leaf chams to 2 and 3 generations who might have some ideas. His name is Doug Johnson. You can search the site's keepers list to find him I think.

Is this a wild caught animal or captive born (or bred)???
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1.1 pygmy leaf
1.1 carpet
1.0 jackson
0.0.3 red eared sliders

I have no way of knowing. You I guess I will say this. I am so tired of these mysterious creatures turning up in pet stores. I wish we all could pull togheter to introduce legislature that would restrict the importation of any species that has not been successfully breed in captivity. There are so many factors that influence the growth of these incredible creatures, and it is irresponsible for any of us to think that we can maintain them.

This guy ends up being another victim.

P.S. I an not an animal activist, I am an elephant trainer, but I wish activist would stop hasseling me and start looking at doing some good.

Sam

He/she is probably Wc, imported. It's a Brookesia superciliaris, correct? You might want to lower the daytime temperature abit, to the low to mid 70's and put him in the bathtub and run a low semi-warm shower. Use a piece of indoor carpeting and some small branches and potted plants. Its like a rain chamber. Sometimes that will help, the only other thing is to contact a vet, if you want to spend the time/effort and resources on an animal that may die on you. Good luck and hope everything turns out OK

Well Sam it has nothing to do with the importation of a species. It has to do with the Seller being honest and informing the buyer of the status (W/C or C.B.) of the animal. It is also up to the buyer to ask all pertinent questions before they purchase the animal. It is just like buying any live animal. The research needs to be done first, all information that can be obtained from the seller needs to be obtained, and then follow on research even after the animal is in it's new environment. I spend on the average 18(sometimes more) hours a day on my computer. 100% of it is for my reptile Business. I am constantly doing research even on species that I have kept successfully for years.

Also you basically contradicted yourself in your last post. How is a species supposed to be established and bred in captivity if it is not imported first. Pretty much all the Brookesia species as well as a large number of the Rhampholean species have been bred in captivity by many breeders. One thing you may not know, the pygmy species have a very short life span and when you received the animal it very well could have been close to its life expectancy. It is not irresponsible to think we can maintain them in captivity, it is irresponsible when the information is not gathered and the buyer does not give the animal every possible chance to thrive in captivity.

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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.net
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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Thank you for your response. Obviously you would have to have some animlas imported and breeding tested. If it was successful then those animals could be sold. I did not go out and purchase this chameleon. It was in a pet store and the owner did not realize they are not legal in MA. He asked me to take it because I have a USDA license and can keep these type of animals. I have built my entire career on rearing and caring for animals. I never spare any expense to maintain them. Recently, I came accross a group of Madagascar Giant Pill Bugs. Similar to the horned leaf chameleons, these creatures have never been reported to breed in captivity and they have not survived for more than 6 months. There is very little information on these guys, however somebody in africa takes them out of the wild to sell to us. I have been trying to find ways to keep them alive, and so far i have lost one of three in 4 months. Somethimes people need to be tempered because their curiosity can damage the environment. I respect those that work hard to raise ad breed reptiles and insects. I do it myself, I just think it would help if we put each species welfare ahead of our curiosity. You are very thoughtful and I appreciate the info on the horned chameleon. I am not advocating and end to pet stores, just asking that they be regulated in the best interest of the exotic pets they sell.

Thanks,

>>these creatures have never been reported to breed in captivity and they have not survived for more than 6 months.

I have maintained various Brookesia sp. for 4 years and bred a couple species. My average is 2-3 years. My personal trick is simply to set them up right, and to purchase animals in good condition to begin with. After that point, I have found they can do quite well with knowledge of their natural habitat and general care requirements. I completely agree with Rob, if the new owner takes the correct responsibility, these animals have a good chance of survival and reproduction. In your case, you didn't have that option but I feel to label, based on this one experience is a misjudgement. In reality, if correctly placed, these animals have the chance to survive, breed and flourish, the vast majority of the time, however, they are not placed in the environment where this is possible. Having worked with 8 species of dwarf/leaf chameleon, I have to say they are capable of successful propogation in the correct hands.
Chris
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tacking Database - http://www.chameleondatabase.com/

Sam,

Do you have any documentation showing the Pygmy Chameleons are illegal in MA? I have never head such a story before and to quite frank, I doubt it unless I can see documentation of it. What else is supposedly illegal in MA? Also USDA does not govern Reptiles. The only time USDA is involved with Reptiles is when a location is licensed through USDA they then have to abide by USDA regulations on housing of every animal in that location but other than that they have no jurisdiction on Reptiles. I use to be licensed by USDA for one reason. Breeding Certain Exotic animals (Sugar Glider, etc). I got fed up with the local inspectors political BS games that I stopped breeding them and never renewed my License.
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.net
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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I hear what you are all saying. I agree with it all and you all sound like responsible people. I wonder how many out there that end up purchasing these guys are like you. I know that the USDA does not regulate reptiles. But as a licensed exhibitor, they have oversight for all of my animals includind birds and reptiles. The pet store owner told me that he originally thought that the pygmy chameleon was only a chameleon look a like, but that all chameleons are illegal in MA. I had never heard that before, but I guess they are illegal in some states, like crocs and venoumous snakes are illegal too.

I guess I am jumping the gun a bit with this whole reptile legislature thing, I just hate to wait until some of these guys dissapear out there. I will keep trying to get this chameleon back on its feet. But I also know how unlikely it is to survive.

Thanks for your help!

Well I have never heard of Chameleons being illegal in any stte except Hawaii. I would double check on that if I were you as there is no reason for a Chameleon to be made illegal in any state (other than Hawaii).
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.net
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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