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In my opinion probably the most dangerous of all nonvenemous snakes.
Now before all you burm owners get your shorts in a wad let me explain.
Without a doubt,other than the ball python, burms are the tamest pythons period. For the giant snakes they are so by and far the tamest no other species is even worth mentioning. I call them ambassadors of the snake world. There is no reason that such a large potentially dangerous predator is so gentle. It is just not natural. Most burms are simply docile by nature. And there lies the danger.
Most peoples first big (over 10 feet) snake is a burm. They get use to the size they learn about the care, responsibilty, and husbandry of a large snake. And usually get to learn all that without getting bit. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most people don't want to get bit by a 12 foot anaconda or retic or rock. And I'm not saying it is automatic that these snakes will bite you but it is much more likely. What does this mean? Lots of people have giant snakes(burms) that really have no business having a giant snake. Burms are so docile so forgiving they make it easy.
All that being said they are STILL a wild animal. If you do something stupid put yourself in a bad situation you can be killed, even by a 10 foot snake.
Usually this will be a feeding response. I hate to break hearts but compared to other reptiles(crocs, tortoises,monitors) snakes are not terribly bright they are very primitive and therefore react to very primitive stimuli.
If you open the cage with a rabbit in your hand they smell rabbit they feel a mammals heat they attack. Your hand in there mouth and they are wrapping up your arm. Maybe they let go or maybe, and this has happened many times in the U.S., they keep squeezing. 10 foot you can probably get away. 13 foot maybe. 15 feet or bigger if you are by yourself you're probably a deadman.
Other scenarios we all put them on our shoulders around your neck is a hell of a place to start. Its cold the snake constricts to get warmer before you know it you're having trouble breathing. You try to pull him off ...
I use to be a paramedic and you reduce bloodflow(02) to the brain and it takes very little time before rational thought escapes followed quickly by losing consciousness.
I've had 30 or more 13foot plus burms. And other than when they are protecting there eggs every one of them was docile.
I have a reptile show and more than once I have cringed when a kid unexpectedly behaved inappropriately. Sometimes I almost wish one would snap just to remind everyone of the potential danger, but they don't. As long as you're careful when feeding, opening the cage, and when you retreive eggs you will probably never have a negative experience with a burm. Unfortunately familiarity breeds contempt or at least nonchalance and thats when accidents occur. Be careful.D.C.

>>

category as well. How many people go to pet a strange dog that weighs 80-100 and has gigantic teeth in its mouth and thinks nothing of it? That same person runs away screaming when a person has a cornsnake around his/her neck. I see this EVERYDAY, yet dogs kill more people in this country than all of the "exotic" reptiles combined. Honestly, for the most part, if you have a pet snake that you have raised since birth and you get bitten or "attacked", it is probably your own fault. Dogs on the other hand, rarely but it happens, will turn on an owner for no reason, or maybe just an innocent bystander. The people you see that get attacked by big Burmese pythons are usually the morons that keep them "free roaming" in their house and cannot afford to feed them as regularly as they are accustomed to. You have a baby burm and you want it to grow fast so you feed it twice a week for the first 3 years of its life (bad idea, but it happens). Now you have a 10-14 foot long snake you can no longer afford to feed but maybe every 3 weeks. Well, guess what, snakes can get into a routine feeding mode and when the food isn't coming and your big "pet" gets hungry and is used to feeding on hairy mammals (we are in that category), you may want to close the door to your 10 year olds room at night just to be sure.
Can big snakes be dangerous....yep! Can owners be morons and lazy....yep! The truth about owning animals of any species is that they will NEVER be fully "domesticated". 100,000 years of evolution will not be "bred out" in just a few hundred or even a thousand years. This goes for dog, cat, bird, lizard, fish and Burmese python owners alike. Just my $0.02 Derek

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

I agree 100%. I've been bitten, scratched and basically mauled by my CATS more than any other animal I have. Even my kids.
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1.1 Ball Python 0.0.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband and now...
0.0.1 Pink Zebra Beauty Tarantula
2.0 Solomon Island Boas

While I absolutely agree that I would much rather be bitten or "attacked" by any of the other animals I own (geez, a rat bite was worse than when I was bitten by a 9' burm) I am a dog trainer and would like anyone who reads this to check out this website.
http://www.thedogplace.com/library/articles156.htm

I currently own 7 dogs, including a Rottie (that does bite work and AKC obedience) 5 Belgian malinois and an Australian Shepherd. The one most likely to bite...the Aussie. that's just the way it worked out.

Anyhow, just as the media skews the danger involved in snake handling, dog bites are also "misinterpreted". I handle truly aggressive dogs on a regular basis. They are few and far in between and include a wide range of breeds, the last few have been and Airedale Terrier (80lbs of terrier!) a Cairn terrier mix, and a pit bull terrier (who was incidentally the best of the three) I have never been bitten by any of the so called "dangerous dogs", but I've been bitten twice by cocker spaniels, once by a yorkie mix, once by the cairn terrier mix, and once by a Bichon (which was my own mother's dog).

Bullsnakes are notoriously aggressive, but you don't hear people fussing about it like they do the large snakes, who are many times more docile (even retics). Why? Potential damage.

should be "would rather be bitten or attacked by a snake than any of my other animals...

I agree with some of what you say here, but not entirely. I have been keeping reptiles of every kind since the mid 1970's and predominantly large constrictors. I have kept literally hundreds of giants over the past three decades and curently have over 100 large snakes. In all that time and with all those numbers of snakes I have never had a snake view me as potential food. I have been grabbed and mistaken for food, but there is a big difference. Mistaken identity and a snake wanting to consume a human are entirely different, though the physical act may seem identical. I personally have never seen a snake indicate interest in wanting to eat a human. But like I said I have been grabbed and wrapped many times in an instant of mistaken identity with a rabbit. Never when it was just me by myself, but when there was a rabbit present, though there have been countless strikes at movement that could have counted as that. But the point is,.. the overwhelming majority of burms, retics and rocks do not consider human mammals as a food item. (in my experience and opinion) Regardless of how hungry they may become. Just like I have some individuals that won't take a rat, but love rabbits. Or vice versa. They could live side by side with these animals that they don't like and even starve before they would take one. Very similar, though a more extreme example. And for the record, every time I have been grabbed and wrapped by a large constrictor (the first time when I was about 11 or 12) I remained still and was released with the snake showing no more interest in me as food.

Now, before I get my head taken off by the extremists on the other end of this debate, lol,... I am not by any means saying that such burms, rocks and retics don't exist. I am sure that there are those that would or could take a human as prey under certain circumstances. I have yet to witness it, but conceed that the odds have it that it DOES exist. But what I am saying is that the vast majority of these snakes will not. Though feeding accidents that can result in death are reletively common. And the simple fact that such individual snakes CAN exist then all precautions should always be taken and all reptiles should always be contained in such a manner that they can't have access to people. Even smaller, more "harmless" reptiles. As much for the reptile's safety as for any person's safety.

>> The people you see that get attacked by big Burmese pythons are usually the morons that keep them "free roaming" in their house and cannot afford to feed them as regularly as they are accustomed to. You have a baby burm and you want it to grow fast so you feed it twice a week for the first 3 years of its life (bad idea, but it happens). Now you have a 10-14 foot long snake you can no longer afford to feed but maybe every 3 weeks. Well, guess what, snakes can get into a routine feeding mode and when the food isn't coming and your big "pet" gets hungry and is used to feeding on hairy mammals (we are in that category), you may want to close the door to your 10 year olds room at night just to be sure.
>>Can big snakes be dangerous....yep! Can owners be morons and lazy....yep! The truth about owning animals of any species is that they will NEVER be fully "domesticated". 100,000 years of evolution will not be "bred out" in just a few hundred or even a thousand years. This goes for dog, cat, bird, lizard, fish and Burmese python owners alike. Just my $0.02 Derek
>>
>>-----
>>Derek Roberts
>>Sonoran Reptile
>>sonoranreptile@earthlink.net
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores. Heck, much less if some live in the same states as others" Mia Myselfani

"All deeds be they good or bad shall be repaid one hundred fold." Yers Troolie

A thought to ponder...
The more "primitive" or wild a creature is perceived to be, the more tolerance is exhibited by humans regarding "behavioral indiscretions". We are very quick to blame ourselves (rightfully so) when we get tagged by a snake due to a feeding response or simply too fast a movement, but so fast to label a dog "vicious" if it growls, snaps or bites at a human. It amazes me that we (collectively as a species) invest so much time an effort in studying the behavior of "exotic" animals and yet the average dog owner knows nothing of dog behavior. Even though we've essentially "created" the dog as we know it today, people still do not know how to behave or communicate with them. For example, I've never seen a case of a dog bite that didn't have at least 10 times as much warning as any reptile "incident" I've experienced. You just have to know what you're looking at.

The Readers Digest version of my long original post.
1) Most people do not want to get bit by a large constrictor. If you say you don't mind either you have not been bit or you're stupid.
2) Burmese by nature are docile, and forgiving snakes. It's not hard to keep a burm 10 years and not get bit.
3) There lies the problem. You may think you're a snake person when really you're just a burmese person.
4) Even though you're aware of your snakes strong feeding response you still have no idea how dangerous this can be.
One day, very cavalier, your on the cell phone with your girlfriend and go to toss your burm a rabbit. It smells the rabbit and strikes missing the rabbit hits you. Immediately you're wrapped up on the floor screaming in the phone to call 911.
THIS IS WHY BURMESE ARE SO DANGEROUS.
If this same owner would have shown this same nonchalance with a rock, retic, or anaconda they would have been bit years before.
And then 2 things could have happened. They became smarter more aware, more appreciative of potential danger.
Or they would have sold the snake and bought a pitbull.
D.C.

You are describing a hypothetical situation that can happen to anyone with just about any dangerous animal. I have owned some of the deadliest scorpions in the world and all it would have taken was for me to do something stupid and get stung.....and then who knows. It just seems to me that you are singling out these particular snakes when you can plug in ANY animal into you scenario and make it work. ALL people who work with venomous reptiles, arachnids and even select saltwater animals are at way more risk than Burm owners in my opinion. Someone reads some report of a person getting strangled by his pet burm and automatically ALL Burms are vicious killers. I know that may be way overexaggerated, but that kind of thinking in the non-reptile community goes on more often than not. Educate yourself and others, and this kind of thinking will fall by the wayside....for the most part. Derek
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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

Derek
Clearly I still need to simplify.
Burms are the most docile of all large snakes.
Probably one of three of the most docile pythons period.
If we can't agree on this I'm beating my head against the wall.
Being gentle means they are easier to keep than other large species ie. rocks ,retics,anacondas.
Being easier means people with LESS experience can capably keep them.
After successfully keeping them for a while the inexperienced keeper begins to have illusions of grandeur. They feel confident they totally trust their snake and feel they are becoming an expert .
Okay Derek here it is.
There lies the danger.
Docility aside most burms still have a strong feeding response. If you stick a rabbit under your chin so you can unlock the cage to feed your burm. The snake feels heat and smells rabbit. BOOM! he hits you in the chest wraps up you and the rabbit kills both of you. Eats the rabbit and crawls back in the cage. NOT hypothetical DID happen.
Comparing pits and chows and rotts to burms is crazy. Compare St. Bernards to Burms.
If I walk in a yard with a doberman I'm prepared I'm watching the dog if I have a weapon I'm ready with it. If I walk in ayard with a St. Bernard or a lab. I'm not near as concerned.
Dobies and rotts those are your rocks retics and anacondas even the "tame" ones you never really trust not like you would a burm.
OF COURSE all large constrictors can kill you its just most people are a little more cautious and seasoned that own large rocks,retics.
A little bit about myself:
The facility I worked at had taipans, king browns,4 species of mambas,8 species of cobras etc...
For 2 years I was in charge of that collection. I don't consider myself an expert with venemous. I have a friend quite a bit younger than me who has forgotton more about venemous than I'll ever know.
Arachnids I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't need to know. I have emps and all I know is they can't kill me.
Crocodilians I know.(43 individuals-10 species)
Big snakes I know.
Take it or leave it. D.C.

I understand what you are saying perfectly and it was well worded. Familiarity breeds complacency,... complacency leads to unexpected mishap and unforeseen danger,.... unforeseen danger with an adult burmese can mean certain death. Simply because,.. if this happens, and there is no help nearby,... there is not always a second chance when mishap happens with a big burm (or any giant snake for that matter).

It's SO true. I get bit quite a bit. And it's usually when I am beginning to get overconfident or complacent. Those are the two biggest character flaws one can develop when one works with a potentially deadly animal.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

>>Derek
>>Clearly I still need to simplify.
>>Burms are the most docile of all large snakes.
>>Probably one of three of the most docile pythons period.
>>If we can't agree on this I'm beating my head against the wall.
>>Being gentle means they are easier to keep than other large species ie. rocks ,retics,anacondas.
>>Being easier means people with LESS experience can capably keep them.
>>After successfully keeping them for a while the inexperienced keeper begins to have illusions of grandeur. They feel confident they totally trust their snake and feel they are becoming an expert .
>>Okay Derek here it is.
>>There lies the danger.
>>Docility aside most burms still have a strong feeding response. If you stick a rabbit under your chin so you can unlock the cage to feed your burm. The snake feels heat and smells rabbit. BOOM! he hits you in the chest wraps up you and the rabbit kills both of you. Eats the rabbit and crawls back in the cage. NOT hypothetical DID happen.
>>Comparing pits and chows and rotts to burms is crazy. Compare St. Bernards to Burms.
>>If I walk in a yard with a doberman I'm prepared I'm watching the dog if I have a weapon I'm ready with it. If I walk in ayard with a St. Bernard or a lab. I'm not near as concerned.
>>Dobies and rotts those are your rocks retics and anacondas even the "tame" ones you never really trust not like you would a burm.
>>OF COURSE all large constrictors can kill you its just most people are a little more cautious and seasoned that own large rocks,retics.
>>A little bit about myself:
>>The facility I worked at had taipans, king browns,4 species of mambas,8 species of cobras etc...
>>For 2 years I was in charge of that collection. I don't consider myself an expert with venemous. I have a friend quite a bit younger than me who has forgotton more about venemous than I'll ever know.
>>Arachnids I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't need to know. I have emps and all I know is they can't kill me.
>>Crocodilians I know.(43 individuals-10 species)
>>Big snakes I know.
>>Take it or leave it. D.C.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores. Heck, much less if some live in the same states as others" Mia Myselfani

"All deeds be they good or bad shall be repaid one hundred fold." Yers Troolie

If you own snakes, you get bit. It is a FACT of owning snakes. Please list the number of people you know that have been KILLED by a burmese python. Here is my list:

I too have kept and am in charge of keeping the largest retail collection of reptiles in Arizona. I have been bitten and attacked by just about every non-venomous reptile there is. Since when do responsible Burmese python owners walk around its enclosure with a dead rabbit in their hand? Why not just hang the rabbit out of your mouth and make it a sideshow? Have any of you ever heard of using 60 inch "grabbers" for Burmese pythons when it comes to feeding? Seems to me with these unpredictable animals that that is what you would need to use. It is not the Burms fault if you are too lazy to take precautions just become YOU have become too complacent.

I was using the comparison with other pet animals and Burms to show that ANY animal you have as a pet can be "potentially" dangerous no matter how long you have had it, how tame it is, and how trusting you are. Animals are NOT human and do not play by the same set of rules no matter how much you would like to think otherwise. I think you are singling these snakes and may be amiing it seem like they are the ONLY big reptile that can be tame yet can strike at any moment. I see pitures of Bob Clark and "Fluffy" his gigantic retic with children siting on her and petting her but yet I see no outrage about the children maybe getting eaten. My guess is that it is because this animal is owned by a responsible person and knows his animal well. Oh, right, even then bad things can happen. Well, maybe we shouldn't own exotic animals that weigh more than 10 lbs. Maybe we shouldn't drive cars or walk down the street either.
If you are smart and make intelligent choices about animals and what to own and what not to own, chances are you will not be on the "List of Dead Burmese Victims" in the near future. If you make dumb decisions and get bit and wrapped by a large snake, I would venture a guess and say it was your fault, not the snake. Maybe this thread should be titled "Dumb Humans Who Own Potentially Deadly Snakes are Dangerous". Derek
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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

The weird thing about this string of posts in this thread is that you are both right and are both saying virtually the same things. Yes, we get bit and rarely die. Yes it is our fault when we do. And yes, it is our responsibility to take precautions.

So why get upset or all worked up? It seems that we are all on the same side. We love the snakes and they are cool to have.

>>If you own snakes, you get bit. It is a FACT of owning snakes. Please list the number of people you know that have been KILLED by a burmese python. Here is my list:
>>
>>I too have kept and am in charge of keeping the largest retail collection of reptiles in Arizona. I have been bitten and attacked by just about every non-venomous reptile there is. Since when do responsible Burmese python owners walk around its enclosure with a dead rabbit in their hand? Why not just hang the rabbit out of your mouth and make it a sideshow? Have any of you ever heard of using 60 inch "grabbers" for Burmese pythons when it comes to feeding? Seems to me with these unpredictable animals that that is what you would need to use. It is not the Burms fault if you are too lazy to take precautions just become YOU have become too complacent.
>>
>>I was using the comparison with other pet animals and Burms to show that ANY animal you have as a pet can be "potentially" dangerous no matter how long you have had it, how tame it is, and how trusting you are. Animals are NOT human and do not play by the same set of rules no matter how much you would like to think otherwise. I think you are singling these snakes and may be amiing it seem like they are the ONLY big reptile that can be tame yet can strike at any moment. I see pitures of Bob Clark and "Fluffy" his gigantic retic with children siting on her and petting her but yet I see no outrage about the children maybe getting eaten. My guess is that it is because this animal is owned by a responsible person and knows his animal well. Oh, right, even then bad things can happen. Well, maybe we shouldn't own exotic animals that weigh more than 10 lbs. Maybe we shouldn't drive cars or walk down the street either.
>>If you are smart and make intelligent choices about animals and what to own and what not to own, chances are you will not be on the "List of Dead Burmese Victims" in the near future. If you make dumb decisions and get bit and wrapped by a large snake, I would venture a guess and say it was your fault, not the snake. Maybe this thread should be titled "Dumb Humans Who Own Potentially Deadly Snakes are Dangerous". Derek
>>-----
>>Derek Roberts
>>Sonoran Reptile
>>sonoranreptile@earthlink.net
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores. Heck, much less if some live in the same states as others" Mia Myselfani

"All deeds be they good or bad shall be repaid one hundred fold." Yers Troolie

If you own snakes you're going to get bit. Gee thanks for clearing that up. I'm 47 I've been catching and keeping since I was 13. My first venemous was a southern copperhead at 15 I bought my first boa at 16. After 34 years of keeping snakes nice to know I'm going to get bit.
BTW don't insult me by comparing working retail in AZ to working a Reptile Park in TX. Unless your on an Indian reservation we all know the AZ laws concerning venemous and crocodilians to for that matter. So unless you're working retail in FL chances are you don't work much with taipans, mambas, or cobras.
That is not even the point which most people have gotten except for you.
I've bent over backwards extolling the gentle nature of burms. I think it is always the keepers fault. Snakes have a tiny primitive brain that reacts instinctively.
The firefighter in OH killed by his rhino viper, tragic but his fault. The girl zookeeper killed by her personal gaboon, tragic but her fault.
It is always the keepers fault. The very fact they are in captivity putting them in the situation where they can harm you, is your fault.
I've never been wrapped up by a giant snake. But many people I know and respect have been. People that have more experience than me and certainly more than you.
You've never been wrapped up and you always use 60 inch grabber to feed burms tells me one of 2 things. You don't have much experience or you are the most disciplined keeper in the world. I'm thinking the former but if you're the latter I bow and genuflect.
I myself have put myself in danger several times. I
m sure my old boss moved me out of venemous after 2 years for that reason. Like Brian said familiarity breeds complacency.
Babys owner Lou wrapped up by a big retic. Ernie Lanier owner of Colossus(maybe bigger than Baby) wrapped up by a 17 foot albino burm, my old boss wrapped up by an 18 foot male retic. Of course all the guys survived being professionals and having help in the immediate vicinity.
An 18 year old in an apartment may not fare so well.
Once more for clarification,if that is possible.
I love burms.
Burms are docile.
Accidents do happen and they are always the keepers fault.
BUT, burms are not giant ball pythons.
Burms have a strong feeding response.
And burms can kill you.
D.C.
If you don't understand this. I'm done.

Brian
I was actually hoping you would read these post because I knew you would understand. I am a little surprised that other people are having such a hard time. Not everyone needs a giant snake bottom line.
A while back I read a post of yours that I really liked so much in fact I wrote it down(don't worry I won't claim it as mine.) You were talking about the differences in rocks burms and retics. It was short, concise andPERFECT. I even read it to my wife who totally did'nt care or appreciate it. I read that post and thought my god here is someone who has not only had the snakes but understands them. I would add to that short list anacondas are unpredictable. Of course this is a generalization like your list but generalizations work and I think they facilitate communication. Always realizing there are exceptions to every rule.
Now back to Derek.
D.C.

When asking if people knew how many died from Burmes...2002, Feb 13, Richard Barber , 43 died of ashpyxiation caused by his "tame"
Burmese python "Monty", in Aurora, Co.

October, 2002 a 19 yr old Bronyx NY boy was killed by his 11' 45# burmese python (this is the Burm you referred to Danny, it was not a Reticulated, I stand corrected here for all to see, with humble apologies to you)

July 20th 1993 Commerce City, Co, a 15 year old boy was killed by his 53# 11'2" burmese...

There are more, the child in Reno, NV in the 80's, etc... and these are Burms, there are several Retic caused death's...

Comparing lethal scorps to burmese is silly. One, look at how many people actually keep potentially lethal scorpion species compared to those who keep burmese....then add the factor that most scorpion keepers who have charges such as Androctonus, Buthacus, Centruroides(central American species), Leiurus, etc..are generally competant experienced hobbyists, compared to the "newby" burm ownership rate, and we quickly see an apples/oranges comparison.

Fact remains most death's caused by burms here in the US were relatively small specimens, and that the danger presented by ANY large constrictor can not be overlooked, played down or ignored.
To do so, invites the over regulation of taxa by federal/state/county/municipal legislative bodies.

No doubt that the handler is to blame for apathy/complacency in 90% of cases, but does that mean the snake is not potentially dangerous? Obviously if the snake is capable of causing a human fatality, regardless the situation, it is by definition potentially dangerous.

As experienced herpetoculturists we have aresponsibility to make sure the facts about snakes are represented acurately and not played down. Does this mean Burmese are out to get us..hell no, as DC has said, they ARE the ambassadors of the snake world, and look at the HUGE numbers of them in captivity to the LOW fatal occurances, again atestament to their docile nature.

It is simply irresponsible to say they are not potentially dangerous.

By my count that is 4 people in 20 some od years who have been killed by a Burmese python. Let's double that and say 8 in 20 years just for Burmese pythons. Here are some interesting numbers:

"From 1979 through 1994, attacks by dogs resulted in 279 deaths of humans in the United States (1,2)"

"Editorial Note: During 1979-1996, fatal dog attacks occurred in 45 states (Figure_1). In 1986, nonfatal dog bites resulted in an estimated 585,000 injuries that required medical attention or restricted activity; in that year, dog bites ranked 12th among the leading causes of nonfatal injury in the United States (5). In 1994, an estimated 4.7 million persons (1.8% of the U.S. population) sustained a dog bite; of these, approximately 800,000 (0.3%) sought medical care for the bite (6)."

(Comparing lethal scorps to burmese is silly. One, look at how many people actually keep potentially lethal scorpion species compared to those who keep burmese....then add the factor that most scorpion keepers who have charges such as Androctonus, Buthacus, Centruroides(central American species), Leiurus, etc..are generally competant experienced hobbyists, compared to the "newby" burm ownership rate, and we quickly see an apples/oranges comparison.)from RCampbell

I have sold 10 times as many potentially lethal scorpions to customers at our petshop this past year than Burmese pythons. These were all to people over 18. You may not realize how large and how fast the arachnid pet market is growing. These species included Leiurus quinquestriatus, Androctonus bicolor, A. australis, A. amoreouxi, Parabuthus trasvaalicus, and P. liosoma. Not to mention tarantula species such as all Poecilotheria species, Citharischius crawshayi, Stromatopelma calceatum, and many other potentially dangerous baboon spiders. The folks who purchased these were NOT all experienced hobbyist. Their experience was mostly with Emperor scorps, Flat-Rocks, Chilean Rose Tarantulas and millipedes. They were given every reason not to purchase these animals and were not sold them if we deemed them to be "of a questionable nature" i.e. drunk, high, or just a moron.

I have never said that Burms were not potentially dangerous. They are. As are many exotic species and many "domesticated" animals as well. Here is another example:

"During the 1986-96 period there were 14 deaths related to riding and handling horses. Head injuries accounted for 90% of these deaths and fracture of the cervical spine was the cause of the remaining 10% of deaths. The youngest was 8 years and the oldest was 77 years. Of these, 88% fell from the horse, were kicked when on the ground, and 6% were riding double on the horse before falling." This is just from the state of Nevada for that period of time.

"One day, very cavalier, your on the cell phone with your girlfriend and go to toss your burm a rabbit. It smells the rabbit and strikes missing the rabbit hits you. Immediately you're wrapped up on the floor screaming in the phone to call 911.
THIS IS WHY BURMESE ARE SO DANGEROUS." -- Danny Conner

You wonder why the reptile community is seen as a second class citizenship; it is because of the RESULT of actions described by Mr. Conner above. This kind of thing gets in the newspaper and the first thought through peoples' minds is "Shouldn't be keeping dangerous animals like snakes anyway", or "Now I see why the Humane Society wants all reptiles banned as pets", or "the only god snake is a dead snake.". Rarely will you see a reaction like that to a dog bite or someone getting kicked in the head by a horse. The dog will be put down by the local animal control guy and the public that reads about this on the back page of the "Metro" section of the mewspaper will chalk the incident up to an abberation: something that almost never happens. When is the last time you saw a class action against getting dogs banned as pets because of the "violent nature".....NEVER.

It is up to the reptile community to educate and police it's own people on how not to be a stupid snake keeper. Put the blame where it lies, on the owner and not the reptile.

Are Burmese pythons potentially dangerous...yes...mostly to owners who's I.Q. is equal to that of their slithering pet. Derek
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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

Wow. Thanks for the overwhelming compliment/s here. It makes me feel really really good that something I wrote a long time ago was/is remembered by someone, as well as understood. Because that post was written quite a while back. And all too often what I write is not accepted or completely understood. I think I'd really like to meet you one day.

And as far as the 'debate'? with Derek goes,.. I really don't understand why it is somewhat heated and even why it is a debate. You guys are both so correct in so many things. You both state that burms are dangerous, but not aggressive or likely to attack,. but that accidents can and do happen. Different words maybe, but all tantamount to the same meaning.

And what Derek says about the statistics with dogs and fatal dog attacks vs snakes and snake attacks is very relevant, very true, and very right on. Of course, many more people own dogs as a whole and as the "status quo" goes,.. but even if we reconfigured the odds based on the percentages of people that own dogs in relation to the people that own large snakes, the deaths and harm caused by dogs would still GREATLY outweigh the death and harm caused by large snakes. Like my post in the thread about 5 or 6 topics down,... same topic, diff thread,.. I pointed out that it is more dangerous to drive a car to the store to buy a gallon of milk, than it is to own a burmese, or more dangerous to roller skate, and etc etc etc. But no one paid attention to this. But it's true. And similar to what Derek is saying here,.. more people die from choking on ice cream, or falling off skates than from being constricted by their pet burmese. So if society is going to be petty and biased with something so rare as deaths caused by large constrictors,.. then we'd better ban everything else that causes much more harm and death. It's just ridiculous. The result of that,. we're not living in America, the land of the free anymore. Why everything that *could* cause death is banned and we all must live in sealed, plastic boxes and be tube fed. No. This is not the way it is going to be. I say have your burmese, your fireworks, your whatever,. and just be as safe and responsible as possible.

The funniest thing about the statistics on death and particularly the reference to dog related deaths vs python related deaths is that there is an animal on this planet that is 100 times more deadly than any domestic dog,.. that causes many hundreds of more human fatalities per year than dogs ever could. And that animal, the worst killer of them all,. is US. Man. We kill more of ourselves than any other animal.

And if we get into statistics about burmese ownership and the odds of being killed by our snake, and even take it a step further and place it into a catagory of, "women that own burmese",... the chances that any female burm owner would be killed by her pet burm is still nearly incalculably low. But do you know what most women are most likely to be killed by? (I read this sad fact recently). Not by any pet or intruder, but by their lover, spouse, or boyfriend. Very sad, but very true.

So why does anyone focus on 4 deaths in 20 years by burmese? I don't know. Because it is more sensational I guess. Kind of like alligators. On average there is maybe 5 or so deaths every 50 years, yet when it happens the world goes nuts and deems the gator as a "vicious killer!". Most people deem them as evil killer animals anyways even though 999 out of a 1000 gators would much rather avoid any possible contact with any human.

No,. there's really only one evil animal on this planet and it doesn't slither on it's belly or walk on 4 legs. It wears designer jeans and drives poluting cars and kills just about everything it sees in a total abandon for anything but itself (as a whole). The only evil animal is "Man".

>>Brian
>>I was actually hoping you would read these post because I knew you would understand. I am a little surprised that other people are having such a hard time. Not everyone needs a giant snake bottom line.
>>A while back I read a post of yours that I really liked so much in fact I wrote it down(don't worry I won't claim it as mine.) You were talking about the differences in rocks burms and retics. It was short, concise andPERFECT. I even read it to my wife who totally did'nt care or appreciate it. I read that post and thought my god here is someone who has not only had the snakes but understands them. I would add to that short list anacondas are unpredictable. Of course this is a generalization like your list but generalizations work and I think they facilitate communication. Always realizing there are exceptions to every rule.
>>Now back to Derek.
>>D.C.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores. Heck, much less if some live in the same states as others" Mia Myselfani

"All deeds be they good or bad shall be repaid one hundred fold." Yers Troolie

I could'nt stand it.
The whole reason I posted to this thread was because someone inquired about the dangers of owning a burmese python. Period.
Not comparing the ownership of a burmese to owning a dog or eating icecream or driving in a car. Just the dangers of owning a burm. If this was the pit bull forum I assume veterean pit owners would give the pros and cons of owning a pit.
But it's not it is the burm forum. Not venemous, not arachnid, not crocodilian.
All I wanted them to know is they grow fast and are capable of killing people.
I was a paramedic for sometime and I certainly am aware of the myriad ways man can hurt himself and others.
All I wanted to convey is that just because you owned a ball python or a cornsnake for a few years does'nt necessarily mean you are ready for a burm.
I don't want to get in a pissing contest over who has done what or who has been bit more times. All I want is for less experienced keepers to be careful, experienced keepers to stay on their toes(including me).
I did'nt know this was a hotline to the mass media I was just trying to convey some knowledge acquired over years of experience.
Oddly enough on the croc forum I am one of the few experienced keepers who does'nt have a problem with rookies getting crocodilians. They grow relatively slow (most species) and it would take tears before they obtain a size where they could truly be considered life threatening.
But this isn't the croc forum...
I would like to meet you sometime Brian.
D.C.