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Hi. I've had a female three-toed box turtle for quite some time now. I've just added a male eastern box turtle to the picture. Immediately the male eastern box mounted on the female three-toed box. I was curious, is it possible for them to reproduce? They are both sexually mature. The female seems uninterested in the male and attempts to escape in every contact. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading.

Hi,

I've had a few boxes in my time and unfortunately my male three toed is extermely aggressive when it comes to turtles of the opposite sex (or the same sex, for that matter). I lost a female three-toed eastern mix to his agressiveness.

I'm absolutely no expert, but I'm not sure if we want to encourage interbreeding in captivity, although I'm under the impression that it does happen in the wild (my "mutt" Chilly was a doll).

Beck (& the herps)

while the purists might not get off on the idea of subspecies (which I question to begin with) should interbreed there is pretty good documention that the 3toed natuarally inerbreeds with the eastern boxies. The choice is up to you.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

A cross between two different species, like the 3 toed and the Eastern box turtles, is not a subspecies, it is called a cross breed or sometimes referred to as a hybrid. A subspecies is a species that is very closely related to the nominate race, but has a few tiny differences. Also, it is VERY, VERY unusual for two differnt species of ANY type of animal be it bird, reptile fish or whatever, to interbreed in the wild. It is almost always a result of humans putting them together in unnatural conditions, and is almost always a bad idea every way you look at it.

I would like to see some documentation that these two different species of box turtle interbreed in the wild.

The Eastern Box turtle, Terrapene carolina carolina and the Three-toed, Terrapene carolina triunguis are actually subspecies under the same species name. They can and do interbred in the wild per Kenneth Dood in his book North American Box Turtle, A Natural History, page 178. This is a natural occurance in some areas of the US. But whether we should actually try to create these intergrade turtles ourselves is something I don't recommend. Why? Because the individual subspecies type is so beautiful and unique in themselves, why mess with it? I see no value of saying, "Hey this is a intergrade turtle between an Eastern and Three-toed." I rather say, "I have a Three-toed box turtle". Or, "This is an Eastern box turtle". Plus if breeder's turtles were ever needed to repatriate areas that have lost all their wild box turtles, then we would want true genotypes for the job, not intergrades.
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Tess
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Unless you got an adoption out or Illinois... then what?
I believe that is a zone where intergrades are said to exist. Then, what if you got one from that area and didn't know it?
Major grey area.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

personally I wouldn't want to create mutts.. or mules.. what do you plan on doing with the offsping if you get any.. most people who are educated dont by them.. and pet stores can't sell them legally....

a 1.1 male/female ratio could stress the one female and cause her death.

I'm inclined to agree: From what I've understood, the hatchling buying public is not very interested in 'mutts', which is something to consider when you're thinking about what you'll be doing with any offspring.
The males can be pretty relentless in their pursuit of females, so you have another compelling reason to separate them.
If they were mine I'd keep them separated; even though it can be done, that doesn't mean it should be done.
Good luck with them.
Stephanie

I agree. Look the fact that it occurs in nature doesn't automatically make it "ok." For example, mutations of all kind occur in nature such as albinism. Breeders everywhere are now selling albino red ears and I'll predict sometime in the future many more albino's will start popping up. Is this good? I doubt it. Going out of your way to create a genetically inferior animal and then jacking up the price is not what captive breeding is all about. Your situation is different of course, but I really wouldn't advise doing this.

I think a 1.1 group could work but you would have to house them in a huge area w/ ample cover and then monitor them very closely. A 1.2 group would be much better. In the wild the females can escape the males, if they cannot, they will use too much energy that should be invested in reproduction. As stated, the consequences can be devastating.

Jesse

I find it extremely interesting that the original person who posted the question was asking if it was possible and got a huge response as to the ethics of the action which I can't seem to find a reference to in the original question.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

The fact is there are ethics involved. What if someone posted that they wanted to know if it was possible to release all their pet turtles into the local lake. Is it possible? Sure. Is it right to do? Absolutely not. Could it destroy the wild populations? It possibly could. In fact this is part of the reason the desert tortoise is endangered. Would it introduce new and potentially inferior genetics to the specific population? Yep. So when a question of that nature is asked, all aspects can and should be addressed. This is a forum where people come here to educate themselves. If everyone responded by simply answering questions and not adding any input or other info we wouldn't learn nearly as much as we do.

Jesse

Key word... 'Educate'... not 'judge'.
If the added information was place in the form of information I would think it would carry a great deal more weight and go farther than if it was placed in the form that it was presented.
Personally, I wouldn't mix the two but that's me and I'm not going to get pissed at the guy for doing what he/she wants to do with their animals nor am I going to tell them what to do with their animals. If it bothered me that much I'd give them all the information so that they might make a good decision but who's to say what is right or wrong in that situation. I believe we're talking about this persons pets. I would think that was their business.
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Ed
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Hmm... sounds to me like you are the one judging what I said. Not once during my response was I "judging" her. I was simply offering my opinion and advice. I was educating her in fact. Instead of trying to be the morality forum cop I think you should worry about more important things. This isn't the first, and I'm fairly certain it won't be the last time I have disagreed w/ something you said. Try to be a little less defensive next time.

Jesse

I didn't mean to come across that way. I apologize. I do see where you're coming from and I respect your opinion. I think there just may have been a misunderstanding. For that I'm very sorry. Take care.

Jesse

No offense taken. I, like you, have an opinion. I like to think it adds balance to a discussion. As long as more than one point of view is expressed I think it allows a person to make a decent decision on their own... I know it does in my case.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I never stated that i wish for offspring. I was just curious if it is possible along with additional info, so i could adjust the setup of my terrium accordly. Thanks for all the help, i will be sure to make adjustments in the setup.

Ed

.
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Ed
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Beware asking for 'any other info'...
Stephanie

Hmm...where in the original post was there ever a mention of selling hatchlings, creating a market for genetic inferior species, etc?

All I read was "was it possible for them to interbreed?"

Odd.

Johnny

I suspect many responded to the "Any info would be greatly appreciated" remark at the end of the original post: it was a pretty open ended request and got a variety of responses, including answers to the interbreeding question (albeit indirectly in some cases).
Nothing wrong with that.
Regards,
Stephanie

I think you misunderstood. What I said was that the two subspecies in question do interbreed in the wild. I think it was eastern boxies and three toeds.
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Ed
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Again, like the posts above, I thought both Eastern and 3-toed are the same species of turtle, just differnet subspecies. Both are T. carolina right? Or is Tortoisehead claiming they are same genus, but differnet species....let's say T. carolina vs. T. truinguis (just made that name up)?

I thought EJ was saying the subspecies could interbreed, NOT the SPECIES. Like for instance, T. carolina carolina CAN and DOES interbreed with T. carolina truinguis in the wild. But it would be less likely for T. carolina x T. ornata to do so?

Just clarifying.

Johnny