Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I do enjoy this forum.I just have some opinions.I see the venomoid/venomous battles raged here weekly.I also hear people harp about being properly trained and yet not a one of you can can tell us how,where,when anyone can gain the experience to actually handle hots.TT while being a blessing to the venomous community can only offer online help sheets.????Maybe,just maybe, if some of you would go out of your way and help newbies learn there would'nt be a market for butchered snakes period.This is just something i had to get off my chest and it is only my opinion on the subject...Paul.

I do train quite a few people, although I am focusing my efforts primarily on veterinarians and police/fire/animal control officers for what I think is the greatest overall benefit.

Online articles are the best I can offer people who don't live anywhere near me. I can't exactly drop my whole life and drive or fly halfway across the country to teach individuals. Did you expect that I should?

Even if an individual does live near me, there are still concerns. There are some really untrustworthy people on the fringes of the herp community, people who steal things or are involved with drug use, and I don't want any of them in my house. I need to know and trust someone before I am willing to let them anywhere near my collection. In particular I need to know that they won't do anything stupid; I take a significant risk of legal liability in allowing anyone near my venomous snakes. I absolutely cannot risk allowing anyone who is under the influence of alcohol or drugs in my facility.

There have been a few people who have asked me to train them who came off as just plain rude, immature or only interested in taking up my time and not offering anything in return. I'm not just talking about cage cleaning help either. What I want most is for somebody I'm training to pay it forward. I want to see some real effort and dedication towards rescuing and rehabilitating snakes, or towards conservation, or some other goal that genuinely helps the animals. Those are the people I'm always willing to train.

Veterinarians and public safety officers (Fish and Wildlife, animal control, sheriff, police, etc) are at the top of my list because they can potentially help a lot of snakes if they can learn to handle them safely. Wildlife rehabilitators and nuisance wildlife removers qualify also. I'll go to some lengths to make sure that these folks get training. People who just want a cool pet are at the bottom of my list, and they're totally off my list if they aren't willing to work and give back something in return.

Training people is definitely a two-way street. The person wanting training has to be willing to work hard and to present themselves professionally just as they would for a job interview. It's not something you can whine for, demand, or expect that people will give you for nothing. You are asking the person who will be training you to give you hours of their time and to assume a huge liability risk by letting you into their facility. You should be prepared to make sure that you are offering something of value to your trainer as well as taking it.

What about classes?Paid classes.Just like college,with the exception of expulsion if the instructer feels someone is a hazard to themselves and others.I see the logic of your reasoning and of your why not list,but until someone takes a chance/gamble i feel that there will always be a market for garage/hacked snakes...Paul.

I worked with hundreds of nonvenomous species of every kind (in the field and in captivity) for over 17 years before I felt like I was ready to take on the responsability of keeping venomous reptiles. This is how I recieved my training. I talked with tons of keepers, planned and sought out advice in books and on the internet. I learned how to deal with nasty snakes in general. That is the key here.

Now I am getting ready to go to grad school in Florida and I need to document 1000 hours of experience to obtain the Fl venomous permit before I do. It is MY responsability to seek out this documentation by working with other keepers and seekng internships with institutions. It is a PRIVILAGE for me to be able to work and gain this documentation NOT a right. If you love these animals enough to keep them in your home then it is your responsability to do some leg work, make some phone calls and find someone to work with.

Are venomous keepers blockheads also?I dont want a hot.I could give a rat's ass about keeping one.If you want the butcher to stop help has to be easily obtainable.If not venomoids are clearly the wave of the future.Your all dooming your own hobby.And all im getting are lame ass excuses...Good Luck..Paul.

So if some inbred, drug-addicted, untrustworthy, low-IQ, alcohol soaked 19 year old with a long police record for burglary rudely demands that I train him or else he will buy a venomoid, what do you think I should do?

If I do attempt to train him, I am not only putting myself and my collection at risk, I am putting him at risk because he is clearly not competent and will be bitten.

If I don't train him, he will go out and buy a venomoid.

There simply is no good solution here. The best one I can think of would be to make it illegal for him to buy a venomoid. Florida laws do not recognize a venomoid snake as anything but a venomous species, so the unlicensed and inexperienced teenager in the above example would not legally be able to buy or keep one. This may vary in other states.

Ive seen what you describe already here.Ive also seen the smartest people in Kingsnake visit here also.The knowledge needs passed on,no matter what the IQ...Paul

We are talking about the keeping of potentially LETHAL animals. This is not something for every Tom, Dick and Harry. Before venues like kingsnake.com (and others)this sort of thing was restricted to people who had a lifelong interest in these animals. One couldn't simply click on a classified link and purchase a venomous snake or a venomoid. Out of site out of mind. Now with the easy accessibility of said venues every twerp with a cornsnake, bearded dragon or ball python thinks he needs to have a hot snake or a "bad @ss venomoid". Anyone with half a brain can list a dozen serious reasons of why this is a bad thing for these animals, public perception and the community of serious and passionate herpetoculturists. I realise that it may be hard for these kids to wrap their minds around the concepts of WHY NOT when they have been raised in a non-reality society that fills them full of fast food, Brittany Spears videos and Playstation.

"So if some inbred, drug-addicted, untrustworthy, low-IQ, alcohol soaked 19 year old with a long police record for burglary rudely demands that I train him or else he will buy a venomoid, what do you think I should do?

If I do attempt to train him, I am not only putting myself and my collection at risk, I am putting him at risk because he is clearly not competent and will be bitten.

If I don't train him, he will go out and buy a venomoid.

There simply is no good solution here. The best one I can think of would be to make it illegal for him to buy a venomoid. Florida laws do not recognize a venomoid snake as anything but a venomous species, so the unlicensed and inexperienced teenager in the above example would not legally be able to buy or keep one. This may vary in other states."

MsTT, reread your description of this hypothetical snake enthusiast and then tell me, do you really think he gives a rat's hind end if owning a venomoid is illegal.

Lots of people keeps snakes (venomous or nonvenomous) illegally. Making drugs illegal hasn't slowed down their popularity. Making it illegal to drink and drive hasn't stopped the death toll on the highways. The fact is taht like every other thing that gets done in this world, there will be people who care enough to learn to things the right way and there will be people who take the time to learn to do it right.
Just my opinion,
Karl

But, if venomoid surgery was made illegal then these abused animals would not be able to be sold and displayed at shows and venues such as kingsnake.com and the problem would be significantly decreased. Sure there would be a few unscrupulous people still doing these procedures, but they would not be able to be mass marketed like they are now.

That same argument is being/has been/and will continue to be used for outlawing the keeping of snakes (venomous and non) at all.
Making something illegal does not stop people from doing it. It just raises your taxes to pay for the overburdened judicial and law enforcement systems as they pick up the extra responsibility for dealing with whatever new illegality comes up.
I am not pro venomoids.
I am anti making more laws since the laws already in effect are too many and too cumbersome to properly enforce.
I really liked the venomous show at Daytona last year, especially so since they didn't allow venomoids.
Just my opinion,
Karl

I am against restrictive/prohibitive laws against reptiles too. I think life has already been sterilized too much by the powers that be. I agree to a point, but IMO this is an animal abuse issue first and foremost. Secondly, it is an issue of negative public perception and the degradation of serious herpetoculture. If popular venues would refuse to advertise venomoids the average joe would have no idea where to get them. Thus if they were made illegal these venues would have no choice but to stop.

unless performed by a qualified vet. So I would bet that EVERY single venomoid for sale in the classifieds was illegally done. Lets face it, what qualified vet, with ANY morals or concern for a snake, is going to perform that surgery because someone wants to cuddle with their cobra? The sad truth is, even with people like Mrs. TT and the person who trained me how to safely handle, there is STILL going to be people wanting to buy venomoids. And, there is STILL going to be scum, who can't properly spell the snakes they are selling, hacking up snakes ILLEGALLY.
We can only hope that the fad goes away. That, or people start realizing their money should go towards their childrens college fund, instead of into the pockets of crooks and cheats. But who am I to tell people what to do with their money?

Some time ago, when I had a very sick (and free) D. viridis and took it to my vet, he asked me if I had ever thought about having any of my very dangerous snakes devenomized. Of course I told him no and all that, but he said that he thought there were a couple of vets somewhere here in Arkansas that occasionally performed the surgery. In all honesty, he would probably be willing to do it as well. I don't think it really has so much to do with a vet's morals and character, they are simply there to both help animals and to treat animals in accordance to people's wishes. That's why vets spay, neuter, declaw, crop ears, bob tails, etc. Those things are all cosmetic or otherwise unnecessary procedures, but the vast majority of vets are willing to do them. Obviously I am in no way supporting the venomoid fad, just saying that those of you who are sure that no vet in his right mind would do the procedure may be surprised. I may call my vet and see if I can get the names and numbers of the guys he was thinking of, and I might try to call them to see if they actually do get requests to do the surgery.

As far as morality goes the only difference between a vet and anyone else is a piece of paper. There are credible and ethical vets and then their are those that will perform these hack surgeries for the amusement of inexperienced wannabee snake keepers. The majority of veterinarians will NOT do these surgeries and most of the ones that will don't have a very high level of experience with it. Remember, the vets that know how to PROPERLY practice reptile medicine are still few and far between. Venomoid surgery is an obscure practice, so tell me how many of these "expert","licensed" venomoid surgeons there are out there. The risk level that is involved for the snake is much higher than for a dog with cropped ears or tail. We are talking about removing an ORGAN from INSIDE the snakes HEAD, not clipping the tip of an ear or tail.

practicing veterinary medicine without a license IS illegal. This fact is overlooked when the animal in question is a reptile, especially when it is a snake.

I always try to point out to people that yes, it is indeed illegal to do operations on animals without the appropriate licenses, not to mention almost certain inhumane. However, those that are interested in and/or supporting of the venomoid fad seem to pass that one up. Go figure...lol.

As far as your example of venomoiding being the removal of a gland, that is obviously true. However, there are veterinary procedures that vets do VERY commonly in which glands are removed. The most common of the cases would be to "descent" pet ferrets or even skunks. Granted, these glands are not considered as physiologically vital as those of a venomous snake, but they are glands nonetheless.

Again, I'll reiterate, my argument here is not in any form or fashion in support of venomoids or the procedures. I'm just saying that there are probably many vets out there whom are perfectly capable and willing to remove a snake's venom glands, just as they would remove a ferret's scent glands.
-Chance

is generally accepted.....Which is basically hampering their defense AND offense. Surgery removing a snakes venom glands, which is more intrusive, may not in actuality be much farther than the declawing of felines by moral standards as one might think. That being the case, whos to say that if done PROPERLY, one is worse than the other?

np

The problem is that many of these surgeries end in the snakes death before one makes it through. Many more of these animals die days, weeks or months later do to a combination of complications from this procedure, inadequate sterilization (or none)and failure to use antibiotics. This is in sharp contrast to declawing a cat which is less invasive and performed by lcensed vets. I think both of these procedures are the pits though.

They are not done PROPERLY. And as far as I have seen there is no effort being made to stop these illegal surgeries or regulate this activity period. The animals in question are venomous snakes and the majority of the public and those in charge of regulating this sort of thing don't give a crap.

and by properly i mean sterile conditions and instruments. Also maybe some form of painkiller would be nice. It is an invasive procedure, but MUCH more invasive procedures are done on other living beings including humans. My point is, maybe instead of trying to outlaw or ban it, we could try to have licensed vets LEARN how to do it in a sterile environment? Using the proper anesthetic. I dont see how this could be considered any less humane than any other operation performed on any other being. This of course is under the assumption that with these precautions, the operation would have a much higher success rate and survival rate. But with any surgery there is no guarantee. Just some food for thought, again i am definitely against snake hackers. But seeing as I dont see an end in sight, maybe a different approach is needed?

And even then, theres no way to completely be rid of it. All that will happen is demand will go up, and the butcherer's will be paid even MORE most likely (supply & demand). Unfortunately I believe there will always be a market for venomoids. Instead of being properly trained, I'm certain that people will opt for the "safer"/easier alternative. For those that WANT proper training it wont be easy unless near someone who is willing to be a mentor. For me, after many years of non venomous snake keeping and countless types or snakes, I decided to get my feet wet with a pair of copperheads. I felt my husbandry and saftey skills were high enough for me to make the jump. I was correct, I had no accidents or close calls. I've now gone from copperheads to an eyelash viper. Again, my husbandry and skills in my oppinion are high enough for one of these. I did a lot of research and spent countless hours online getting info. I feel that without many years of non venomous handling, that even WITH a formal venomous class you still wouldnt have the experience needed to safely maintain a venomous snake.

I agree with Mc here all the way. Although I do not keep hots and never will, I know myself and don't trust myself that much. If I began to ponder the idea I would go out get all the equipment that is needed, and get some nasty non venomous species. MsTT always lists off snakes that are good to learn with. I would buy these species and learn how to safely handle them with the standard equipment. I would also do a lot of reading on the handling of venomous snakes. Once I thought I wouldn't be biten I would then look for someone to work under for a period of time to refine my skills. This way I have experience in handling difficult snakes without being bite, and I have also shown that I have a desire to do things properly and the dedication it takes to own hots. Even if every venoumous keeper in the country offered up all their time to train people that want to keep venomous snakes there would still be a huge demand for venomoids. This is because no one wants to work hard to gain the skills they need. They can teach themselves how to handle nasty snakes, with non venomous species, and also learn a lot by reading about handling the more dangerous venomous species. However it is just too easy to go out and buy a venomoid and you get the instant satisfaction that is desired.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I have done paid presentations, but most of the facilities where they have asked me to do this sort of thing have not permitted me to actually bring any venomous snakes. So I rely on PowerPoint and nonvenomous species, which really isn't the most effective way to teach.

The main issue with doing a for-profit class is the liability and insurance. I would have to charge a hefty amount to cover the insurance alone, and there would have to be a fair number of people willing to share the cost of the insurance and the facility.

Is there really enough interest in Central Florida to do a full-day venomous handling course and wet lab that would cover basic husbandry, handling techniques and veterinary care? I would expect the cost per person to run in the $100 to $150 range, and a fair chunk of that would go towards insurance coverage.

MSTT is 100% correct on this and goes out of her way to help people.
But its not the duty of a licensed hot herper to train every tom dick and harry that wants to get the hours.
I have only had a Few people I would trust to even enter my snake room.
also Venomoids do not train anyone for anything and though not illegal themselves the garage voiders might be breaking laws doing what it is they do in the quest to make a quick buck at the expense of a intact reptile.
most are lowlifes that hide in dark corners having their minions sell the snakes so they will not be out in the light.
stay clear of venomids and Voiders is my advice.

bud

Quite a few of them DO help newbies. It's up to you to first locate one near enough for you to visit, then present yourself as trustworthy (BIG liability risk, as TT said) and passionate enough about hot snakes for a skilled handler to be willing to "show you the ropes". It's clearly up to the novice handler to take care of his/her situation, not the mentor's.
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth