Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I just purchased a "golden greek", but I have a few questions on identification and classification..... To start off he's reall DARKish... like a yellow-ie mossy greeny sort of a color with alot of blackish sort of spots on him? I made a huge mistake and got him from Petco, he had pnumonia and hookworm but he's getting medicated right now and doing a WHOLE lot better.. though he could be heavier... I also would like to know how can you estimate the age of a tortie, can they smell with their nose, is the line along his spine where he has slightly raised scutes normal, on his underneath his shell sort of wiggles SLIGHTLY like a very UN loose tooth, is that normal ,he has a scratch in his shell very minor but I don't want to let it turn into a problem.... I just want to do EVERYTHING right for him.. he has a heat light that is about 95 degrees right underneath it and the cooler side of his vivarium is 75ish... with a UVB UVA light I feed him everything green and leafy IE: breakfast for today was mixed baby leaf chopped romain heart, parsley, wheatgrass, and a TINY peice of kiwi fruit all lightly dusted with calcium and jurassi.vite suppliment, with a side of water with reptile conditioner added, and I think he might have munched a rabbit pellet which he lives on until spring, when he can go out side. Anything anyone can tell me would be really helpful. He's next vet app. is next week.. he's on baytril for his punmonia and panucur oral soltuion for his hook worm. Thanks alot
----- Leo and Destiny
Oh if anyone wants to see a picture of him let me know.. I can't figure out how to post his pic!

A picture would be a lot better but you should know the 'golden greeks' are highly variable in color. The can be from no pattern at all to quite dark.
The goldens do like it warm but it sounds like you have a good range.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

here are a few pictures... thanks.

members.cox.net/ynitsed

Be warned, it's a large file!

NOTE: Trim files down to maybe 100-150k, and then place the url of the image's location in the url box, not the url of the html code that displays the image.

oops.. okay.. here
Link

GRRRRR! okay.. here
Link

One other thing. I'd suggest loosing the Kiwi. If you need something for the powder to stick to I'd recommend some kind of berry like strawberry or blackberry.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

If you are dealing with hookworm, you might want to put him on newspaper. Hookworm is hard to get rid of, and you need to keep things very, very clean. I finally got my tortoise clear after 3 separate treatments, and I had to change out the newspaper every day, and disinfect things every 2 or 3 days. You can see where that would be a pain with pellets!
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Okay.. I'll switch him out to paper towels the recyling man just took all my news papers! heheheh He'll get news paper tomorrow.. to be honest I was wondering about that.. All of his little "presents" I was picking up as he deposited them.... But they were sinking into the pellets..... I really feel bad for Leo.. But I know that he's safe now... I'll fix him up right! Thanks for the advice.... Let me know anything else helpful please.. I bought and read the book turtles and tortoises for dummies.. but it really didn't seem to help out that much.... anyother reading you can suggest? thanks

Leo and Destiny

Sounds like you are doing well by him. He looks just like my trio. They realy are great. Make sure to keep him warm and dry. You said he will go out side in the spring. Where do you live? Have you made an incloser yet?
Once he is over his cold, give him a bath every other day. You will find that will be where he gives you his deposits.
Good luck!!!

We live in Bellevue, Nebraska. Right now we are living under a foot and a half of snow.. SO I haven't started building his outside house yet... but let me clarify when I say spring... I mean I mean early JUNE! Hehehehe Here it doesn't get warm enough for tortoises until then... that's only on really good days too.. is it okay to take him out with me < I usually sit out side for 5 or 6 hours a day, during the warmes weather.. and then bring him back in with me at night? The temps get low here... but In the Summer like August and July and MOST of September he'll be out side day and night... My husband and I have picked out a level part of ground next to our porch and I think we've decided on cinderblocks.... does that sound right? Thanks angain everyone and Your little guys are so CUTE, is the bigger one a female? what are their names?

Leo and Destiny

There are a number of excellent articles on Golden Greeks at the World Chelonian Trust site. Darrell Senneke of the Trust and Mike Lowe and David Lee of the Tortoise Reserve have done quite a bit of work with GG's. Latest issue of the newsletter (June 2003) has some very good information from Mike and David on their husbandry AND breeding success with GG's.

I have had very good success with two sub species of GG's (Graeca Terrestris and Graeca Soussensis). Once you get the husbandry set they are as hardy and interactive as Russians. I won't go into our set-up, diet, etc. as the articles on the WCT site spell it all out in detail.

www.chelonia.org

Good luck, once "clean" you'll have a great tort.

Ernie in Minneapolis...

Oh Thank you! I'll look at that stuff rhight now.. I've read the care sheet on that website and a little background info on there being different subspecies and such.. but I'll look around at that stite some more.. they have some really good pictures too! I know Leo is going to be a little sweetie... I can tell already.. he loves me to death... as soon as I put my hand in his vivarum with food or no he starts over towards me and he never hides in his shell excpet for at night when he's sleeping... and he always watches what I'm doing.. that's why I names him Leo.. he a little lover!

Destiny and Leo

The big one is Homer (male) and the other two are Marge and Mrs Flanders. I got the name from Homer and the Illiadd (not sure on spelling). However I couldn't find a name a liked for the females and my oldest daughter (3.5 yrs old) asked me one day how Homers wife Marge is doing. So that stuck with her. The second female came later, and Mrs Flanders just seem to fit.

I take mine out with me for short sun shine visits. The humidity here in IL is realy high. So I don't think they will spend alot of time outside.

Are you planing on breeding your cuties? Are Homer and Marge and Ms. Flanders wild-caught or captive bred? They are just so cute. .. are they about the size of half of a softball? Little kids REALLY like Leo, but I have him on a no touch or pet system until he's clean of all his parasites and stuff...

Leo and Destiny

Do they look CB to you? No, they are 100% wildcought specimens, coming from syria just behind the antiatlas. Illegal captured and exported with pseudolegal Cites permits to the states..... Thats the sad story. Money rules this world.

It is nice to know that there is someone who knows everything about everything. She asked a good question and you jumped all over her. That was totally uncalled for. She is new to the forums and to tortoises keeping. Lets try to use some good manners next time.
Now for the polite answer. No they are not cb. They are imported. Yes I do hope to get them to breed! They are about soft ball size. So breeding most likely will not happen for a few years or so.
Now to answer your remark "Money rules the world". You are 100% correct. It always has and always will. The sooner you imbrase this, the farther you will go in life. Just because money rules the world doesn't mean it has to rule you!! But remmeber that it does rule others!!!!!!!!!!!!!

syrian terrestirs mature at around 12cm/males and 14cm/females.
Its just sad that there are more and more "smuggeled out of syria" to meet the US demand, if less people would buy them, less would have to be imported, WC specimens in the 21th century is very sad and it is very sad that US people don't learn anything from the european errors in the 1960s.......

I don't know about Syria but I had the oportunity to spend a couple of weeks in Turkey a few years back. I found about 10 T. greaca remains while hiking. The tortoises would be killed on sight with the idea that they were in direct competition with the local goats. If you really think that the exportation of these creatures is doing more harm, I think you are mistaken. We now have a good number in the states to provide a founding stock. Most people that I know that have these are doing their all to learn their habits and breed them. They are much more than pets and I really don't think the pet trade is the greatest danger but the explosion of the human population.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi Ej

Well, thats what most people are thinking, but still they will do better in nature. 1. captive breeding does not help the wild populations, as they will be mixed up on all odds an ends, they will have infections etc. which would harm the remaining wild, if released, so this point is a perfect dream and thats what people that buy WC specimens say to justify themselves, but it is nonesens. In europe it strangly works without WC specimens since years, so why doesn't that work in the states? Because most a bought by beginners, cause they are "so cute" and "so cheap", WC is alway cheaper than CB, we all know that. Do you know what pressure this gives on the remaining populations? Its the same thing that cool Cites did with the planicaudas 2 years ago to USA, because of this thing planicauda is on Cites 1 know and it really helps that 80% of the population went to usa to satisfy the demand and 80% of them are dead by now, stop dreaming. And if they are CB in USA, do you think they will ever see their country of origin again? 1. Gene pool will be very mixed, hybrids etc will occur. 2. If they should go extinct in their habitat, do you think there will be space in the future to free them there? 3. It would be much more usefull to leave them where they are, the big imports to the usa esp. from the terrestris fomr syria, where they are scarce by nature because of the extreme climate and the desertification and the collectors are only taking the mature ones, esp. adult Females, and in the case of the goldens, for marketing reasons they only take the small populations on the other side of the antiatlas, I don't want to know how many thousand specimens went to the states, but they would have done better in their habitat (there is no pressure like in some areas of turkey, but the area you were must have been extreme, normaly turkish people respect tortoise or at least don't harm them directly)...... So don't justify buying illegal captured greeks (and hermanns, for instance all US "europe CB" adult hermanns are illegal WC, or do you think one idiot over there would sell adult CB females to the states for these prices? LOL, as well as most european produced CB from 5-10 years ago are males (because of the porblems with incubation temp. that were solved only some years ago) You shouldn't believe everything that is printed on these illegal Cites papers from syria, slovenia etc), with the point that you are helping the population, YOU DON'T, you just help to destroy once viable and vital populations!!!

You've got 2 choices... control or cooperation. Time and again I've said anger will be met with anger and it is a downward spiral.
Luckily there are groups on the rise that understand that the capital generated from the captive breeding of these animals can actually benefit the populations in the wild. As far as them never seeing the wild... this thinking is also changing. In the case of the golden greeks I'll bet it would be very easy to not mix up the gene pool. For species like the Pyxis and the Egyptian it is easy to know the populations because of the limited range.
I was told that there were a bunch of Egyptians confiscated a few years back. They were given to the American College in Cairo, Egypt. They produced over 300 eggs in the first year. They did not have proper incubators so many of the eggs went bad. Where do you see a problem with selling off half the babies to pay for good equipment to properly take care of these animals? That's just one example. One day everyone will realize that the root of the problem is overpopulation in a shrinking world. By protecting these populations with no place to put them you are dooming them to extinction. (you don't have to tell me this is a self serving rationalization because I've been told before) As I said, there are people who realize this and are working towards goals that address this issue. That is the program I think is going to work because it is based on cooperation and NOT control.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care