Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It is being requested that people pledge to favor the herp community. If you look at the ball python advertisors on the top of this page and you will notice many aren't pledging.
Another point is that is was mentioned that you can't insure reptiles. Certainly if you are a tax paying record keeping business you can insure the assets of your business.As a pet store would.
When we spend more money on our snakes than we do our auto's common sense would say to figure a way to protect your investment.
A home security system would cost less than a pied and probably keep one( a pied)in the premise.
Another point, probably someone they know, who else would just steal a very valuable collection.
About the herp community coming together. A herper stole the animals. If you look at the shady dealings on the classifieds every day you see the broadest spectrum of the herp community.It isn't very pretty. So is what we want to do is have this on a national broadcast that animals we aren't calling a bussiness investment because they are uninsured were stolen by another herper looking to make a quick buck and a small percentage of people have donated money to apprehend the evil doer.It would seem to be just another black eye for the hobby.
The good news is that nobody watches FOX News with any value in reliability anyway, so that would only be a tabloid coverage of a controversial topic.Joe public might be concerned that these dangerous snakes could be loose in their community( you know how they are)
Anyway, my heart goes out to any family that is the victim to a crime.And it can be any of us. So I recommend we get some security systems and become legit with some small business insurance.
Also, any ideas why the large and medium breeders haven't pledged anything? Do they know something that the average keeper doesn't know? Probably so. I am interested in what that might be. Peace/out

I agree. Except for the conspiracy theory.

If the snakes aren't recovered, which would be little suprise here in Cali, maybe some of the breeders offering rewards for information can offer some babies. A thought I just had.

You also have to realize that allot of these 'large' breeders do not frequent these sites and more importantly these forums like they used to. Not to start a debate, but these forums are nothing more than a chat room you will find on any other site like Yahoo, AOL, etc.
My point is, maybe not everyone knows of the situation as of yet. It only happened 2 days ago.
-----
Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

Brian, they are ALL aware of the theft and the reward. Dan and Collette contacted hundreds of people and yesterday I called over a hundred. Many of theses "Big Breeders" said they had already been contacted. So not only are they aware of it, they have also been reminded of it. My thought is that if you own a business (lets say a car lot) and your competitors cars get stolen, what are you going to do. Are you going to help your competitor? See thats the problem with alot of the names you dont see on the list. They are looking at this from a competitive view, and not a compassionate view. From listening to these guys, some of them dont see it as protecting themselves from future breakins. And thats precicely what this is all about. Coming together as a community and saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! What we have done in the last 2 days is amazing. We have instantly assembled a Neighborhood Watch within the herp community, and we are footing the bill!!! The funny thing is that those big breeders are going to benefit from our efforts in one way or another anyway. And they know that. And honestly, thats o.k. But when thier stuff gets ripped are people going to come to their aid? I really cant answer that. But I do believe that you reap what you sow.

Mike Durbin

Well, you made me aware of some things I did not know. Although I figured SOME calls would be made, and word would spread, I did not know people spent the hours they did in contacting people to make them aware.
You bring up some good points. I will have to admit, I feel guilty as hell.
On Dec. 2, 2003 I lost my job. NOT a sob story and not looking for 'poor me'. My point is, I would go to whatever lengths I could in order to see that these guys/gals were caught.
I guess what I am trying to say is, although I do not have the monitary support at this time (watching every dime I have and putting it where it needs to go rather than where I would like it to go), I just want Jeff especially, and everyone else for that matter, to know that my heart is with them. I will do whatever I can in a physical way to support and aid to the prevention of this in the future and catching the trash that did this.
I have no clue who Jeff is although I have heard the name before. It makes no difference how big or small someone is, this should have never happened and should NEVER happen again to anyone, anywhere.
This country has become full of greedy people who cannot do a thing for themselves. Instead they think it is ok to take from others. This could be snakes, cars, stereos, or simply standing on a street corner begging for money MONTHS on end.
**Let me just follow that by saying there ARE people who maybe are not capable of working. There are also people that might stand with sign in hand until they get on their feet. I am referring to the ones I see here in Phx. on the SAME corner for YEARS now. If people would spend as much energy looking to improve themselves as they do taking from others they would feel allot better about themselves AND realize anyone can do it if they put their heart into it.
Anyway, now that I went off on the tangent, like I said, I just want you all (AND JEFF AND HIS WIFE ESPECIALLY) to know that I am SO VERY SORRY for this and my thoughts and support are with them 110%.
That is all I can offer at this time and hope that you know I give it with all I can!
-----
Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

Brian, you are a tremendous asset to this community and I do not want you to feel for one minute that my post was directed at you. Please read the post below in response to Voice of Truth and you will see why I posted what I did.

Best Regards,

Michael.

I knew it wasn't about me.
You shed some light on the sitation that I did not know (see above post of mine).
I just feel horrible that thsi happened. I, if things were diff. for me, would have been one of the first to jump on board.
No worries at all and thanks for the kind words!
-----
Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

To say that some people are not donating money or adding their name to the list because of competition is totally unfair. You can not force or shame people into donating just because YOU think it is the right thing to do. I did make my pledge and will be sending in my money as soon as the culprits are apprehended but I didn't reach that decision without a LOT of soulsearching. This isn't the first time that I've donated money to one of these 'help a fellow herper' pleas. I've done it before and been made to feel like a fool after certain things came to light. The names [bleep] and [bleep] kept flashing through my head when I first saw the request to pledge money. I only went through with it because my heart says that this feels legitimate, if I had listened to my head I woulnd't have done it. I'm sure there are many other people out there who's gut instinct is telling them to stay away and it's a decision that they have to make themselves. I don't think that 'competition' has ANYTHING to do with it.

VOT

_____

Edited to remove names.

Edited on February 2, 2004 at 23:03:21 by phwyvern.

and you are most certainly entitled to it. But let me explain why I posted what I did.

"To say that some people are not donating money or adding their name to the list because of competition is totally unfair."

How is it unfair? I did not say ALL people who are not donating money are doing so out of competition. I said SOME are. How do I know that? Well, when a breeder laughs at you over the phone and tells you that they "are not going to participate in the reward because they have no desire to help out the competition" then that pretty much validates my point. And when another breeder tells you they "wont be giving because the above mentioned breeder has contacted him and others and asked them not to" then I have every right to say it is out of competition. Because that is what I was told.

"You can not force or shame people into donating just because YOU think it is the right thing to do."

I am not trying to "force" or "shame" anyone into anything. I spent hours on the phone and thanked every single person I spoke to. Even if they didnt give, and almost ALL of them didnt give! Is that wrong of them? Of course not. Only a moron would think it was! SOME people cant give, and I understand that completely. Some people wont give because they are skeptical. Others just dont want to give and that is their business.I was not refering to these people in my earlier post. This isnt some televangelist campaign where people are conned into giving. The folks I refered to in my post know who they are, and they know the reasons they gave me for not giving. And when they said it was out of competition, I feel that is wrong.

"This isn't the first time that I've donated money to one of these 'help a fellow herper' pleas. I've done it before and been made to feel like a fool after certain things came to light. The names Jerry Tubbs and Neil Gubitz kept flashing through my head when I first saw the request to pledge money."

Why would you feel like a fool? If you gave that money out of a sincerity, it doesnt matter what people say about you. The fact that those things "came to light" does not negate the fact that you gave. Do you not believe that you will reap what you sow? You have given generosity and compassion. And when you are in need of it, you will recieve the same. Is that why we give? Of course not, but it is a reality.

"I don't think that 'competition' has ANYTHING to do with it."

You seem real adamant about this. But since you did not speak to these individuals, how is it possible for you to know what their motives are? I would be more than happy to share the contact info of the individuals I was refering to in my post outside of this forum. You are welcome to call them and listen to their opinions regarding the reward. If I were trying to Shame them, I would have just posted it here. But that wasnt my intention at all. My post was my opinion based on the reasons I was given. And like you, I am entitled to it.

Sincerely,

Michael.

I dropped out of this forum a couple of years ago and from BPs in general. Mainly I have health issues regarding the rodents but I don't regret leaving- this theft brought me in here to find out what the updates were, if any. I can imagine who spoke to you about competition while laughing. I saw the list of names and the missing were obvious. I don't know Jeff and I'd never heard of him prior to reading the SnakeKeeper's page but I can imagine the sense of violation during what was already a sad time for him and his family. For me this effort is about community. In the midst of the turmoil, the name-calling, the skepticism, and the laughter, a sense of community and compassion emerges. It doesn't include everyone. But those people who are not laughing and not talking about competition, those people who show support in whatever way they can, they keep us together when things try to tear us apart. They are the ones who are there in all times, not just the times you have cash in hand. These thefts, they happen to all of us when they happen to one of us. Ad it is always the minority who carries the burdens- if any silver lining can be taken from this violation- I think it is good to have these glimpses of who is pulling the load and who is laughing by the wayside. It sounds so much like a moral is formulating at the end of this story....
-----
Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles (Off-line Temporarily)
GiantFeeders

He sure does make a great point.

Well said.

....rare species of reptile lately? Good luck. The fact is insurance companies cater to the majority not the minority. I work in the tattoo and piercing industry, we deal with the same problem. The shops and artists that are seen in every magazine, can afford the insurance. The ones that arent would be better off closing down than trying to. It is a risk we have to accept for being in a business main-stream America doesn't give a crap about. Cars have been modified and restored for decades, both by the big shops and the garage guys. Yet it was only in the last few years that companies finally started offering "Agreed Value" insurance so that the middle guys can afford to insure their vehicles. The "Big Guys" in this industry likely aren't pledging because they aren't aware or literally don't relate because they have insured animals. Its the middle of the road people who can relate, and its those people that have to afford the protection to our industry that insurance companies or law enforcement don't. Just my opinion, dave
-----
2.1 bay of la rosy boas
1.0.8 kenyan sand boas
3.3 ball pythons
1.0 central american boa
4.9 leopard geckos
3.3 assorted cali king
1.0 greyband king

>>....rare species of reptile lately? Good luck. The fact is insurance companies cater to the majority not the minority. I work in the tattoo and piercing industry, we deal with the same problem. The shops and artists that are seen in every magazine, can afford the insurance. The ones that arent would be better off closing down than trying to. It is a risk we have to accept for being in a business main-stream America doesn't give a crap about. Cars have been modified and restored for decades, both by the big shops and the garage guys. Yet it was only in the last few years that companies finally started offering "Agreed Value" insurance so that the middle guys can afford to insure their vehicles. The "Big Guys" in this industry likely aren't pledging because they aren't aware or literally don't relate because they have insured animals. Its the middle of the road people who can relate, and its those people that have to afford the protection to our industry that insurance companies or law enforcement don't. Just my opinion, dave
>>-----
>>2.1 bay of la rosy boas
>>1.0.8 kenyan sand boas
>>3.3 ball pythons
>>1.0 central american boa
>>4.9 leopard geckos
>>3.3 assorted cali king
>>1.0 greyband king

chances are the premiums would be way too high if you have not made any return on the investment. It is sometimes a risk a small, new business has to take simply because the premiums are too high. Imagine how high a risk an insurance company is going to consider a business dealing with exotic snakes, especially since 99% of them have done no research on stats or what it costs to make a dollar insuring such a risk. The premiums would be overly high simply becuase the insurance co's haven't done the necessary research.
-----
Rob Talkington

There are insurances for exotic animals. ask your vet. I was quoted $3 a month for my Ball Python...

Your vet was most likely speaking of PET HEALTH INSURANCE.

I believe you're thinking of health insurance.
-----
Check Out My Albums

1.0 Ball Python
"Aragorn"

1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa
"Gimli"

0.1 Australian Cattle Dog/Pointer
"Kira"