Reptile & Amphibian Forums

the genetics of a reptile? Someone sells you a BP that is guaranteed to be 100% het for albino. This is bred and does not "prove" out (assume everything else is in order). Now what?

>> Buyer
Hey John Doe, I bought this snake from you 3 years ago and it does not produce what you said it should produce.

>> Seller
How do I know this is the same snake you bought from me?

Any thoughts?

Answer; Caveat Emptor. Only buy from REPUTABLE breeders.

Buying from the big boys does not mean they will(after 3 years) just give you your money back. I would think a lot of these big breeders have been cheated in the past.

So how does one get his money back? So if i sent you say $7,000 for a pair of Hets(100%) and then 3 years later i say i got nothing(the morph), as a big breeder, you would take my word and just send me $7,000 back(of coarse after i send the snake back)? How would the breeder even know if that was his snakes in the 1st place. The buyer could keep the Hets(with baby morphs) and send 2 thee year old Pythons back.

Seems too easy to be cheated. Yet it also seems to easy to get away with it if they were not Hets. It seems to be a double edged blade here. Who wins and who looses.

Then have too look at it from the buyers stand point. The buyer is a no one, he might be trying to get into the Ball business, but if he goes public with this breeder, will everyone stay away from this new guy. So maybe the buyer says nothing.

I mean if i bought a pair of Hets and they did not prove out and i got them from a big breeder and the breeder said he was not going to give me my money back, i don't know what i would do. Proving something like this would be tough and spreading a bad word can get the buyer in hot water.

I think its food for thought. Proof of anything 3 years old is tough. So does the buyer suck it up? Does the big breeder get away with it? If he does get away with it, how many more times did her get away with it?

Or, is it all based on trust? Reputation is not always what it seems when you get into big business.

I would love to hear from a big breeder on this? How is the little guy protected when he buys a Het or pair of Hets that take 3 or 4 years to prove(or not prove) out?

Thanks... JAZ

This is why I plan to micro-chip ALL of my high dollar babies, hets, homos, etc.... Micro-chips cannot be altered and to remove them would be detrimental to the animals. : )

Pictures and drawings are also a good way to keep track of animals.
When I got a bunch of hets recently, I photographed them as I pulled them from the bags, along with a small sign with what they were on it.

I think what we really need is a registration system with snakes, DNA testing etc....., similar to what AKC does.

Any opinions??

Regards,
Jen

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HerpCrazy Reptiles

I like the idea of the chip. I have been seeing more and more breeders sell Hets with chips. I think that is a great idea. This way if the snake does not prove out, the snake can be scanned and the breeder does know it is his.

I do plan on breeding and maybe selling a few of them as time goes on. I think that the chip will be the way to go to give the buyer piece of mind(as well as myself).

I hope no one took my post wrong. I think with the amount of big money going around in this, its a valid question. I also by no means am saying anyone has scr*wed me to this point. Anyone that i had a problem (small one) with, made up for it in a big way. So i do thank all out there that has sold me Balls and has come through.

Thanks for the reply... JAZ

>>Buying from the big boys does not mean they will(after 3 years) just give you your money back. I would think a lot of these big breeders have been cheated in the past.
>>
>>So how does one get his money back? So if i sent you say $7,000 for a pair of Hets(100%) and then 3 years later i say i got nothing(the morph), as a big breeder, you would take my word and just send me $7,000 back(of coarse after i send the snake back)? How would the breeder even know if that was his snakes in the 1st place. The buyer could keep the Hets(with baby morphs) and send 2 thee year old Pythons back.
>>
>>Seems too easy to be cheated. Yet it also seems to easy to get away with it if they were not Hets. It seems to be a double edged blade here. Who wins and who looses.
>>
>>Then have too look at it from the buyers stand point. The buyer is a no one, he might be trying to get into the Ball business, but if he goes public with this breeder, will everyone stay away from this new guy. So maybe the buyer says nothing.
>>
>>I mean if i bought a pair of Hets and they did not prove out and i got them from a big breeder and the breeder said he was not going to give me my money back, i don't know what i would do. Proving something like this would be tough and spreading a bad word can get the buyer in hot water.
>>
>>I think its food for thought. Proof of anything 3 years old is tough. So does the buyer suck it up? Does the big breeder get away with it? If he does get away with it, how many more times did her get away with it?
>>
>>Or, is it all based on trust? Reputation is not always what it seems when you get into big business.
>>
>>I would love to hear from a big breeder on this? How is the little guy protected when he buys a Het or pair of Hets that take 3 or 4 years to prove(or not prove) out?
>>
>>Thanks... JAZ
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Josh
My Email

oops, I misread your post. The micro-chip thing is a good idea.
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Josh
My Email

One word: DOCUMENTATION

I understand, but any doc. is only as good as the person issueing it. I am a autograph dealer and i give Certificate of Authenticity and it is only paper. Like any snake paperwork.

I have run into tons of autograph dealers who are dishonest and make that certificate, does that mean anything(nope)? And even in the autograph business, knowing whats real and not is very hard, so proving a signature is hard.

I just think ita all about education and (thinking) you know who your buying from. Proof is in the babies. Oh, well... Thanks ... JAZ

Hello,

I can certainly understand your concern when it comes to this matter. I can only tell you what we do to prevent this from happening... we have adopted these methods from the breeders we have purchased from...

1) Having an excess of rack systems that can be easily labeled. Snakes in the right place can rarely get confused for others (swithced while cleaning, etc.) But what happens if a snake escapes and pushes boxes open? Or an employee inadvertently swithces an animal without noticing? On to #2...

2) Photographs that are of good enough quality to match the snakes with their pictures. We find that Ball Pythons seem to be like "finger prints" each have their own identifying marks.

3) We keep record cards with a notable portion of the animal's pattern drawn on the back of each. (Thanks Ralph... I am getting better at drawing!) LOL!

In theory, if we ever had a customer call us with a pair of 100% Hets. that are not het. we would certainly be suspicious. We take a lot of care to keep all these records and we double and triple check things before the animals are shipped/sold. If that customer could send us a photo that matches the photo in our possesion and the illustration on the back of each record card then the situation would be remedied.

This would also work if we sold an animal to a customer who decided to sell it to a thrid party. That third party could contact us directly to verify the animals they are purchasing are indeed the animals that we sold to the original buyer.

We always buy Hets. from those who can provide us with these same types of records. It definitely helps you "sleep easy" when you are spending a lot of money on 100% Hets.

Hope this helps...

Thanks
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I know Ralph Davis keeps track of markings on the snakes he sells. That way he will know it was one of his. He also keeps this info after snakes have sold so he can verfiy genetics if the snkaes are resold.

Id say if you dont like to trust people and the answers given dont suffice for you to just bite the bullet and hold off to get the actual morph. Then you know you got what you paid for.

I'll reply to all in this one.

>>Answer; Caveat Emptor. Only buy from REPUTABLE breeders.

The sale is a two-way street. Both seller and buyer need a way to be protected. A reputable seller *might* protect the prudent buyer, but as JohnZ pointed out, what protects the seller from the buyer? I posted this question from both a buyer and seller standpoint. I have eggs in the incubator (due July 28) from an albino to a normal. I am looking to sell or trade so I need to protect myself from an unscrupulous buyer or transfer of animal.

>>Then have too look at it from the buyers stand point. The buyer is a no one, he might be trying to get into the Ball business, but if he goes public with this breeder, will everyone stay away from this new guy. So maybe the buyer says nothing

I'm not trying to get into the Ball business, however, I do like to "play" with my private collection. And I did have some problems with a large breeder (one of the largest). Please don't ask, I'm not saying. I politely tried getting it corrected but I was "blown" off without explanation. Who would believe me against the big breeder? Although, I do have all emails with promises.

>>I think its food for thought. Proof of anything 3 years old is tough.

But that's reality. Your freshly hatched male won't be ready to breed for at least a year. Your freshly hatched female, at least two years (with power feeding). Then you have the breeding cycle. If they don't take, now you have to add another year. 3 years is not out of the norm.

I know Bob Clark micro's some of his animals and I think he charges $30 to do it for others. This seems to be a good deal, however, you would only do this on high-end animals. Who would micro a $250 male het for albino? $250 $30 $60 S&H) = $340 snake.

Drawings are subjective and short-term. My BP looks different as an adult as he did when a hatchling. Pictures are better but there must be two sets. I think a seller should send the snake along with:

1) 2-3 identifying pictures (Should be physical, since digitals are too easy to alter. The breeder should put on the pics identifying numbers for tracking and the type of snake (e.g., male, 66% het Clown, etc.) These pics should be sets. I bring my snake to you and the breeder can quickly match it up. "Yep, that's the one I sold or not a chance". People would think twice about trying to cheat the breeder in this case.

2) There should also be some compensatory statement. If you breed this het to het two years in a row, they throw 8 eggs each and nothing but normals, chances are good one or both may not be hets (even thought it's possible to get nothing from the hets).

3) I'm for microing the snake if it's safe to a hatchling and cost-effective.

A registration system might not be a bad idea. Of course, this costs to administer and police.

>>In theory, if we ever had a customer call us with a pair of 100% Hets. that are not het. we would certainly be suspicious.

Sean, I think that's a natural reaction. The question is in how you deal with it. Do you "blow" off the buyer like so many or try to remedy the situation. By reading your post, I would guess, you would try to properly take care of the problem.

The plot thickens. What if I buy two hets and they produce, say two Axanthics. I call you up and say, "man, I got normals again, what are you going to do about it?". You look at your pics and determine these are the ones you sold me and say you'll give me a refund. Now, I have pretty much gotten free morphs (from your "loaner" hets) and you have two snakes you now have to breed to confirm - you don't really want to resell them with this issue looming. If no morph, you try again. If no morph, you decide "oops, an honest mistake, these go back to the normal bin". But if they do produce, now you are suspicious but what can you do at this point? Too bad genetic testing costs too much.

>>Id say if you dont like to trust people and the answers given dont suffice for you to just bite the bullet and hold off to get the actual morph. Then you know you got what you paid for.

Great if you have the money. I spent quite a bit on an actual morph. Now, with hets in the incubator, I am looking at getting one or more different morphs. How to safely go about this is the impedous behind my post.
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Jay A. Martin

I was poking around to see if there was a lab offering paternity tests for reptiles but didn’t find one yet. It looks like human paternity tests are around $200.

I'm not expert but I'm thinking that a test has to be developed specific to the species. If this is the case, there probably isn't enough demand for anyone to develop one.

If there could be a more generic test (presumably with less certainty) that could be economically applied to multiple species I think there would be a market for that.

With the possibility of sperm retention or maybe even parthenogenesis some might want to pay a few hundred extra on high $ hets to have a test documenting that the morph male was the father. I would think a paternity test would be much more realistic at this point than an actual test for the mutant gene which would have to be identified (a veritable needle in the haystack). Maybe we aren't yet at the point where snake paternity testing is an option but I bet we are getting there.

With a good picture to positively identify the individual snake and a genetic test to verify paternity I would think there would be little risk for either side other than the normal risk of an animal dieing or not reproducing.

The biggest remaining catch is what is proof that an animal wasn’t a het. How many eggs do you need to hatch? What was it bred to (could there have been a mix-up with the purchaser’s breeding)? Breeder A could suspect that it’s breeder B’s “het” male and not his “het” female that is at fault.

And then you get into the whole thing of how to make it right. Can the animal just be replaced with another (proven?) of the same size? This would thwart the person who just wants their money back because prices have fallen.

And more than likely never will be.Every possible scenario has a flaw or two and this is no exception.Buying anything het is a serious chance at getting nothing but "het" for normals.Genetics paperwork written up and copied about the animal is about 50% accurate.This can be tampered with and is NOT a guaranteed way of getting anything.Buying from reputable breeders as everyone here states also is about 60% accurate,They too can be dishonest if needbe for the quick buck.Taking pics of the animal for sale isnt accurate at all.Alot of snakes will change color,pattern,etc as they grow so taking a pic of say a baby b/p het for albino isnt going to look the same as when it gets to breeding age.

Someone mentioned about using microchips for the purpase of keeping track of the animal in ?,That could get very expensive in the long run and to me wouldnt be worth the time and effort to do so.Lets say you have 1,000 baby b/ps and you want to microchip about half of that.500 b/ps at $60 bucks a pop is alot of wasted money.Out of those 500 you sell 200 to the genral public.That leaves you with 300 b/ps to either keep as pets,sell as a whole,or keep for future breeders.Now as the ones you sold to the genral public begin to grow,some will make it others wont.So out of the 200 sold to the genral public about 150 of those survive to make it to adulthood.50 b/ps have died along the way and 300 dollars has been shot down for microchipping.All that is just hypothetical just imagine if it was say 5000 then the amount of money you would lose compared to saving is going to outway,Still want to do the microchip theory.

Basically what all this means is there is no guaranteed way of getting exactly what you are expecting.Its just like gambling.You throw the dice and out of 5 throws you have at least 2 chances of crapping out.You may get the het for albino you've always wanted or you may wind up with just a normal het for nothing,Chalk it up as a loss and move on.Everything in life is like a piece of sour candy,Sweet on the outside,sour in the middle.Regards Bill McLeod

Drive slow,you get there;Drive fast,you get there sooner;Drive faster,you'll live longer.

While I agree that nothing is 100% guarantied, I don't really think patterns change in ball pythons much. I've kept "baby" pictures of mine and periodically (especially at breeding time) compare them to the adults just to be sure there hasn't been a mix up. It looks to me like the patterns might stretch a little but I've found distinctive pattern elements in all of mine and have found good photos to be an excellent low cost way to identify individual ball pythons. Of course a reseller could doctor documentation and change photos etc. so no it's not perfect but I find it a useful tool.

Maybe if I ever start producing for sure hets I’ll maintain original photo’s on my web site for potential resellers and purchasers to check against. If you produce many I suppose that gets to be a lot of work and space but I’ve already had two cases of people buying my possible possible het crap and trying to resell it as 100% het.

Just subtle variations of patterning,Like youre saying with the stretching.Although i have to say i have saw patterns blur with age instead of being the nice crisp outlined pattern as a youngster.Pics are a good way of distincting between some differences but again its not a guarantee that it will always be the same.The only surefire way of guaranteeing anything with a little better certainty is for the seller to be as honest as possible and represent their animals for what they are and not what they "think they are".Thats the problem with the herp world now is the fact that everyone thinks they have something super special when all it is is a normal animal not a het for anything.

Now if by chance you have 2 animals,1 being albino,and the other normal then say what they are when you sell them and not what you think they should be.Second guessing the whole genetics to anything is plain absurd.If you DONT know for sure what you have then sell them as normal not as chocolate dalmation or butterscotch albino.Honesty will get you places where lying will get you hurt. Regards Bill McLeod

I'm still glad people sell hets and possible hets. Certainly you need to be careful shopping in this area but it provides an economical chance for most anyone to produce anything and encourages a lot of outbreeding along the way.

If no one trusted hets or possible hets enough to buy them then there would be much less incentive to outbreed and produce them.

Anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of paternity testing? Sounds like a good business for someone with the expertise to go into. I've got to think the technology is there and getting cheaper ever year.

As the seller represents them honestly.What i'm saying is if you have an albino and breed it with a normal and get 4 eggs,one of the 4 has a chance of being 100% het as the others only have a 25% chance of being het so dont sell them all as 100%ers unless you know that for sure.Sell them as normals instead of something they're not.Thats where the honesty of the game will prove whos got it and whos just trying to get it.If you have a 66% het for albino then sell it as that and dont guarantee it.How can you guarantee something you dont know.That would be like me going to the casino and the dealer saying if you play i can guarantee you that you will win $500.He cant and he knows it but he tells me that anyway so i'll shell out the dough for the fix of gambling.Its dishonesty at its best.The same goes for hets.

A perfect example of this is in dogs.Lets say i have a german shepard and want to breed her with a male with darker colors and different patterning on the fur.They are both pure blood animals from the highest order of breeding.Now can you tell me which one is going to have the dominating genes?Oh sure you can guess but either way you have a 50/50 chance of being wrong and you also have a chance of being wrong on both counts.DNA is DNA no matter which way you slice,dice,cut,calculate or whatever.No matter how many times you calculate to try and see how many hets you will get you will always be wrong on one count or another.Thats why hets to me are no guarantee of nothing but normals.Anything below 100% het with the provided paperwork is nothing more than a normal with a very slim chance of producing anything but normals.I have a b/p male thats 66% het for albino but in my eyes he's just a normal with very little chance of ever producing albinos.To me it doesnt matter because i didnt buy him for the reproductive aspect of it,just the pet side of it.If he does by chance produce anything with either of the females i have then yay for me but if not then yay for me anyway because money isnt everything.There are more important things in life than money.

The paternity testing idea would be good if 1)it was cost effective.2)If you could figure out how to test the genetics accurately within a certain percentile.The thing i say is let nature take its course,you may not get what you want but at least theres no hassle getting what you need. Regards Bill McLeod

"As the seller represents them honestly.What i'm saying is if you have an albino and breed it with a normal and get 4 eggs,one of the 4 has a chance of being 100% het as the others only have a 25% chance of being het so dont sell them all as 100%ers unless you know that for sure.Sell them as normals instead of something they're not ..."

Did you mean if you bred an albino HET to a normal?

If you breed an albino to a normal all the babies will be het albino baring retained sperm, parthenogenesis, or another male having access. I don't think the first is very likely, the 2nd may not even exist, and the third depends on how careful the breeder is.

If you where thinking about a het albino to a normal then each baby has a 50% chance of being het (barring the above). The chances are independent of each other, there is no guarantee of 2 out of 4 being hets.

Heres what i mean.Percentage wise if you breed an Albino b/p to a normal b/p then have 4 viable eggs from the breeding then heres what you have a chance of getting percentage wise.You can have a possibility of having one baby thats 100% het for albino,4 babies 25% het for albino,2 babies at 50% albino-2 normal.66% hets dont count as hets to me because you cant have 2 babies out of 4 that are 66% het for anything.The most you could hope for is 2 50% hets unless you are some genetics wizard and can identify which 2 are carrying two thirds of the one parents genes.Its a guessing game at best and unless they are 100% hets to me it isnt worth the extra money to shell out for nothing except normals.You might get lucky and hit with percentage hets but its slim.Regards Bill Mcleod

you say breeding an ALBINO to a NORMAL ball python will result in..

"You can have a possibility of having one baby thats 100% het for albino,4 babies 25% het for albino,2 babies at 50% albino-2 normal."

thats WRONG in every way possible..

homozygous albino x wild type normal will result in ALL offspring being 100% het for albino. Every baby will get a copy of the albino parents gene, so all resulting offspring from a albino X normal are 100% het albinos..

you must have been thinking HET albino X HET albino.. which if they gave you 4 viable eggs, the genetic odds are:

1 ALBINO
2 66% het albinos (2 of the 3 resulting carry the gene you just dont know which ones)
1 normal

while thats the "perfect" clutch it is possible for you to get ALL albinos.. or all NORMALS.. the odds could go either way..
http://www.geneticswizard.com/

Bill,

Your theory is for a het X normal. Albino X normal would (theoretically) produce all 100% het for albino (normal looking).
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Jay A. Martin

Everyone: Forget everything you TOUGHT you knew about genetics and read this thread!

No, seriously... We're talking about a recessive mutation here (amelanism)? Right?

Because, in that case, all the 4 babies would be 100% Het for amelanism... There is no doubt in my mind about this!

Bill,

What you are saying is this is the way it SHOULD be. Unfortunately, it's not, and I'm looking for ways to minimize potential bad dealings.

>>And more than likely never will be.Every possible scenario has a flaw or two and this is no exception.Buying anything het is a serious chance at getting nothing but "het" for normals.Genetics

True, but the more steps you go through, the better your chances of getting what you expected.

>>paperwork written up and copied about the animal is about 50% accurate.This can be tampered with and is NOT a guaranteed way of getting anything.Buying from reputable breeders as everyone

I have paperwork on a potential het that so far has not proven out. Unfortunately, when I got her, her weight was understated, she was supposedly feeding (was not) and was not bred the previous year. It took me a year to get her to 2000 grams. Last year, she did not take. This year it looks the same. Now, if I finally get her to lay next year - 3 year after purchase!! - what obligates the seller to even consider my claim?? This is assuming no morphs and plenty of eggs.

I haven't done the picture taking approach from hatchling to adult. I would be interesting to see some comparisons.

>>Someone mentioned about using microchips for the purpase of keeping track of the animal in ?,That could get very expensive in the long run and to me wouldnt be worth the time and effort

$60 is a small price to pay for a $3000 het and worth it. It seems too high for a $250 het. However, the money we shell out isn't the *real* cost. It's the invested time. $250 is nothing compared to all the hours I put into raising the animal, putting it into a breeding program, and incubating the eggs. That's the true cost for me.

>>to do so.Lets say you have 1,000 baby b/ps and you want to microchip about half of that.500 b/ps at $60 bucks a pop is alot of wasted money.Out of those 500 you sell 200 to the genral public.That leaves you with 300 b/ps to either keep as pets,sell

I don't think anyone is producing that many morphs in a season - or at least very few. This would devastate the market if everyone was flooding it with say Axanthics.

>>those survive to make it to adulthood.50 b/ps have died along the way and 300 dollars has been shot down for microchipping.All

I think you miss the point of the microchip. If they die, they die. This really does not have anything to do with protecting the buyer or seller. I for one would pay the extra for the "piece of mind" (and if there was an adequate guarantee).

>>Basically what all this means is there is no guaranteed way of getting exactly what you are expecting.Its just like

Which is why I posed the question.

>>gambling.You throw the dice and out of 5 throws you have at least 2 chances of crapping out.You may get the het for albino

But you can increase your chances for getting what you expect.

>>you've always wanted or you may wind up with just a normal het for nothing,Chalk it up as a loss and move on.Everything in life is like a piece of sour candy,Sweet on the outside,sour in the middle.Regards Bill McLeod

"Chalk it up as a loss"? I don't have that kind of money and especially not that kind of time.

It's been an interesting thread so far with some very good input.
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Jay A. Martin

I'm not saying that that is the way it should be just there are some things that should be considered before spending upwards of $5-$6000 on anything het.If you want to spend that kind of money on a chance at nothing then go right ahead but me i can think of alot more appeasing things to spend $5 grand on than a snake that cant produce a morph of any kind.

Paperwork again is not a guarantee of nothing.It can be rewritten,copied,forged,reprinted,etc. and if the potential breeders want to use the paperwork and guarantee you the chance of producing a morph of some kind then they should stand behind it 100%,if not then they dont belong in this business.If i was selling het for piebald babies and someone bought a clutch from me and i guaranteed them that when they breed them they would get at least one piebald,and they dont,i dont care if it was 5 years down the road if they didnt produce at least one piebald then i would live up to my guarantee and either give them the money back or give them a piebald to produce piebalds with.As i said before honesty is the best policy,if you're not then stay the hell out of the business of selling snakes.So far this business isnt as corrupt as the corporate management is but give it time and we'll be right there with them.

Microchipping would be good if it was cost effective.If and only if you chipped the morphs or potential morphs then it might would work,but if thats all you produced was morphs then chipping could get a little expensive.The pricing in the last post was hypothetical but i got your point about it being worth that if it were that cheap,but i dont think it is,although i could be wrong.If it run as high as say $100 a snake and you produced 50 morphs (hypothetical) then you would be spending in excess of $5 grand just for chipping.Thats not including housing,food,equipment,bedding,water bowls,etc,etc,etc.After you get through calculating all of that into the price of say a het for albino then you would have to sell the het for about 5 grand just to get the money back for the chipping.Also you have to take into consideration of the guaranteeing aspect too.If you guaranteed that it would produce albinos and it doesnt then you're out the $5 grand so your now in the whole. Regards Bill McLeod

Micro-chipping is very inexpensive, like $6 per chip. You can get set up to chip them yourself for about $400.
One of the things you get when you buy from a "name" breeder is that they cannot afford to misrepresent their animals as anything other than what they are because they simply have too much to loose. Their reputation is on the line. If they did, and were found out & exposed, it would spread like wild fire (everyone loves a car wreck) and they might possibly be out of business, or it would hurt their business to say the least. It takes years to build a reputation, it takes seconds to ruin it.
A no name person who might have very questionable ethics could easily cheat you however. Lets say he has the morph, has pics of it breeding a normal, pics of the clutch, etc. Whats to stop the guy from pulling a baby out of that batch of 100 he just got in from Ghana, and saying it's a het? He could micro chip it, take pics of it and everything, it's still a normal ! What does he have to loose? He's a creep anyway?
Always best to do business with someone you trust, and if you don't trust them, don't do business with them.
Paul Edwards

I didnt realize that chipping was so cheap.If its that cheap then IMO it wouldnt be no better than it is now.People can still misrepresent animals jsut to make a quick buck and we would be right back to square one.

Even big name breeders misrepresent animals and sometimes wont back up their guarantees to boot.Some will hold to their guarantees as where others you practically have to threaten them with bodily harm before they will uphold it to save face.There are some that are doing a great job and should be commended for their efforts but the ones that ARE dishonest should get out of the business.All it takes is one bad seed to change the way people think for life about buying from anyone online or in person. Regards Bill McLeod

x number of customers and these customers have had results. Of the projects we have started (clown; VPI axanthic; genetic stripe; albino bloods, paradox sand boas etc there wouldn't be any around if it wasn't the real deal. Unfortunately there are people who use other people's names to sell their animals. I personally have been called by a third party to inquire if I sold het animals to an individual-and I absolutely had not sold the guy hets. I looked back on my records and I had sold the guy normals-and he was trying to sell them as hets. He paid $500 for the pair of snakes and was trying to sell them for $5K. He would not have been able to prove he had purchased "het" animals from us because he had sent me a MO for $500! I scan every check/MO I get, and it was very easy to go back, check my QuickBooks for the sale and find the scanned image of the MO he had paid me. I sent copies of these to the person who was going to buy the snakes and he confronted the person who was trying to sell him the snakes.

People have to remember the odds can go any way. Not hatching a recessive mutation out of 5 eggs doesn't prove anything. You could unfortunately do that for a life time. Ask the bigger breeders who have gotten 0/8 one clutch, but then produced 3/5 the next, even from their own projects! You will hear about the 0/8, but not the 4/8!! Yes there is risk, but the odds wouldn't be what they were unless it was a proven scientific result over time (since Mendel). Remember-even when you breed codominant traits that yield a theoretical 50% result, you can get 0/8, so to not get a 1/4 result, can't be surprising to you. It doesn't "owe" you, each egg has a 1/4 chance of being the recessive you are looking for.

There is a lot to your post that just doesn't seem to add up:

>And more than likely never will be.Every possible scenario has >a flaw or two and this is no exception.Buying anything het is a >serious chance at getting nothing but "het" for normals.

Which is why Hets are so much cheaper. The market is what sustains the price on anything, so $250 is what the RISK of a failed "het" is worth on a Male het for albino. So I agree with you to this point.

>Genetics paperwork written up and copied about the animal is >about 50% accurate.This can be tampered with and is NOT a guaranteed way of getting anything.

72% of all statistics given on the spot are completely made up (snoodge!)...The paperwork is really only as good as the letterhead on it. If that letterhead says "VPI" it is worth a bit more to me than if it says "Joe Schmoe's snake of the month club". As with any other warranty, it is only as good as the person backing it.

>Buying from reputable breeders as everyone here states also is >about 60% accurate,They too can be dishonest if needbe for the >quick buck.

Where do you get 60% from? Did you buy 100 hets from reputable reptile breeders and only got 60 truly het animals? I'd say your chances are better with reptile breeders because THEY HAVE MORE TO LOSE IF THEY DEVELOP A BAD REPUTATION! Little Billy trying to make a buck after school can give a rat's you-know-what if people don't trust him. Bob Clark, on the other hand, might have EVERYTHING to lose! Most of the reputable breeders have worked quite hard to get that way, and aren't likely to take it very lightly if that could be tarnished.

>Taking pics of the animal for sale isnt accurate at all.Alot of >snakes will change color,pattern,etc as they grow so taking a >pic of say a baby b/p het for albino isnt going to look the >same as when it gets to breeding age.

Color, yes definitely. Pattern?????? Are you dipping your snakes in bleach or something? Kool-aid? Except for the changing of colors, I have yet to see the pattern of my snakes change except to grow in proportion to the snake itself.

>Someone mentioned about using microchips for the purpase of >keeping track of the animal in ?,That could get very expensive >in the long run and to me wouldnt be worth the time and effort >to do so. Lets say you have 1,000 baby b/ps and you want to >microchip about half of that.

1,000 hets?!! Wow, do any of the big breeders ever have this problem? I think that's an awful lot, even for a SnakeKeeper, VPI, Bob Clark, etc.

>500 b/ps at $60 bucks a pop is alot of wasted money.

I've heard thirty bucks pop, but I'll go with your figures: $30,000: About the price of a good Super Pastel. Perhaps the improved reputation that would result from this practice is worth it. To be honest, I'd pay $30 - $60 extra for a microchip, depending on the animal.

>Out of those 500 you sell 200 to the genral public.

Why would you need to microchip something you aren't selling? I don't get it.

>That leaves you with 300 b/ps to either keep as pets,sell as a >whole,or keep for future breeders.

Then I wouldn't microchip them. If I'm hatching 1,000 ball python morph hets a year, I trust that the people I have helping me care for them will be able to organize things in a proper way to make microchipping them unnecessary.

>Now as the ones you sold to the genral public begin to >grow,some will make it others wont.So out of the 200 sold to >the genral public about 150 of those survive to make it to >adulthood.50 b/ps have died along the way and 300 dollars has >been shot down for microchipping.

I always though you microchipped animals after a few months, not right at birth. It would seem like a pretty stressful procedure to undertake on a hatchling. Besides, I'm sure breeders would have thought of this. I wouldn't chip a snake that I didn't have pretty good reason to believe was going to survive.

>All that is just hypothetical just imagine if it was say 5000 >then the amount of money you would lose compared to saving is >going to outway,Still want to do the microchip theory.

Too bad the reasoning that got you to this point had more holes than Swiss Cheese. The more animals you have, the lower your cost will be. And you can take THAT to the bank!

>Basically what all this means is there is no guaranteed way of >getting exactly what you are expecting.Its just like >gambling.You throw the dice and out of 5 throws you have at >least 2 chances of crapping out.

Except it isn't like gambling at all. If anything, it's like the stock market. The higher the potential gain, the higher the potential risk. If you trust the person who is selling it to you, then go for it. If you got screwed, then your judgment was skewed and a new lesson is learned. I agree with the guy who said that if you don't want to take the risk, then just buy the visible morph itself. Of course it's more expensive, but don't play the game if you are afraid of it.

I don't know, it's pretty obvious. The low price reflects a great many things: the seemingly much higher availability of hets in relation to actual morph animals, the fact that you have to do all the work to get that morph, and the risk you are taking that it might not get it for you. If you want to pay $2,000 - $3500 for an albino, great! Get it. If not, you can get a het-albino for between $200 and $800. If all the risk and such isn't worth $200 - $800 to you, then don't get one. Enough said!