Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My wife and I can't even begin to explain how awesome it has been to recieve the kind of love and support that we have. When this theft took place we were crushed, 4 years of work, dreams and hopes were destroyed.
Many, many of you understood this and came forward. I can't say thank you enough.
I have been very busy with all of this. My wife is having some complications due to the miscarriage so that has my full attention right now.
I will try to get back to all the emails as soon as I can. I have not forgot about them and they are VERY important to me. If you have not heard back from me, you will soon.
I can't say enough about the Sutherlands. I don't know where to start, when Dan brought this up to me I thought he was kidding. I did not expect such a generous showing. I am blown away. There are many people who have made awesome offers to help me. I won't mention them now, I plan to get my own site up soon and with their permission will post more then.
Lets hope this reward will get people talking!

A word to the wise... I know it seems like everyone in this industry is set up like fort knox. That is not correct. Most of the people I have talked to had no idea how much theft goes on in this industry. It is shameful. Most people are not well protected. Please let this be a wake up call, GET ALARMS! It might not protect all of you but I sure wish I knew about all the theft BEFORE it happened to me.

Thanks again. We will be updating everyone soon.
Jeff and Rachel Houston

Jeff!
I hope you get all your snakes back home!
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Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

Well, I don't know how you're going to feel about this but I'm going to offer my suggestion anyway.

I would strongly suggest you get, not only an alarm system, but some breed of protection dog. My personal choice is the Rottweiler. I could go into a very long explaination why, but I'll try to keep it brief. First some facts, a dog is three times stronger than a fit human so very few people can contend with a 90-120lbs. dog. Rottweilers are not "killers", "vicious", "ferocious", "dangerous" or any other "ous"'s. They are, however, extremely protective of their family and belongings. These dogs will literally lay down their own lives to save the life of their master. Imagine the peace of mind with that as your child's companion dog. They're like really big cats with people they love, they tolerate people they like and are aloof with strangers. This dog will require a lot of training, by everyone that you want it familiar with...i.e. immediate family, choice friends, parents, etc. Follow the obedience training with either schutzhund or protection training and your dog will listen to every command without question. Be a responsible owner and you won't have to worry about the dog getting out and hurting someone. That pretty much covers the basics.

Now, for some personal experience. I've been around Rotties for about the last 15 years, since I was 11, and they are absolutely wonderful dogs. They do require a time commitment on your part and they aren't "backyard" dogs, though. Several of my friends had Rotties when I was young, one's mom even bred them, and never once did any of those dogs threaten me...after the owner properly aquainted me with the dogs. I've had my own in that time aswell and they've proved to be very valuable to me, in many ways. I used to live in what's commonly refered to as "the ghetto" and as you can imagine, it wasn't exactly a nice place. My dogs proved their protective nature several times in the years I lived there. They've never attacked or bitten anyone, but the closest was when a hooded figure came riding around the corner very slowly as I was getting out of my car late at night. I pulled my dog out and held his collar instead of his leash, he was calm right up until the figure stopped, pulled his hood off and started talking in what I can best describe as an "unfriendly" tone. At the time, the dog almost pulled me over to get to him and I was 6'5" and a muscular 276lbs...the dog was about 80lbs. The guy just stopped, said "you've got a good dog" and then left. At that moment, I decided I would always have a Rottweiler in my life.

A Rottie might not be correct for you and your family, but there are other protection and/or watch dogs that might.

Sorry I didn't post this pic with my original, somewhat longer than I intended, post. But this is what I mean. This will keep enough people away to make your security system jealous.

Awesome looking dog! my cousins rot is only 3 but has cancer and will probably have to be put down. But yeah theres nothing better than having a guard dog on duty. My neighbors house was recently robbed and luckily my boxer was in the yard at the time going nuts so I came outside to see the guy running out the back door. But like in Jeff's case, when snakes are stolen that have so much financial and sentimental value to them it's really hard to grasp.

Oh that's terrible. I look at buying a Rott the same as a morph, the more you spend the better dog you're going to get. My only dog right now is a Rott/Pit mix, but when I get a new place I plan on about $2k for a nice ADRK (real German) bloodline dog. I've experience something similar to his loss. A stereo system that I put a lot of money and work into, installing everything myself, was stolen out of my car. The kicker, was it was in the middle of the parking lot where I worked and it wasn't even a big parking lot. No where near the same finacial loss, but I was devistated none-the-less. I can only imagine that with the loss that much higher, the distress would be that much higher. It really sucks and so does Cali at times.

The Rott is Kira. She was a GREAT dog. Unfortunatly she had a lot of health issues you must watch for in Rotts (Hip and Knee Dysplasia, Ulcers, Immune defficiency) and finally when she was 8 I lost her to cancer. I still miss her. (Don't worry the chainmail she is wearing is alunimum, not heavy enough to hurt her hips or knees)

The Boxer is Atlas (Breeder named him, mostly we call him Jughead) he is 3 this year, and turning into quite the gaurd dog! Makes quite the ruckus if he doesn't know who is at the door!

The problem with keeping a big dog for protection is.......you have to trust your dog enough to leave him/her loose in your house when your not home!! Kira was always great about not messing up the house, but Atlas is just getting so I don't have to worry!

>>The Boxer is Atlas (Breeder named him, mostly we call him Jughead) he is 3 this year, and turning into quite the gaurd dog! Makes quite the ruckus if he doesn't know who is at the door!
>>
>>
>>The problem with keeping a big dog for protection is.......you have to trust your dog enough to leave him/her loose in your house when your not home!! Kira was always great about not messing up the house, but Atlas is just getting so I don't have to worry!

One of our favorite dogs was a beagleXboxer we had. Not a bad guard, terrible hunter, but what a sense of humor!
They mature late and have loads of energy. Kinda like a Border Collie calms down around 4 or 5 yrs old.:0)
With a Bullmastiff....we trusted one of ours too soon (8 months) and came home to him sleeping on what was left of the couch. He was tired! He had shredded, totally shredded the entire end off the couch...no arm, no legs and about 1/3 of the first cushion gone. Toothpicks. Thankfully they mature fast and we could trust ours at about a year. Now all ours does is LAY on the couch. The BCs we keep crated. They are only 4 and not always trustworthy with countertops and small moving pets.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

Get your BullMastiff a Kong...the black one. I got one for a power-chewer I used to have, packed it with some treats and he was entertained for hours. Nyla-bones and Denti-bones work really great too.

>>Get your BullMastiff a Kong...the black one. I got one for a power-chewer I used to have, packed it with some treats and he was entertained for hours. Nyla-bones and Denti-bones work really great too.

Yup, done that. His sister used to try to fling it through the TV. He preferred to destroy books. Now he just likes to suck on a stuffed animal. He is getting old now (8yo)and doesn't waste energy with chewing.

Nylabones and Dentibones don't last......we buy cow shanks. Lovely to stub your toe on in the dark.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

LoL. My mix used to have a craving for crossword puzzle books and palm trees. I even found a tin can, that someone threw into my back yard, ripped into tiny pieces without one cut inside his mouth. I think he's part goat. And Nylabones are supposed to be destructive, unless we're talking less than 24 hours.

Pretty dogs. Yeah, I learned my lesson about buying Rotts. My first purebreed from German bloodlines was insane. Actually, his sire was insane...completely. He should have been destroyed for how aggressive he was or, at the very least, altered. And I don't think the breeder did any early socialization with the pups. My dog was fine until he started getting near the two year mark, then the temperment problems started to really surface. He started becoming dominance aggressive towards me and he was, if I remember correctly, 92lbs. at that point. He was destroyed when he was two and a half. I'll never buy a Rott from anyone other than an ADRK breeder now. It's well worth the extra money and hassle to get a Rott that is true to the original breed standard in every way. Any time I think about it, I just look at the scar on my right hand. Hard lessons learned.

If people on this forum are serious about getting a guard dog to protect an investment, there is NOTHING better than a Caucasian Ovcharka. Rare breed, unstoppable defense drive. Best kept secret in the dog world. Do some research, you will be floored. Other breeds including rotties, german shepherds, belgian malinois, dobermans, etc, usually require some amount of expensive protection training. That and it's still a gamble - you very well may end up with a loud dog and no bite. The Caucasian is the opposite - they naturally bite all intruders and must be taught when NOT to. You will have to search long and hard for a Caucasian that doesn't bite anything it views as a threat to anything that it considers its property. And they do not bite like other dogs - they present a full deep mouthed bite (as opposed to front mouth of other dogs). They max out at about 185 pounds and have unbelievable stopping power. But these are not the dog for everyone - you have to have time to maintain a proper realtionship with the dog - i.e. you need to be alpha at all times, and devote the necessary time to staying that way. And you must be 100% responsible - these dogs can and do attack anything they perceive as a threat, and they must be under control at all times.
I know many people use these animals to protect their investments - people in the exotic bird industry for example.
Here is a website that is full of information and should answer most questions about them - do a web search and you'll find tons of info. Jeff and everyone else who likes large dogs and needs protection for their investments should check them out.

http://www.ovcharka-breeds.com/caucasian.htm

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?.?.? Leopard Geckos (eggs incubating)
1.1.1 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
2.5 Paroedura picta(eggsincubating)
1.1 Paroedura bastardi
1.1 Paroedura androyensis
1.1 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus
1.1 Cyrtodactylus irianjayensis
1.1 Gekko gecko
1.1 Pachydactylus turneri
1.1 Uroplatus henkeli
0.0.1 Hemidactylus turcicus turcicus
1.2 Teratolepis fasciata

Snakes
1.0 Blizzard Corn
1.0 Christmas corn
1.2 Reverse Okeetee corn (1 tang)
0.0.1 Ball Python

do you have one? And how much do they cost?

Trust me I groom dogs....that is a lot of hair to deal with lol! Also, I highly disagree with people buying a dog only based on "protection needs" unless they are trained to handle a dog with such a temperment. Rotts, pit bulls, and dobermans are all fine dogs, but are being banned in certain counties, and euthanized in many shelters because the general public fears these dogs are naturally viscious.

I worked at a vet clinic for several years and one of the most heartbreaking moments I ever witnesses involved a pit bull. She was a stray that had been hit by a car. A passerby felt bad for the animal so he called 10 different vets before one agreed to come. At the office he took an x-ray and found that the dog had been shot over 50 times with a bb gun in the hind quarters and chest. It turns out the dog was a sweetheart and was adopted by a loving home. He was tortured because he was a pit bull, and for no other reason. So once again make sure you are prepared to handle a large and potentially deadly weapon (a dog) before you purchase it! Maybe think about a laser beam alarm device LOL!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...

Fascinating. I've never heard of this dog. But I would only recommend this dog to a serious owner, much like a Retic or Green Anaconda. A true-to-conformation German Rott is almost identical to this dog...just not to the same level of aggression. It seems that the author of the site's impression of Rott's is based on the same bad breeding she's trying to prevent with her breed. The only human aggressive Rott's I've seen came from bad breeding. I would, however, now consider this to be the ultimate protection dog with Rott's coming in second...or, actually a tie for first depending on needs. If the need ever arises for me, I'll most likely get one of these animals. But as it stands, I'd still opt for the Rott for my needs because when conforming they are actively aggressive. Their main drawback is that they're mostly one person dogs and every one who you want/need to have control will have to actually be put into that place of control through "control training" (I like that term). That's a definite place of advantage for the Caucasian. I don't know, I just think it's a toss-up for how much you want to put into the responsibility of owning a protection dog.

I plan on doing further research on this breed.

Absolutely - this dog is like a huge venomous green anaconda...lol. Experience with large aggressive breed dogs is a must, and physical strength to control it wouldn't hurt either. And you're right - the integrity of a Rottweiler depends on breeding, and unfortunately for them, they are indiscriminately bred. That's why you see Rotts that vary in temperament from completely useless cowards to indiscriminately vicious animals. I used to work as a vet clinic, and I've seen a lot of Rotts that wouldn't defend themselves or their property for the life of them. But I've also seen marvellously courageous examples of the breed. The Ovcharka is rare, ancient, and their temperaments are predictable because they are ethically bred by people who care and they have not been mass produced. But as far as defense aggression goes, they are hands down the most innately defensive dog. And along with that comes a massive liability. But for someone who has been a victim of theft like Jeff has, this level of defense may be needed. As an unrelated perk, they are marvelous with children very trustworthy, and I won't say that abouit most dogs. Don't get me wrong, NO small child should be left alone with a large dog, but if you were going to do it with a well behaved child, this would be the guard dog breed I'd choose. They are marvelous in the house, very well mannered and behaved - unless someone approaches or knocks that is. But anyway, I'm ranting. Definitely do some research - they are awesome animals with a lot of perks that you wouldn't think of a mastiff-type breed possessing (longevity, little to no drooling, greater agility, etc.)
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?.?.? Leopard Geckos (eggs incubating)
1.1.1 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
2.5 Paroedura picta(eggsincubating)
1.1 Paroedura bastardi
1.1 Paroedura androyensis
1.1 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus
1.1 Cyrtodactylus irianjayensis
1.1 Gekko gecko
1.1 Pachydactylus turneri
1.1 Uroplatus henkeli
0.0.1 Hemidactylus turcicus turcicus
1.2 Teratolepis fasciata

Snakes
1.0 Blizzard Corn
1.0 Christmas corn
1.2 Reverse Okeetee corn (1 tang)
0.0.1 Ball Python

Fully. I pray the Ovcharka doesn't fall victim, like it sounds right now, to the same type of breeding that has destroyed the Rott in America and other countries. I won't buy a dog that isn't directly related to German lines, like the Soviet lines of the Ovcharka. The parents of my prospective pups have to have to correct temperment for the ADRK (the only official Rottie club) and they have to be complete ADRK bloodlines. I plan on being a very ethical Rottie breeder. I want to see this dog return to its true state. I think the largest problem is the fact that they're beautiful dogs aswell as protective. Some people see the beauty of the dog as the important trait to breed for and are quite intentionally breeding the aggression and protectiveness out of the breed. I even had a vet tech tell me once, "oh no, that's not correct. A Rottweiler should accept any action, from any person, at any time!". What?! Then there's all the unscrupulous breeders just trying to turn a fast profit, this is what's going to kill the Ovcharka. Like I said, these guys just seem to be Rott's to next three degrees. Now I'm ranting.

Big dog great with kids, GSMDs are not aggressive in the least!

You know they tell me schipperkes are good with kids...I have one..she'd take one's head off!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...

definitely not for everyone, but oh boy, this is the ULTIMATE guard dog.
National Geographic just featured them on a special. You might be able to look it up on their website -- it was the "designer dogs" program a few weeks ago.
Just one of those dogs to be VERY responsible and super careful with.
dana

Most dog breeds are NOT created as guards. Rotties/GSDs are drovers and shepherds that are taught to be guardy. And since I don't want a dog that will bite first and ask questions later I would rather have a dog with judgement, so my breed of choice is a Bullmastiff. Knock 'em down and keep you safe.
Not dissing any breed. They are all great for various stuff. And individuals may vary for guardiness. And hey, my other breed is Border Collies....the emergency back up dogs.

This is my BMF....the pict was to illustrate his color to someone, so it isn't all macho posturing. But he is medium small at 120# of muscle and bone.

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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

Didnt see your post before I posted. Nothing like a bullmastiff. As I said, I think Jeff has one.

dana

Well maybe he parties a little too much on the job but he is still cool to have around.

np

last month we had to put our rott down. He was 8yo and his hips were awful, it didnt help that he was run over when he was a young dog. It was really hard but he had gotten really grumpy and snappy because he just didnt feel good anymore. When he put a hole in the BC's neck I new something had to give so I made a very hard decision but I think it was best..Believe it or not our BC is a better watch dog than the rott was..Bruno(the rott) was a big softie to most everyone but Kipster(bc) doesnt trust anyone much.But the only thing he will do is come up behind them and try and nip thier ankles, always goes for the ankle..

Beautiful dog! I love brindle Bulls. Actually Rotties first jobs were dog of war and drover for the Roman Empire. Then after settling in the town of Rottweil they became drovers and protection dogs. They're not actually a true herding dog because when conforming to the original breed standard they are too robust and lack the agility needed. Much like the Caucasian Ovcharka, they traits of protection and herding can be bred for independantly. The Australian version, for example, is far more slender dog with greater agility and makes are far better herding dog because of it. Then, here in America, they're bred largely for their looks and the protectivness is being bred out of them. Bred for the original conformation, these are excellent protection dogs. These are definetly not the dogs for everyone because they do require a significant amount of control on your part. For myself, I'd rather have a dog that will attack before I get attacked or will defend my property with its life. Just like snakes, it's all personal preference.

Enjoy

The brindle one's a Pit, right? Pretty dogs, the fawn one is in an adorable position.

our litter of american bulldogs

I just want to reach into my screen and pick one up! Dogs rule!!
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Rob Talkington

It was awhile ago the last time I talked to him about it (back when he was still into tegus), but I believe Jeff has a Bullmastiff--he was just in the yard at the time of theft.

I highly recommend them--they are pricey, but great protection with a very sweet and stable disposition. Great with kids too.

A bullmastiff saved my house from getting robbed a few years ago. The thieves broke into the bedroom window and my dog must have rushed them because I came home to the bedroom door broken (with big dog claw marks), the window broken, but nothing taken--my guess they slammed to door to the bedroom and got back out that window asap while Jack was busy breaking down the door to get to them.

And they are sooooo cool looking

dana

Well, if he has one and it allowed his property to be stolen...it's completely worthless as a protection dog. It might be the best pet in the world, but it's worthless as a protection dog. This is exactly what a breeder of true Rotties told me once after I told him that the purebred dam to my Rott/Pit mix was stolen with the rest of her litter. He then told me that my mix was worthless as protection. He's a great alarm dog because he'll bark at anything, but he's actually allowed complete strangers in my backyard...and even licked their hands. Completely useless as a protection dog but I love him no less for it. An ethically bred Rott will cost around $2-3k, so they aren't cheap either. Pretty much any large dog will scare an intruder with their barking and other ravings. But most of them will also still allow friends into "restricted" areas without the owner present. I don't have a lot of knowledge about Bulls but I seem to remember that aggression is not one of their strong traits. Neo's would be better for a mastiff that's aggressive and are larger than Bulls, too.

Well, regardless of what the breeder trying to sell you an animal said, ANY GUARD DOG, that is RESTRAINED in an area that doesn't allow them access to where the criminal is at, is NOT going to be able to stop any criminal event from happening. The breed matters not if the dog is pinned up in the backyard, and has ZERO access into the house where the robbery is going on. As far as breeds go, most any dog can be effective against intruders, and some mix breeds are better overall dogs than pure breeds. You have to consider the fact that people do have friends, family, and especially CHILDREN, with other children as their friends. One thing I can say for sure, there is no dog that is going to send out a silent alarm to the police department letting them know your house is being broken into. Dogs can be taken out of the picture in many ways, as can alarm systems for that matter. I do think an alarm system is just as valuable, if not more so, than a dog. The combination of the two even better. Either way, nothing is guaranteed, and what happens to people and their homes is a terrible thing. Take care!

Paul

Well, from a lot of personal experience (read: stupidity from my youth) I can say that criminals will not entertain the thought of entering a yard/house with a large and protective dog. A dog certainly won't send a signal to the police, but it won't take anywhere between 15-45 minutes for the dog to do something about the problem. Used together, however, they are a very effective deterant to crime. Properly trained protection dogs are more than capable of staying inside the house while you're away. And many breeds are very safe around children, again, when proplerly trained. It takes a responsible owner for a protection breed. And I know I'd rather have a dog that will inflict actual harm on a intruder over a dog that will carry on and back down, to protect that large of an investment. Granted, I am biased towards Rott's, but there's a good reason for it. Next to the Caucasion, that I'm newly aware of, they're the best all around protection dog you can own.

And you are correct, if someone wants your stuff or your life badly enough...they'll find a way to take it. But that's no reason to not protect yourself, your family and your investments. IMHO.

Bullmastiffs are great dogs. We have a 9 month old 95 pounder currently! She is awesome, minus the fact that she ate our wall! And she has been in obedience classes for months...a must especially for a big dog!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...

One half of my security system...he one-third rottwieller

>>One half of my security system...he one-third rottwieller
>>
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Rob Talkington

np.

I dont care what anyone says these doys are the TRUTH......I have one thats turning 2 this April.....sweet as candy to the family......Anyone else that comes into the house is in for the biggest beat down of their lives......

dogs are a Ball Pythons best friend also...

Raul

Worst protection dog evAr. The history of the breed is such that any dog that was man aggressive was instantly destroyed. It was common custom for people to wash eachother's dogs before a fight to make sure there were no poisons or other nasties in the coat and the ref had to be able to stick his hand into the middle of the fight to pull out a fanged lip or ear. And Pit that displays man aggression is not a true Pit or Staffordshire.

I beg to differ..... I feel that if you train any dog to be aggresive then he will be. My dog doesnt like strangers in the house it bothers him....... if you see him out in the street and you pet him he loves you to death but if you come in the house and he will maul you to death..... If I tell him you are ok then he goes back to loving you again....doesnt like other dogs cause a big dog bit him when he was a pup....only problem I have with him is that I cant ever bring him around other dogs... everything else about him makes him the best gaurd dog evAr.......

Raul

I believe you should do a little research about your dog's breed. They are not man aggressive. You can make them, if you spend thousands of dollars to do so. But for that amount of money you could have easily purchased a dog that was bred for protection, not dog fighting. The American Pit Bull Terrier and/or the Staffordshire Terrier were bred specifically for the purpose of dog fighting and none other. The reason they have such a short coat, so little lose skin, such tight flews, cropped ears and the locking jaw is for dog fighting. It's the same for the Bulldog who's nose is set high up on its muzzle for bull fighting. These traits were bred into the bred by selective breeding. As I said before, any man agressive Pit was destroyed instantly so it wasn't a harm to other handlers/ref's and so it couldn't reproduce the man aggressive trait. The mere fact that a Pit will clobber a stranger with affection means that they're terrible protection dogs. Protection dogs are very suspicious of strangers and are extremely aloof with them. A protection dog will sniff your friend, that it doesn't already know, then go lay in a corner and keep a close on him/her.

Again, I mean you no disrespect and I love the breed myself. Heck, I have a Rott/Pit mix myself. He just turned eight last month so I've had a lot of time with him. The only thing that makes him as protective as he is, is the Rott in him. He's protective of my girlfriend and myself but will let anyone into my yard. My Rott, on the other hand, didn't like anybody other than his "pack" and wouldn't let anybody into my yard. The mix will just bark you to death. The Rott would watch and wait until you got too close and then would turn his entire 90lbs. into pissed-off dog mode. My mix will run up and down the fence barking. My Rott would try to break the fence down by bouncing off of it and barked with such power that it actually lifted his front feet off the ground...a trait of the breed. Some dogs are just better for protection than others. For instance, a Golden Retriever will never be a protection dog. While it might bite someone after they've already attacked or killed you, it serves no real purpose for protection. I have several books on both breeds and have done a tremendous amount of research on both of them, since I own(ed) both of them. It's like your Ball, you want to know as much as possible about its why's and wherefor's so you can be the best owner possible. Do some research on your breed, you'll be amazed all of the history behind it.

None taken.......But you are still wrong in my opinion.....My dog is a great gaurd dog......He barks so hard that his front legs come off the ground also......maybe he is confused????? I know why pit bulls were bred.....My uncle breeds Presas back in Spain......so trust me I know.....Im just saying that MY dog is this way...... When I got him I had no intent of using him as a gaurd dog......he decided that fate on his own .......I actually got him some obedience training by a retired K-9 trainer.....he said it was strange also......when I told him over the phone he told me that he didnt buy it.....but when he tried to come in the house he understood.....he thought that my dog was going to be all bluff and that he would just bark at you and thats that.....wrong.... he charges.....again I not underestimating your knowledge of dogs.....you seem very educated on the subject. I know that a Rotti is a gaurd dog and that a pit is a fighter......but here is the streets of NYC I have seen Rottis that fight dogs and pits that gaurd people......

Raul

Ah, I see the problem. I'm not refering to guard dogs, I'm refering to protection dogs. There actually is a difference. Guard dogs will bark and carry on, but a protection dog will do something about the situation. A Pit will bark its head off, but if it's human aggressive it is of an unsound temperment for the breed. That's what I meant in my original reply. I have no doubt that people are using Pits for protection purposes, a lot of those same people are going to be very angry with their dog when it allows them to be harmed or licks a burgler to death. The Pit, much like the Rott, suffers greatly from bad and/or unethical breeding. This leads to unpredictable dogs. Too many people put all of their faith into a dog that appears to be protective, only to find out that it's actually fearful or just not as protective as they believed. These cases have been well documented with protection trainers nation wide. Then there's the fact that a 45lbs. dog just won't be anywhere near as effective as a 90lbs. dog in protecting you. And like I said, the mere fact that your dog isn't suspicious and distrusting of strangers means it's not a good protection dog.

This isn't to say that he isn't a great pet and guard dog, but Pit Bulls are not good choices for protection work. That's why the trainer you refered to had to see it for himself. He was shocked because properly bred a Pit isn't supposed to display that level of aggression. Thank you, I try to be as knowledgeable as possible about the animals I own and intend on owning. I've done a tremendous amount of research about this breed and, as I already said, I've had my Rott/Pit mix for eight years so I've a lot of experience with the temperment. If someone is a real threath he'll do something, just like any dog that loves its master, but that doesn't mean he's a good protection dog. From the time that I've spent with both breeds, his actual protective responses are very Rottweiler-like and his social skills are very Pit-like. He likes most people, but is distrusting of a lot of people too. You really do need to spend the time, yourself, reading and learning as much as you can about your dog...you'll both be far more happy.

Here are some quotes and a link for you. Please read this page and the rest of the site, you're going to be very suprised and you owe it to your dog.

"Aggression towards humans should be viewed as a serious fault."

"Because the Pit Bull is generally such a people-friendly breed, they often make poor guards of property. Many specimens of the breed will allow strangers to enter the home or yard without a fuss, whether the owner is present or not. As a guardian of his human, however, the Pit Bull is quite willing and able to intercept an attack. The breed is credited with having exceptional judgement and will react only to real threats. Because of the Pit Bull’s generally poor guarding instincts and natural inclination to protect his owner if need be, it is best to stay away from any sort of guard or protection dog training. A good dog can be ruined quite easily, making for a wary, untrusting animal that may become a danger to humans. Do not try to make the Pit Bull into something he is not. If a serious guard or attack dog is what you desire, it is best to look to one of the breeds that have been specifically created for that type of work."

http://www.realpitbull.com/agg.html

Whatever you say man......like I said before I know that they were not bred to protect.....I know that they destroyed dogs that were man agressive........I know that a 45lbs (55 in my case) dog is not the same as a 90 lbs dog....All I am saying is that MY dog is very protective of the house........I have been around enough dogs in my life to know all these things.....I grew up in a house that had 10-15 at any given time and for different reasons.....some where herders others were hunters and others were protectors. I have seem pointers that love to herd cattle and Collies that loved to go rabbit hunting.....We forget sometimes that dogs have a way of thinking that is similar to ours....... They can actually enjoy doing other things that they were not bred to do...... My dog loves to protect the house and he will bite you if you come in...thats the bottom line....I am sure that somewhere out there there is a Rotti that could care less who comes into the house......Ive seen it in a Doverman...and many people use them to protect..... I am enjoying this conversation but we must remember that this is a ball python forum lol.....if you want to reply please feel free to email me....but we need to stop posting on here man lol.

Raul

I love animals. Really. With the exception of Pits. I think they look great, I have a boxer, which is similar, but IMHO they should be wiped from the face of the earth. I don't think we should go around killing peoples pets mind you...I just mean that they should not be bred any longer. One less man made bred of animal on the planet won't hurt...Too many of them turn psycho later in life and injure people. The blood has been tainted too often (by less than honest folks who tend to flok to this breed anyway) to breed the aggression out of them. You can argue if you want, but the numbers don't lie. Stitstics show that something like 2 % of Pits will end up biting their owners at some point. Much less other people. the next on the list was I think Rott's which were less than 1%. I don't care if yours is a sweetie pie...there is a decent chance that one day it will bite, and seriously injure someone. Its stupid to own them. Liability for one thing. You own a pit and it bites someone, you lose in court every time. Period. Even if the guy deserved it. Fact of life. I say let them all die of old age and puppyless.

T~

A little bit of a crazy rant but you got it....

Raul

My last reply.

If that is the case, your dog is of unsound temperment and is a danger to society. Your examples were also dogs of unsound temperment, such as a Rott with no desire to protect. You might have grown up with 150 dogs, but did you take the time to properly research any of them? I know plenty of people who've owned several dogs, who still don't know anything about dog behavior. Have you taken the time to research your current dog? If you're going to own an APBT, you really have to be responsible enough to learn. Again, no disrespect intended.

How do you research????? You read a book that someone wrote and you swallowed what they observed.......I will make my own observations and do my own research...... you can keep researching your "facts" and breed "standards".....

I am more responsible than you can ever imagine....I did my "research" and treat my dog with the love and respect he deserves..... Dont question that cause you dont know me..... You think that the way you a raising your dog is the right way????? Thats great!!!!! But it seems that you take what dogs were bred to do 1000 years ago a bit too seriously....... They dont have to do these things today.....if that were the case then Rottis should still be fighting lions and tigers.....and I should be out fighting my dog cause thats what he was "bred" to do....Maybe your dog is a danger to society since it thinks that strangers both in and out the house are the enemy....Like I said before dont judge me or my dog...... you dont know us......

Think a little man
Raul

You are exactly the kind of owner that the responsible owners of aggressive dogs hate. Why don't you contact the UKC for the APBT or the AKC for the AmStaff? Why don't you contact breeders that breed for the traits the dogs are supposed to have? They'll all tell you the exact same thing, a human aggressive Pit is a danger because its temperment is unpredictable. Contrary to popular belief, there are facts to dog behavior and the way certain breed are supposed to act. I've tried to be informative, polite and to help you make yourself a more responsbile owner for an APBT.

Don't disregard what real breeders say because you want a status symbol for a dog.

The guy that breeds 90lbs pits is a "real" breeder....but you dont like him cause he is breeding "freak" dogs at 90lbs......so you say that he isnt a real breeder...

Again what you are saying is that my dog should be out fighting other dogs cause that what they were "bred" to do.....

Ok man whatever.....status???? I adoted my pit....I didnt get him to show off.... I got him cause I love Presas and didnt want such a big dog..... here is a little background on them....remember I grew up around these dogs....

THE PRESA BACKGROUND AND HISTORY
From the Canary Islands off the southwestern coast of Spain, the Perro de Presa Canario, or Presa Canario is a result of the cross breeding from the (Bordino) Mujaro-native to the Islands, the Mastiff of England, and the Olde English Bulldog. This is a very impressive, unbelievably powerful, highly intelligent, instinctually protective, incessantly loyal and hard working breed. They are a very majestic animal which demonstrate many unique character traits and possesses a prowess strikingly similar to a large wild feline.

At one time, these animals were bred for fighting in Spain, but today they are desired primarily as family companions and / or guardians. The Presa can also be an impeccable protection dog when trained and handled properly. Simultaneously, the Presa is friendly, playful and protective. The Presa Canario is an all around outstanding pet.

Got that?????? companions and/ or guardians...but they were bred to be fighters....so I guess we should kill them all.....I know they are not pits but they were bred for the same reasons.....I KNOW that pits are not Guard dogs but my dog DOESNT LIKE STRANGERS IN THE HOUSE....Hard to swallow????? To bad it is what it is....he listens to me and doesnt attack anyone cause I know how to handle dogs......

You are bright well educated and full of knowledge....But Just because a bog was bred for a certain trait doesnt mean thats all it can do......period!

Raul

You know I've seen pretty big pits before....I'm a big dogfancy girl! LOL here is a link http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/males/lobo.html

There are also mastiff style rotts that are upwards of 150 lbs.

So don't characterize a breeds protection ability by its size...otherwise an english mastiff or great dane would be a highly noted guard dog!
-----
*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...

Again, those dogs do not coform to the breed standard. Why do I harp on the breed standard so much? Because with a breed standard there were would be far more dog with unsound temperments, ranging from fear biter to mindlessly aggressive...for all breeds. There's a reason why a bird dog has the traits it has, including it's size. Rottweilers that are 150lbs. and Pits that are 90lbs. are grossly oversized, however pretty or impressive. The people who developed these breeds had a specific goal in mind when producing them. Take the Doberman for example, Louis Doberman knew exactly what he wanted out of the breed he was creating. He selectively chose the traits and genes he wanted, much like Ball Python morphs, to get his vision. Now, because too many people have strayed from the breed standard for the Doberman Pincher, it's almost impossible to find a dog that has the correct temperment. Most are extremely fearful and become fear biters, which is a danger to society. And on the flip side, it's extremely easy to find a great show quality Doberman. The breed standard was ignored and the breed was ruined.

This is where ethical breeding comes into play. You don't breed dogs that are too large, too aggressive, too cowardly, too anything they're not supposed to be by the original breed standard. Rott's arent' supposed to be over 110lbs. and Pits aren't supposed to be over 60lbs.. This doesn't mean these dogs don't exsist, but they are not accurate representatives of their breed. Very few dogs are supposed to be man aggressive. Dominance aggression is something completely different, and is usually the owners fault...unless you have a social climber or dog that was born Alpha.

Okay, working in the animal control field, let me just tell you this. There ARE 100% PEOPLE AGGRESSIVE PITBULLS in this world. There are pits that I have seperated while fighting bare handed because they were properly trained pit dogs that did not show human aggression(as far as known). Now, you read books and state facts, is it not a fact that people are unethical breeders??? Combine this with many other factors, and what a breed is known for 100 years ago is not always what the breed sticks to in present day. If you refuse to think there are people aggressive pitbulls in the world, try taking a stroll through the South side of almost any large city, and get back with us on the subject. Come on already and get real, ANY dog can be people aggressive, even a tiny little chihuahua-LOL! Mine will tear your ankle off I promise! LMAO! And "Loyalty" is a trait of Rottweilers, take a guess at how many LOYAL rotties have turned on their owners and/or children, even ones that were not mistreated. There is records of these incidences, what is written in books regarding breeds can not be held to the letter. Just as people, dogs have different attitudes regardless of breed/background. Take care!

Paul

Well, working with dog trainers I can say that your knowledge of dog behavior is a little off. The "100% PEOPLE AGGRESSIVE PITBULLS" are the direct result of unethical breeding. If people would stop buying from those people, there wouldn't be so many of the dogs around. It's not that hard to find a good breeder who breeds for the sound temperment the dogs are supposed to have. Actually, I used to live on the West Side (stupidity of my youth), so I'm intimately familiar with the setting. And now that I'm out, strolls are out of the question. I am very real about my dogs. I have done a tremendous amount of research and have a lot of first hand experience, maybe not as much as you but mine is breed specific. And the major breed happens to be prone to dominance problems, the Rottweiler. This is why people get bit by otherwise sound dogs. They willing, and usually unknowingly, allow their Rott to accept the position of Alpha in the family "pack", much like your Chihuahua has. This is done through simple things like letting the dog go through the door before you, letting it sleep on the couch/bed, constantly showering the dog with affection, feeding from the table or before the humans eat. These are things the Alpha gets. The Alpha eats first, gets the most affection, gets the best bed, always leads the way, etc.. That's why so many small dogs are nippy and bite, in fact small dogs are far more likely to bite than large dogs. The key is research, taking the time to find and buy from an ethical breeder, proper socialization and proper training. In short, being a responsible dog owner. As someone who works in the animal control field you should be very familiar with the saying "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners".

Okay, working in the animal control field, let me just tell you this. There ARE 100% PEOPLE AGGRESSIVE PITBULLS in this world. There are pits that I have seperated while fighting bare handed because they were properly trained pit dogs that did not show human aggression(as far as known). Now, you read books and state facts, is it not a fact that people are unethical breeders??? Combine this with many other factors, and what a breed is known for 100 years ago is not always what the breed sticks to in present day. If you refuse to think there are people aggressive pitbulls in the world, try taking a stroll through the South side of almost any large city, and get back with us on the subject. Come on already and get real, ANY dog can be people aggressive, even a tiny little chihuahua-LOL! Mine will tear your ankle off I promise! LMAO! And "Loyalty" is a trait of Rottweilers, take a guess at how many LOYAL rotties have turned on their owners and/or children, even ones that were not mistreated. There is records of these incidences, what is written in books regarding breeds can not be held to the letter. Just as people, dogs have different attitudes regardless of breed/background. Take care!

"there are no bad dogs, only bad owners".

Not true. You know it. So why would you say such an erroneous thing? Your setting yourself up. There are bad kids from good households...so absolutely, there can be, and are, bad dogs from good owners. Pit's more so than any other breed. For that fact alone, they need to all be sterilized. Hey, I am sure you love your dog, but that doesn't make the statistics not apply to it. Sorry, the breed is unsalvagably tainted with aggression. There is no other breed even close to the number of attacks on humans. Hey, if you have to have a liscense to own them, like Hot Herps, then let the breed live on, thats responsible...unless you willing to work to get the liscense, you shouldn't get the animal. Makes sense to me.

T~

They regard both the topics of Dominance in dogs and the how to become Alpha for your family "pack". With the exception of genetically flawed dogs, there are no bad dogs. It's just like getting bit by your python, it's the owner's fault in 99.99% of the cases.

Please read these, you will be suprised. They are in reference to Rottweilers, but that shouldn't make that big a difference since Rotts are supposed to be human aggressive and Pits are not. These two posts were made by professional dog trainers who deal with highly aggressive dogs. I'm also going to incluce the same link I gave to Raul, that he didn't seem to like very much.

Dominance Explained - http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9263
Becoming Alpha - http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21136
Pit Bull Temperment - http://www.realpitbull.com/agg.html

Again, please read these. What you know to be true, is in fact, incorrect. You have to understand why a dog bites its owner. Those links will help you to understand dog behavior. With Pits, most owners treat them like a king. The lavish affection on it, let it sleep on the bed and/or couch, go out the door first, etc.. Only Alpha dogs get these privledges and the Alpha is in charge. Domestic dogs still need a pack structure in order to be truly happy. Most breeds, including Pits, don't want to be the Alpha, they want you to be Alpha...and you're supposed to be. Those links will explain all of this greater detail, so please don't just take my word for it or think that I'm blowing hot air. You have your statistics and this is the knowledge of why those statistics exsist. Please read those links before you recommend genocide on an entire breed, again.

Dex, your pretty much just an ignorant book worm. Okay, trainers would prove to me that my knowledge of pits as a breed are wrong? And there is no such thing as human aggressive pits. Okay, do you think a pit could be TRAINED, BY A TRAINER to be people aggressive? And you think my chihuahua thinks it the ALPHA in my house??? LMFAO...I walk into the room, he moves. I raise my voice, he shakes, I clap my hands together he runs. Do you really think this 5lb. dog thinks he runs my house? Here's a different theory. If he doesn't know you, he doesn't like you, and if you come into his territory, which would be my house whether he is alpha omega or cerwin vega he'll bite your a$$. I guess that means he is no different than your well TRAINED rott right? If you disagree, then you've proven your point wrong....how can you be the Alpha if your dog is still protective over his home? Shouldn't he view that as YOUR job? You know you can test dogs to see if they are in fact protecting YOU or THEMSELVES???? You'd be surprised to find how many dogs will be actually aggressive on their OWN behalf, and not actually the owners, though it may appear that way at first glance since the owner is either in the house, or on the other end of the leash. Tie that same dog to a tree in the middle of nowhere with the owner far gone, and some will still attack...who are they guarding then? Your beloved Rotts, are a joke and one of the biggest victims of unethical breeding. The rott I mentioned in the previous post had all aspects of training, that should suffice to have a protective dog in your home of ANY PURE OR CROSS BREED MUTT...NOT A KILLER! Take care, Dex...there is such a thing as Dog forums you should further inspect. See ya!

Paul

Pitbull, american staffordshire terrier, bull staffordshire terrier, take your pick...as you stated these dogs should not be aggressive towards people, but they are trained and bred to act that way. You are absolutely correct in that a man-aggressive pitbull was euthanized when pit fighting was legal, and the breed was in development. However, many people abuse and attack these dogs in order to develop a fight response. Some people just pick the most aggressive pits and breed them. Either way irresponsible people breeding pits makes a highly dangerous animal. Pitbulls are amazing dogs, and I wish that they were not treated as status symbols, but as pets!

And rotts were bred mainly for droving and pulling carts...they were not bred initially for protection as dobermans were!
-----
*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...

I don't think you have an accurate understanding of why Pits fight. A Pit doesn't have to be trained to fight, because it was bred for it. Fighting is in their genetic makeup. The only training a dog goes threw before a fight is the same kind of training a boxer goes through. The healthier, stronger and more well-fed a dog is, the better its chances in the ring. And the trait of not being human aggressive is still very valid in dog fighting today. Most people who fight won't even put their dog against anything other than a Pit and will try to pick-up a game dog, that's losing, before it dies. There is still a tremendous amount of injury, but a human aggressive dog still is of no use in the "sport"...and I do use that term lightly. And yes, I do realize that there are people who will still just throw a dog into a pit and not care about anything other than the bet. But those people are not the rule. The unethical breeding for a status symbol dog is what's ruining the temperment, not beating or training to be aggressive. The breed's only been around for 200 years and dog fighting was only recently made illegal, comparatively speaking. They are also slow to mature, so a dog might not show its true dog aggression until it's three years old...adding even more to the value of the dog for the trainer. They are great dogs, very loveable, extremely funny to watch, but they are also genetically predispositioned to dog aggression. If more people took the time to truly understand Pits, or whatever their particular breed is, and to learn about dog behavior there wouldn't be so many problems with Pits. But I went into that in another reply to you...I believe.

The Rottweiler was actually a war dog used by the Roman Legion, but to "earn their keep" they drove the cattle for the soldeirs to eat. During the conquests, the dogs were bred with several mountain dogs on the way to Germany and finally settling in the town of Rottweil. Local butchers used them as drovers and protection dogs on the way to and from market, because those were their two best traits. Here, the breed was refined into what it is known for today, with quality dogs of proper temperment. Louis Doberman definetly bred a dog that meant, first and foremost, for protection but the Rottweiler is part of its genetic makeup. What's happened to those dogs is truly a shame, it's so hard to find one that's actually a working dog anymore. Both breeds excelled at gaurd duty, that's why Germany used both of them.

Pitbull, american staffordshire terrier, bull staffordshire terrier, take your pick...as you stated these dogs should not be aggressive towards people, but they are trained and bred to act that way. You are absolutely correct in that a man-aggressive pitbull was euthanized when pit fighting was legal, and the breed was in development. However, many people abuse and attack these dogs in order to develop a fight response. Some people just pick the most aggressive pits and breed them. Either way irresponsible people breeding pits makes a highly dangerous animal. Pitbulls are amazing dogs, and I wish that they were not treated as status symbols, but as pets!

And rotts were bred mainly for droving and pulling carts...they were not bred initially for protection as dobermans were!

I agree with a guard dog. Mine is not a "real" guard dog but if you have ever had to move a sleeping 160 pound St. Bernard from in front of the door it is just not worth the trouble. just kidding my saint is great he lets me know when anyone at all is around and his bark is enough for most not to come close. anyway good luck Jeff and hope all is well soon.

not sure if this was covered yet, I didn't read all the posts. but has anyone looked into the micro chips that can be put into pets, kind of like low jack. do they work for snakes? and how much are they? I am going to get an albino soon and I would be interested in this concept.

np

get the bastards who did this