Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK,

That was getting pretty ridiculous! We actually spiraled off the page.

I admit I don't know everything about keeping leos. I have however been to Afghanistan, Iraq, and was hunting scuds on the Iranian border in '90. The terrain, and I have stated this before is a sand clay mix. There is a layer of reddish/grey sand, or what I call dust on top. Then there is the rock ingredient which permeates all the layers and is most abundant. Take a look at the pictures of Mars and you can get a good idea of what I'm talking about, or maybe I will post some pictures later. There is sand in the soil, but there is sand in our soil as well. It's not like sand at the beach, or sand in the deserts of Saudi Arabia, or sand like the 3 inch layers of calci sand in some peoples aquariums. Like I said I call it dust. It is very hard soil, so hard that we couldn't dig night defensive positions, so we brought in back hoes to help us. (This was when we were in the rear area I might add)We broke two back hoes and barely got 3 feet down. We finally resorted to using C-4 shape charges. I hope I have cleared up the environment where these animals live.

The bottom line is this; does the sand look good? Yes. Has it been known to cause impaction? Yes. Do you want to risk the life of your pet, even if it was a minimal risk? No. Is it your decision? Yes. Also it has been stated by some very knowledgeable people in this forum that calci sand counteracts the digestive juices in the leos stomach, there by stopping or slowing its digestive process, which can lead to serious complications and even death. Do you want to risk it. There are a variety of other substrates out there, that pose no risk to the health of your pet. Their life is in your hands, what would you want them to do were the roles reversed?
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LEOs: 6.9.0
1.3 High Yellows-Barney,Betty,?,?
2.0 Hypo Tangerines-Bam-bam,Rex
0.3 SHCT's -Journey,Wiggy,Lil'bit
1.0 Rescued Normals -Shleprock
1.3Tremper Albinos Mr.Slate,?,?,?
1.0 Tang Tremp Albino - Rocky

I did mention the dust and fineness somewhere in that thread down there...I'm not even gonna try to find it...lol I mentioned that it probably is finer than anything commercially available here, and that that's probably one of the reasons captive leos get impacted with sand. It's also why I keep a close eye on the behavior and stool of the 2 leos I have in my 20L that's ~1/6 sand.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Thanks Tim!!!! There are other resources to confirm what you just said... anyone can go to the GGA (Global Gecko Association) and inquire about some of the many field studies that have been done in the wild where leos are endogenous... like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

I think many people would also be surprised to know that there are actually several different varieties of Leopard Geckos in those regions:
Eublepharis afghanicus
Eublepharis turkmenicus
Eublepharis angramainyus
AND
Eublepharis macularius

BTW, there are NO Acheta domestica in thoses areas, either! LOL!
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

At least I learned something

So I wonder what they eat in their natural environment?

Jack
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

That sand found in a pet store or in home depot is fine for leopard geckos???? Do you keep your leos on sand????? Do you sell animals that have been kept on sand????? I am just asking...... Not trying to be an ASS.......

I did. As a matter of fact I kept my Leos on sand for, I'd say 8 to 9 years before I decided to place them onto paper towels. All of the animals I had, never once got impacted, but many other people on this forum have had serious problems with sand.. I should add that all my animals were being fed dusted crickets as well as dusted mealworms... So they had all the calcium and vitamin fixings that they needed... So they probably never had the urge to consume their substrate.

I've used the following sands and had great results. If I didn't have so many gex at the moment, I'd have probably kept them on sand. Kind of a weird fact that I noticed after placing them on paper towel was that they began going through more dry sheds (bad hairdays) then they ever experienced on the sand. Even with the forest bedding in their hide/laying boxes some of my animals have a hard time shedding. I think it had something to do with the humidity (low levels) that was being kept in the sand after mistings...

Well, heres the sand(s) that I used...

1. Repti-Sand (Zoomed) - I really liked how this brand kept the
moisture in the hide and laying chambers...

2. Bone Aid (T-Rex) - I thought this was a pretty good sand, but
I hated the way that it would form puddles when the water got
spilled on the bedding...

3. Jurassic Sand - A pretty old sand, almost identical to Repti-
Sand in all ways..

Again, I'm not saying that sand is the way to go, but in all honesty I've never had a problem with it. Some geckos WILL eat the sand like theres no tomorrow, while others wont. I think its just a matter of whether or not your gecko will have the urge, and luckily, mine never did...

I have 2 leos with in a tank that is 1/6 sand...all that I've seen them do there is go to the bathroom and sort of try to climb the glass. I probably am going to try to cover most of it up with rocks except for a little corner for them to go to the bathroom and maybe a little space between rocks...they seem to like using the sand as their bathroom. I haven't ever sold any...and when I do, they will not have been kept on any sand. I never did recommend the use of sand to anyone...I just suggested that I don't think its unsafe to use a small amount of it in a tank. Now that I thought about it (and just did today...), it probably isn't very safe to use even fine sand...unless it is as fine as or close to the sand/dust in thier natural habitat. I hadn't even thought about grain size until earlier today when I mentioned it in that one thread. I still don't think its all that unsafe to use a very small amount though, as long as the leo/s aren't observed licking it and there's none in thier stool (even if most of it remained in the digestive tract some is bound to make it out and be visible...).
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Hi Christina,

I just wanted you to know, and I have asked this question a while ago, because I too used sand before I had a long hard look at it. I also asked some leo experts on here. I thought of doing what you were talking about, using sand for a defectorium. It sounds great, looks good, not real hard to clean(at least what you can see). It's what you can't see that could pose the problem. Bacteria can persist in the sand and cause problems. This is what I have noticed is a major problem with captive reptiles. They are limited to where they can range, in the wild they don't live next to their defectorium, and nature takes care of there feces. In captivity one little bug can multiply and keep invading the animals system. In the wild they can fight off the bug because they move away from it, In captivity they depend on us, sand that looks clean to us might reveal something different under the microscope.

Consider me a human Leopard Gecko. Whatever all those wars over there left in the sand/dust, has entered my system and effected my body (Persian Gulf Syndrome), and 100's of others. We didn't see it coming and some say it isn't real, but just try to give blood, and one of the first questions they ask is were you in the Gulf War. If so you can not give blood. I guess what I'm trying to say "again" is why risk it?
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LEOs: 6.9.0
1.3 High Yellows-Barney,Betty,?,?
2.0 Hypo Tangerines-Bam-bam,Rex
0.3 SHCT's -Journey,Wiggy,Lil'bit
1.0 Rescued Normals -Shleprock
1.3Tremper Albinos Mr.Slate,?,?,?
1.0 Tang Tremp Albino - Rocky

Very, very GREAT point about the bacteria and such living in the sand. Get this, about 3 months ago all of us employees had a class that was hosted by none other then the owner of one of the many breeders/distributors that supply the store(s) with their baby leopard geckos. He told us something that was way off the charts, or should I say strange, in the fact that I couldn't understand how this could have possibly been...

We were told that by keeping leopard geckos on calci-sand, we are helping out any that could be infected with anykind of an internal parasite... Supposedly, the calcium inside the sand acts like a kind of a sanitizer in the way that it kills the parasite that is exposed once the animal goes to the bathroom. We were then told that the sand would make it so the other geckos weren't exposed to whatever was infecting the sick lizard(s)... The sand is supposed to "quarantine" the parasite and kill it before it can cause any harm..

With all do respect I think that this was a bunch of BS, and I really dont understand how this could have ever been possible. If you ask me the sand would keep the parasite alive, because it'd be able to stamp a bit moisture then on the paper towel, thus having the possiblity to infect other geckos before they could be removed...

Has anyone else ever heard this? Or do you think its as weird as I do??

Richie

I don't know about all that stuff...but I do know that I don't intend to keep the same sand in the tank for months on end or anything...when I change the sand that's in there now I may not even replace it with more sand. Also, the area of sand is extremely minimal in the 20L, and there is plenty of space to be nowhere near it.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

The sand in that corner only takes up about 9 sq in of surface space now, plus the sand around the rocks.

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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

I've never heard of it, but actually they idea that sand may act as a kind of intestinal scrub brush to remove or control #'s of parasites does not seem wholly beyond the realm of possibility to me. It does also not seem beyond the realm of possibility that an animal with parasites might be more inclined to eat sand. If they managed to impact themselves and die faster, that also might have the effect of removing them from uninfected animals faster...
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

that does make sense...I wonder if that's at all true...
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner. What I said was that there are many field studies that confirm what Tim said... that the terrain where the several species of Leopard Geckos are found is hard-pack clay, with very dusty type dirt and large, rocky outcroppings.

As far as my geckos and the ones I sell... no, I do not use sand as a substrate.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Shuler06, have you seen even a single leopard gecko in the places you describe? Or even an insect suitable for consumption by a leo? I doubt it so because such and environment would be unfit for a leo or even a scorpion to live in.

Now, please drop this bloody argument. Christina, I understand that you enjoy your plods of sand in with your leos, however please do not allow your stubbornness to blind novice keepers about the dangers of using sand.

If their leos get impacted because they heard from this forum that sand is okay it will be the entire forum that gets blamed, not just you. There is no argument against what has been observed:

sand increases the possibility of impaction, therefore sand is dangerous, period, end of argument. Yet people continue to use sand.

not wearing a seatbelt increases your chance of death, therefore you will get fined if you do not wear your seatbelt, end of argument. Yet people continue to not wear their seatbelts.

alcohol impairs you judgement, yes, it impairs you judgement, end of argument. Yet people continue to drink and drive.

you see what I mean? Inevitability... who will be unlucky today... and when it happens...

"ah, the eternal refrain of humanity... pleading ignorance, begging for mercy... 'please, help me, I don't understand'. "

Interesting that you use alcohol as an example...If you're careful with it and only drink...what is it, a glass of wine a day or smt like that?...It's actually good for you! Anyway...As far as the sand thing...The couple examples I cited somewhere in the superlong thread below about leo habitat match up pretty well with shuler's description...hard packed clay/soil with an extremely fine dusty sand layer on top and many rocks scattered throughout it. The descriptions I found were actually places where leos were observed living... Anyway...one thing I realized was that the "sand" in their natural habitat is likely more fine than anything we have comercially available, is therefore probably one of the problems with using sand. btw...I never recommended using sand...I've just stated my opinion that I think it can be safe if used carefully (just like alcohol...). There are a lot of people that insist on using sand...and I think it would be better if it's used in at least a fairly safe way than just covering the entire tank with sand... The only way I think its at all safe is if it comprises a very small portion of the tank, and no licking of the sand is observed or sand found in the stool. ...or if the leo is young and small. The only tank I have any sand in is a 20L in the living room of my 3-bedroom apartment where everyone can see it. I wanted it to look natural and attractive for that reason. The sand is only at the cool end of the tank covering less than a twelth of the tank floorspace. It really just serves as a potty area. I'd take it out...but my girls seem to like it, it looks good, and I really don't want to waste it. I honestly don't think it's unsafe...however if I saw them licking it or any sand in thier stool...I would immediately remove it. I very well may still remove it whenever it needs to be changed, however I haven't really thought about that yet.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

As a matter of fact I did see several lizards, scorpions are in over abundance as are beetles and flies. I even had a horned viper curl up with me one cold night. Oh and I survived in that environment for over 60 days with little more than the clothes on my back. As creatures of the earth go I think you wil find that we are the weak link when it comes to hardiness, thank God we have brains. Check the weather conditions in the areas that make up the leos natural habitat. I think you will find temperture fluctuations well in excess on the 79-80 cool side, and 88-90 degree hot side in your leo enclosures. Yet somehow they survive, not only that they breed too. I take my hat off to them, I wouldn't want to do it.
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LEOs: 6.9.0
1.3 High Yellows-Barney,Betty,?,?
2.0 Hypo Tangerines-Bam-bam,Rex
0.3 SHCT's -Journey,Wiggy,Lil'bit
1.0 Rescued Normals -Shleprock
1.3Tremper Albinos Mr.Slate,?,?,?
1.0 Tang Tremp Albino - Rocky

What makes you think if he does not see a leo that they are not there...that was a pointless comment. If he saw no leos it was probably because he was moving in daylight or the leos did not want to be seen. I still hold firm that most if not all impactions are due to insufficient husbandry. I know most owners don't want to admit that they have done something wrong and not the leos. It's not natural for a leo to lap up it is substate continually. If it does the owner needs to step back and look at what's missing from the husbandry. Often times it's poor temps, poor nutrition, or poor hydration. Sorry, but that the truth as I see it.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

Thats what I want to say, but I need to be alittle more nicer about it....... I guess on other forums people know me and do not get offended when I get strait to the point and do not sugar coat bad situations....... I do not think Stina is an idiot and I am sorry if she felt that is what I was getting at...... I asked the question above because I will NOT buy a single animal from a breeder that thinks sand is ok to use as a substrate....... Now about Stinas set up...... Although it looks very nice, that much sand can easily cause a problem...... You cant always watch your leos and you will not always see sand in its poop...... There are tiny little folds and hair like structures in a leos intestines that catch and hold onto sand grains...... Think of it as plaque building up in the circulartory system....... The little bit of sand it ingests will just keep building up being caught in the little folds and "hairs" and being glued or almost fused by the mucus membrane...... The food it eats will not be absorbed because of the "rock" lining on the intestinal wall causing the leo to virtually starv to death..... Still think its worth it???? And bad bacteria can multiply in days...... You can change it every couple of weeks and it will still not be bacteria free...... I think changing out paper towels every other day is a thousand times cleaner than scooping poop every day out of sand...... Oh I have a question I just thought of....... How do you check their poop for sand if they go to the bathroom on sand?????

I find it hard to believe that the microscopic pilli in the intestines are responsible for the retention of sand...sand is a hell of a lot bigger than pilli and would probably move past it no problem...although I do believe it would be no problem for it to get wedged in there, especially large pieces. How would they survive at all in the wild if the pilli of thier intestines collect sand and dust??? I'd think they'd be dead in a matter of months even if they didn't injest mouthfuls of sand as they'd be bound to swallow a lot of airborn dust particles...much closer in size to intestinal pilli than the grains of sand we have...
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Keep thinking that way...... Untill you, yourself cut open an impacted leo and actually know what you are looking at, you really have nothing to say about the subject...... Does anyone else doubt what I am saying is true???? Do you really have to contadict everything I say????? Especially when it has been proven????? Do you have a degree in bio????? I wish there was someone else that actually seen the inside of an impacted gecko in this forum...... You can doubt everything I say but it still wont make it safe to keep leos on sand...... Sorry for saying sorry about you thinking I thought you were an idiot because I am starting to think you are.......

I think what you said is way the hell off, and yes I do have a degree in biology with a minor in nutrition. I agree with stina, the villi(not pilli) are not the problem and niether is sand, it is the husbandry. Fortunatly, I never had to cut open a dead leo for impaction, as I never lost one to it. I kept my colony on every substrate imaginable over the years, The only reason I opt for papertowels is ease of maintance not fear of impaction. I still use a 50/50 mix of bed-a-beast and sand in my lay boxes with out ever a problem. The do ingest it, and they do pass it. This is because I provide proper temps, nutrition, and hydration at all times.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

thanks for backing me up!...
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

btw...I do not have a degree in biology, but I'm a sophmore animal sciences (prevet) major and have read or seen anything about animals I ever could growing up...so I'm not stupid, I know a hell of a lot more about this stuff than most other people would...and I'm almost positive that the villi do not grab hold of sand...thats just preposterous.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Thats why I asked...... You think it is not the case Aztec?????...... Thats fine, but you also think it is good to put leos on sand so guess I will never buy an animal from you....LOL...... Like I said there are breeders out here that think it is Ok to put leos on sand and there are people that have been keeping leos for less than a year that know better...... Like you have said yourself you have never cut open an impacted leo, so how do you know what is going on inside the track???? Like I said the ones cut open by me where not mine and the wall of the digestive system were lined with sand as well as blocked completely in some areas...... And almost all were adults that were kept on sand and 1 or two of them were from someone pretty well known for breeding leos...... (Out of respect I will not say who)....... So I am pretty sure the person has a pretty good grasp on captive care....... The person does not post on this board because of people that really never got their hands dirty that feel they know everything when they never really had to deal with anything but feeding their pets...... SO tell me something Mr Bio guy, Can you see the villa in leos or is it microscopic????? Make sure you know the answer befor you tell us all...... You do know if you are wrong I will be able to prove it....... I really do not feel like uploading necro pics so please answer correctly.....

Let's get something straight before I say anything else. A degree doesn't make anyone an authority. You were the one asking about degrees, as if it would make a difference. It's experience that matters in this case...How long did you say you have been keeping leos? Have you bred any yet? As for the leos that you cut open, I don't know how your friend was keeping them, so I can't say much about what you concluded was impaction. I do think it is rather ignorant to see that the gecko was impacted with sand and conclude that it must be the fact they were kept on sand. Could they have been ingesting the sand for a reason? Could something have been lacking in the husbandry? I have known many people in the past 14 years I've kept these geckos, that have kept and bred leos on sand substrates without any problems. I know many people I've sold leos to over the years that have also and still do keep them on sand without problems. Are they lucky or are they doing something different than others that have had impaction problems? Logically, to me at least, it seems it's not the sand that's the problem. The sand is a constant, the variables are the different aspects of husbandry. Could the real cause be one of those variables?...Not many people are willing to admit that they weren't "covering all bases", so it must have been the sand. The leo couldn't help but just eat it all. As for how big are the villi in leos?...who really cares...I would imagine they are small, and the microvilli even smaller. I mean do you have a degree in biology? Do you know a little about anatomy and physiology, Natural Selection and Punctuated Equilibrium? Does it really matter to the big picture of what this debate is all about? So you have taken the time to know just how big the villi in a leo are, and I have never cared to. Does that mean anything? There is a saying that I picked-up on the monitor forum..."the more you read, the less you breed". So I guess what it comes down to is that you know how big the intestinal villi in a leo are, and I have never lost a leo I kept on sand(many)from impaction.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

but before I'd call anyone 'bio guy' and try to make him sound like he doesn't know anything, I'd make sure to call it an intestinal tract and not track.
There are no cars racing on it.

you must know more about the insides of a leo more than I because I've never cut one apart. But I do know about the race cars.

by the way, I don't use sand either.

my $0.005
-----

The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

and I'd appreciate it if you would please call me Christina...only my friends and family call me Stina...
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

I call you what I see infront of me....... STINA>>>>>>>>>>>>

my name is in my sig...that's just as in front of you as I my sn...I realize that's what you were going by...but I'd prefer you not use it.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Tried to use earth and real grass in parts of a leo cage? Since they live on rock/shortgrass lands according to studies made.
I know it wont be easy,but I like the idea to try create a reallooking environment for my leos.

nalle... isn't that enclosure hard to clean?

What is it made out of? polysyrene and grout?

Yes it is hard to clean hehe but I dont mind the work.
And yes poly (5 to 6 inches thick) and concrete in 5 layers and then painted 5 layers too and varnished.

what is the substrate on the bottom of the tank?
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Its a red finegrained sand,0,01 -0,1 mm (cant convert to inch)
hardpacked.

lol...you didn't have to measure!...it just looked like some sort of bark or smt to me...which wouldn't have been good...lol It's a beautiful setup btw!
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Thank you -)
Forgot to say the tank is 180 Gallons and houses 1.2, so they got plenty of space,the digicam gave up tho so I cant post a fresher picture, got alot more live plants inthere now. The idea was to replace the sandareas with live grass if possible.

Keeping a gecko in captivity is unnatural. Feeding gecko's crickets is unnatural. An albino/patternless gecko is unnatural. Everything we do to these animals is unnatural.

If you want to be natural, why not let your geckos loose on an acre of land somewhere in Afghanistan and see how far it gets. It won't get too far, as it has never learned and may never learn how to survive in a "natural" environment.

Read that last sentence very carefully... our geckos will NOT survive in a natural environment. Think this through and the repercussions it brings about.

Want to try a small test? Feed your gecko a small scorpion (about the size that allows it to be eaten, as geckos in the wild do eat scorpions and it is a "natural" food source). Now I cannot say if gecko's are immune to scorpion venom, however, would this be a risk you would take to make it "natural" for your gecko? Would you risk the well being of your gecko, simply for the sake of being "natural" (I think in most cases it's because it's more "aesthetically pleasing" than natural, but that's a whole separate arguement)?

-Lemur 6

no one was argueing that sand is better b/c it is natural...the "naturalness" of it came up b/c people have said its not natural...that's secondary to the argument of whether using sand carefully is harmful. btw...the color morphs are perfectly natural...we didn't genetically engineer the geckos to look any different...we may have selectively bred them to bring out traits, and to proliferate recessive alleles...but that doesn't mean that those traits are unnatural... Albinos occur naturally...they just don't usually survive long in the wild b/c they're seen and caught more easily by prey. All genetic morphs, like albino and patternless, were originally caused by mutations...which again are perfectly natural...although normally they'd probably have been killed in the wild.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

"It won't get too far, as it has never learned and may never learn
how to survive in a "natural" environment."

"our geckos will NOT survive in a natural environment."

Are these factual statements? Does a leopard gecko "learn" how to eat, hide, flee from a predator, Court and mate? I didn't realize that just about any of the behaviours a leo displays in captivite was learned. If I release 100 2 month old CB leos into a range that has other wild leos in it, they will all perish? I would think they would have just as much a chance as wild born leos...Just because they were CB do they loose all there "hardwired" instincts. I mean this is the level there brains operate on, it doesn't matter if they were captive bred or not. They react to stimulus in a more primitive way than mammals. They either do or they don't, there is not much thought. So, I would imagine that CB leos would have close to the same chances(if not the same) at survival in it's natural ranges as the wild born ones.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan