Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been reading up on articles about wild animals in the pet trade... This experpt from "What about the Wild Ones" is moved me so much... I really makes me wonder if I'm doing the right thing...

"Regrettably, the least understood and the least discussed are the impacts on culture. While part of the society is trying to rebuild values on the sanctity of the living world, the exotic pet trade is tearing them down. When bears and elephants are enslaved to dance in costumes before jeering crowds, the awe of nature is diminished. When snakes are puzzled together to breed pretty colors, when Zebras and Lions are manipulated to produce "Zorses," "Ligers," and other hybrid freaks for fun and profit, respect for nature is eroded. And when one wild species after another is captured, imported, confined, bred, bottle-raised, declawed, and otherwise processed for the pet trade, we dump the last remains of human respect and sensitivity toward other life in the world. In commodizing animals for pets and other purposes, the exotics trade is sending out bad lessons about wildlife and nature. It is teaching that animals are seperable from their communities, their ecosystems, and their evolution. It is teaching ignorance, disrepect, and callousness toward individual animals and, by extension, their species, their bocommunities, and the entire living world."

This article confuses a couple of issues. Is it saying we shouldn't have pets? Is it saying we should only have pets that were bred into docility a long time ago? Is my dog seperated enough from a wild animal so that keeping her doesn't make me callous about nature or whatever? What about my virutally unchanged but societally accepted parakeet? It seems to take the worst aspects of the wild animal trade (dancing bears?), and instead of proposing a workable solution, it calls all exotic pet owners evil. Of course we should be careful with wild caught animals. But there's nothing wrong with a sustainable harvest of wild animals. In fact, the fact that people can make money off of a still-wild habitat gives them a reason not to destroy it.

The BEST way to teach respect for nature is to live with a wild animal. If I have a python I love, I'm going to worry a heck of a lot more about the rainforests where its wild relatives live are being cut down. Think through every piece of propaganda you read, and try to see if someone is twisting the truth for their own ends.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Was that it was more about circus animals (dancing bears and elephants) and designer pets...i.e. Ball Python color morphs.

The only part that really concerns most of us in that article is the part about breeding reptiles for "pretty colors". Well, those animals that we produce, say a pie bald ball python, probably don't exsist in the wild, with maybe one exception. So breeding certain snakes in captivity to obtain "pretty colors" has no effect on wild populations.
As to the rest of it, anyone can make a sob story out of things they don't agree with, much like vegetarians complaining about factory farms and chaining themselves to fences and the like. I say just take everything with a grain of salt.
eliot stone
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1.0 Hypo Corn Het. for Amber
0.1 Spotted Python
and always looking for more!

You talk about the "exotic pet trade" like it was an entity to itself. In reality, it is made up of buyers, sellers, keepers and their individual scuples. We are all a part of that exotic pet trade by owning, keeping, buying, and selling exotic animals. Therefore, WE become the teachers of respect for exotic animals to the world around us. Are there unscrupulous people in the trade? Yes, and there are unscrupulous people in other businesses around the world. It's not a perfect world. Are we "teaching ignorance, disrepect, and callousness toward individual animals and, by extension, their species, their biocommunities, and the entire living world?" I don't think so. We are a community, participating and reinforcing a culture of care and respect for exotic cold-blooded reptiles the likes of which most of the world could care less about and are even repulsed by through their own ignorance.

Does the exotic pet trade have problems? Sometimes it does because of ignorance and greed. Can we make it better and not just roll over and say all is doomed? Yes, don't do business with those that abuse exotic animals. We need to educate them and ourselves about the problems in the trade and continue to provide forums for people to do so.

What's a biocommunity anyway? A bunch of things eating each other? I think I have one of those in my sink.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Either that or you don't want to look at the realities of your actions. I love a lot of the color and pattern morphs of Balls, since they're a target of this article, but you have to look at it from a proper stance. A lot of the "proving" and "innovations" come from inbreeding, "I'm going to breed him back to his mother to see what I get". You inbreed anything and you're going to get genetic mutations. This is most likely the source of these genetic mutations in the wild. It could be free radicals, but inbreeding is far more likely a cause. In dog breeding, it is completely unethical to throw two dogs together just to see what you'll get from it and it's almost a sin to inbreed...linebreeding is skipping at least one generation and is still bad for genetics. Sure, sure, you plan out the genetic map to get your desired mutuation but it's still the same principle. I don't claim to understand entirely about genetics, but I do have knowledge of dog breeding and the genetic defects caused in purebred dogs. Almost all of those genetic defects are caused by in/linebreeding. If you're going to purposely create genetic defects in a creature, at least be honest with yourself about it. They're not "just snakes", "just lizards", "just reptiles" and they deserve the same respect as cats and dogs.

And nobody can deny the humiliating fact of putting a bear or elephant in a clown suit to dance in a circus. Or how wrong it is to purposely breed a lion to a tiger, two species that would never breed in the wild. This does cheapen wild life. I think those of you that are getting upset about this need to take a few steps back and re-evaluate your mindset.

Disclaimer: I am not saying it's "wrong" to breed the color morphs or that you are a bad person for doing it. Just be honest with yourself about it.

"Disclaimer: I am not saying it's "wrong" to breed the color morphs or that you are a bad person for doing it. Just be honest with yourself about it."

Your disclaimer is hypocritical if you stand behind your argument.

"Or how wrong it is to purposely breed a lion to a tiger..."
"In dog breeding, it is completely unethical..."
"...it is completely unethical to throw two dogs together ..."
"...it's almost a sin to inbreed..."

I'm not saying your wrong either, just be honest with yourself when you try to promote an argument and then choose to stand on the fence with that disclaimer. You need to "take a few steps back and re-evaluate your mindset."

JUST SAY IT, they are wrong, if you believe it. No need to be wishy-washy.

All 'show-quality' purebred dogs are so inbred it's ridiculous. That's what a dog breed IS, a group of dogs inbred so that they resemble each other. But there are many dog breeds free of genetic disease, and careful breeders can rid their lines of diseases. Anyway, snake breeders have a LONG way to go before we're anything close to dogs. Thank goodness...

-Owner of a grotesquely deformed animal created solely for human enjoyment (the one pictured on the right)

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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

Exactly. And what's the difference between throwing dogs together to see what you get and doing the same thing with snakes? None.

I was pointing out what the original post said and my feelings towards inbreeding. My disclaimer was because I honestly don't know if the same genetic rules apply to reptile breeding as dog breeding.

Why do I even bother?

Either that or you don't want to look at the realities of your actions. I love a lot of the color and pattern morphs of Balls, since they're a target of this article, but you have to look at it from a proper stance. A lot of the "proving" and "innovations" come from inbreeding, "I'm going to breed him back to his mother to see what I get". You inbreed anything and you're going to get genetic mutations. This is most likely the source of these genetic mutations in the wild. It could be free radicals, but inbreeding is far more likely a cause.

Inbreeding does not cause mutations. It only increases the likelyhood that a recessive trait may be expressed (if the original breeders also carry that trait).

In dog breeding, it is completely unethical to throw two dogs together just to see what you'll get from it and it's almost a sin to inbreed...linebreeding is skipping at least one generation and is still bad for genetics. Sure, sure, you plan out the genetic map to get your desired mutuation but it's still the same principle. I don't claim to understand entirely about genetics, but I do have knowledge of dog breeding and the genetic defects caused in purebred dogs. Almost all of those genetic defects are caused by in/linebreeding. If you're going to purposely create genetic defects in a creature, at least be honest with yourself about it. They're not "just snakes", "just lizards", "just reptiles" and they deserve the same respect as cats and dogs.

In order for inbreeding to cause genetic defects, the alleles for those defects must be present in the breeding population. So, while there are defects that are common within specific breeds, those same breeds may completely lack the alleles for other defects. Personally, I prefer to adopt shelter animals and mixes, but you can find healthy lines of purebred dogs (even though I think that some physical characteristics that have been selected for in some purebreds are detrimental in themselves).

Besides all that, there is a huge difference in dog/cat breeding compared to snake morph breeding. In order to produce purebred dogs, you need to breed purebred dogs (in most cases). This is because you are breeding for a large number of traits that it has taken years to pick out and refine. You can't breed a German Shepard to a Collie and say that the pups are 'het Shepards' and when bred back to a Shepard will produce 50% German Shepards, 50% half-breeds. Right? So you are breeding from a much smaller gene pool and not allowing any new genetic variation to come in. On the other hand, if you are breeding for a single trait or two, you can outbreed and everyone does. There is a comparatively tiny amount of inbreeding to breed out some recessive traits, but again, these will continue to be mixed with totally unrelated snakes. Inbreeding shouldn't be a problem here.

I'm definately in agreement with the circus stuff though.

Thank you for explaining that.

Linebreeding is not common place in dog breeding. However, it is used in other animals. The cattle industry being the biggest example.

In snakes, when new morphs are first introduced, there often is inbreeding involved. The resulting offspring of inbreed snakes should be outcrossed to bring in new blood lines. I have not seen this discussed much on snake forums. Is it important to most ball python breeders?

I have seen people with only one breeding pair of snakes selling "pairs"...

In other animals, recessive traits are outcrossed to a normal animal to reduce the weak genes that may accompany the recessive trait. Recessive genes that are known to produce animals that are less healthy do benefit from breeding hetro X hetro instead of homo X homo... etc.

I would like to breed albino BP's. I am still learning about BP's first though.

It says "Regrettably, the least understood and the least discussed are the impacts on culture. While part of the society is trying to rebuild values on the sanctity of the living world, the exotic pet trade is tearing them down.

If you want to be honest, have you ever watched a national geographic special where virtually any moving thing is killed and eaten by natives. Do you think their "culture" values the sanctity of the living world as much as a pet rat owner who spends $2000 on cancer treatments for an animal that will only live a couple more months due to old age? Their culture views animals as merely food not part of the family. How many natives have killed snakes because they might be poisonous? How many have you purposely killed? Our culture treats animals, far, far better than almost any culture they would experience in their native lands.

When snakes are puzzled together to breed pretty colors

Morphs are not hybrids! Don't confuse the two. Just because one doesn't typically occur in nature doesn't mean we are creating it. Also, most breeders are against hybrids, as I am. While I would never dictate this to anyone, I don't know why anyone would do it? They claim that it is very commonplace (by all their examples) while it is not the norm nor generally accepted. Ligers and Tions, for instance were produced by the same person.--condemning an industry because of a few/one person's actions is wrong.

And when one wild species after another is captured, imported, confined, bred, bottle-raised, declawed, and otherwise processed for the pet trade, we dump the last remains of human respect and sensitivity toward other life in the world.

What? In my opinion, this means we value it, not that we dump the last remains of human respect and sensitivity...... People respect animals in this country more than they ever have, for crying out loud! 100 years ago people thought nothing of hunting for food, then hunting for sport was popular, now a lot of people won't even consider hunting for food! I know people that won't even use rat/mouse poison/traps! How many people would work hard for weeks, and save money, to buy a snake in other parts of the world!?--this is pure propaganda by the animal rights activists.

It is teaching that animals are separable from their communities, their ecosystems, and their evolution. It is teaching ignorance, disrepect, and callousness toward individual animals and, by extension, their species, their bocommunities, and the entire living world

Again, what? Teaching ignorance? How much do we know about breeding reptiles that we didn't know 20 years ago? A lot. Did this ignorance come from not importing anything, ever? Disrespect for their species and biocommunities? Most species are saved because they are valued. It they aren't valued by anyone for any reason, who is willing to put in the effort to save them? Most species are becoming extinct because their environment is a commodity--like logging/slash and burn/making charcoal, etc. I read a study once where it said 95% of all known extinctions, to date, came from man exploiting an area, 3% came from natural disasters (floods, hurricanes, droughts), and only 2% came from either the pet trade or intentional killing of the animals for food or because they were considered pests.

Puts things into perspective a bit,
Rodney

herp traders are some of the worst at killing and stealing from nature..........

......really............

.........I like hybrids to a point............

.......and by the way .,,,I eat wild animals..........all kinds....

anyways.........?

was there another point?..........

animals....it is what is for dinner tonight.

First of all, Matt, I wish to point out that we all know you are not a reptile breeder and that the purpose of your post is propaganda. However, I offer another perspective for your consideration...

Selective breeding reptiles in captivity allows for...

1. A better understanding of these animals' reproductive husbandry and biology - this can facilitate future efforts to replenish threatened populations in the wild.
2. (especially in the case of ball pythons) Wild populations will be safer as increased captive propagation of these animals will eventually eliminate the economic incentive for the export of wild caught animals.
3. In our society, there is little need for any contact with non-domesticated (i.e. exotic) animals. The net effect of the large scale efforts with captive reptiles and amphibians (and other exotics) is to increase respect and awareness for these animals... even their wild counterparts. This in turn can easily lead to an increased awareness of the damage that our society causes upon the ecosystems where these animals coexist. Eventually this increased awareness may pave the way for the enactment of legislation for the protection of these ecosystems -- let's face the fact that the primary danger to wild animals is habitat destruction and NOT captive breeding.

Matt, captive breeding is not INHERENTLY wrong. However, I would love to read your argument to counter this (of course, I could just pick up any PETA propaganda leaflet and read the same).

I suggest that you place your efforts in pushing for the support of legislation designed to protect the natural habitats of these animals that you profess to love. In other words, start where it is most needed rather than wasting your efforts on derivative issues that you do not fully understand.

BTW, if you ARE a reptile breeder, then I recommend that you resolve these apparent contradictions in your mind. Check your premises... what are you assuming to be factual that may not actaully be the truth?

What the hell is all of this??? I never said I was supporting the article, I just said it had an impact on me. I don't have an argument for or against it, but after seeing some of the replies I guess it put most of my thoughts to rest.

I didn't come here to attack, or force an ideals on anyone

Take a breather and relax

If this nonsense makes anyone sick to their stomach, how will they ever be able to feed their snakes cute little mice and rats anyway? That kind of person should grow plants instead. But be careful when you prune them! Plants have been scientifically proven to have feelings too.

Rodney

How dare you take that African violet out of its biocommunity and breed callous disrespect for nature! We should all stick to bricks with faces drawn on them.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

OK, glad to know that you are not supporting it. However, it DID seems that way. Now you know what we all generally think of PETA and other such ilk.