Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I also have a question or two....... Does any one here really believe that leos in the wild do not get impacted or live to the age that captive leos live to????? I am sure impactions happen offten in the wild..... Just might take longer due to the grain size differance..... Leos mature fast and lay lots of eggs in a season for a reason...... Reason being they do not live ten years in the wild...... I am willing to bet they dont live longer than 5 years...... And to the person from Aztec, I have a degree in bio, I have kept reptiles for over 20 years..... I bred my first leopard geckos when high yellows where the biggest thing...... I have work in 2 zoos and one was spacificly for herps of all kinds...... I currently got back into leos after a while of not keeping them...... Breeding leos is the easiest thing to do because all you need to do is keep them alive and healthy....... But to the breeders that do it on a large scale like Kelli H and A&M deserve lots of credit and get my total respect because large scale breeding is not an easy thing and not everyone is capable of doing it..... My main area is working with, keeping, and breeding gaboons, rhinos, puffs, and a few other species of hots...... I breed hundreds of snakes a year..... Plus hundreds of scorpions...... About 20 species at the current time...... I do not breed leos on a large scale....... I have a regular job so I am keeping the leo collection small for now...... Small but very high quality...... The hots take up most of my free time...... You said that you do not think the villa was the problem in one post and then you said you dont know how large or small the villa is in a leopard gecko in another...... Just to let you know it is large enough to catch small bits of sand....... That is all it takes to start the base for an impaction problem...... The fact is leos will lick the surface of their environment no matter how many calcium dishes you put in the cage..... To think otherwise is just plain ignorant...... So the more you read the less you breed????? Well that is pretty ignorant also...... I think what I just told you above shoud put that to rest...... Since when is learning ALL you can about a certain order of animal a bad thing????? The more you reply to my post the more ignorant you seem to be..... Bottom line, sand is a known killer and it has killed leos in the hands of very eperianced and knowledgable keepers and breeders...... You do not seem to be either...... Sorry for not being one of the followers out here kissing your ass......

I've spoken to some breeders who have kept leos on sand without any problems, but I would never use it.

Most of the imapacted leos I've seen appear to have eaten their substrate on purpose. This substrate eating behavior seems to occur more often, in sick, under nourished, or stressed leopard geckos. There are probbly many events that happen captivity that could be stressful to a leopard gecko, and there a also probably certain dietary components that captive leos don't receive. I think that either of these factors could lead to sand eating. Additionally, substrates such as calci-sand are not natural and perhaps even encourage sand eating behavior.

Death at a young age in the wild from impactions (juvi leos seem to be most prone to them) would be a strong selective pressure. Impaction prone leos would quickly be weeded out. Humans, however, often breed leos for things like color and pattern rather than "survival ability" so perhaps impactions are partially due to our leos domesticity.

I guess I just can't conceive of leos dropping dead of impactions regularly in the wild. But, if you have something that says otherwise I'd love to read it.

-Alice

First off Astrid was and has never been under nourished, and has always been just fine and healthy. Never had I seen any signs of stress with Astrid either. I like all other leo keepers who kept their leo on sand watched Astrid very closley. However I did notice Astrid would only consume sand when he hunted. Mostly when he missed a cricket. Astrid ended up impacted however luckly I caught it soon enough to get him healthy again, changed his substrate and now he is doing better than ever.

I believe what keeper is saying, and what him and I have both been saying from the beginging is it IS your choice what you use, however you'd think knowing that there is a CHANCE your leo can become rather ill, or even die would be good enough to not do something. I can't say I would ever put sand in Astrid's tank just because I wanted this "so called natural" look, knowing it could harm him. If I had of been more knowledable at the time I wouldn't have either.
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~Kayla
*********************
1.0 Leo Gecko's *Astrid* - was told he was a her at first
0.0.1 Pictus Gecko *Raine* - too young to sex
1.1 Hollond Lop Bunnies *Panda, Oreo*

well by that concept, then shouldn't you not be feeding crickets?...crickets are known to carry parasites...so why put your leo at risk for that? Also, someone a day or 2 ago said they think a very small mealworm inside his leos head caused its death...should you not feed mealies b/c of that?...there's a risk associated with most things...just because there is a slight risk doesn't mean things should necessarily be avoided all together...especially if you are careful with it.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

KelliH and A&M gecko large scale breeders...lol. I think they would be the first to tell you they are by no means large scale...in fact, I would be willing to bet my colony is right about the same size as theirs. KelliH has kept leos on sand for many years, and only switched for the same reasons I did...if you check the archives you will find posts from her that say this. By the way if you know so much about intestines and villi, you would know the lining constantly sheds. So how does something build up so easily(as you make it seem) on a lining that sheds?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I argued with a rescue center for about 15 minutes on how sand is not good for them and not worth the risk.

All they did was say they had a degree and it was natural for them... And they keep all their leos on it without problems.

of course I said "why take the risk?" And they said "paper towels are boring" @_@

Ok, to start off....... I should have said larger scale than most of the people out here...... The mucus lining in the intestines do "shed" out...... The sand that lines the track will impeed this "shedding" and I said it is the base for an impaction not the cause..... And the mealworm thing is a rediculous urban ledgend..... You believe that but dont believe sand is not good for leos when it has been proven???? Did the mealworms reproduce in the geckos head...... Every one knows you need beetle to make mealworms..... Oh wait I know the leo had a colony of beetles in it body..... Whats wrong with me???? I should have known that...... I cant believe you even restated that...... When I read that, it was so stupid I could not even post a reply....... Crickets do not carry parasites that will harm a leo...... That is something else that needs to be cleared up....... Those parasites are usually passed with no problems...... Unless there has been a resent outbreak of cricket parasites that kill leopard geckos....... Has anyone here had a leo get sick from crickets...... This is rediculous..... I just need to know do most of you buy into what everything you read????? There are lots of studies in the work right now...... Just because you do not have access to it does not mean it has not been studied and written about...... I refuse to drop names so I will not tell you who I am assosiated with but most of you would be shocked if You knew........ And no it aint the croc hunter or Jeff Corwin....... I just like how all of you armchair naturalist tell it how it is when you have nothing to back you up........ I am going to check my gaboon head out...... I might have some baby rats trying to eat their way out......LOL

Crickets most certainly can and do carry worms which do cause problems in leos. They can also carry really nasty bacterial infections and mold toxins, and yes this has been verified by laboratory analysis.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

Agreed...

I said nothing about mealworms multiplying in a geckos head...I don't know how the hell you got that out of it... A couple days ago someone posted about thier gecko having dieing from seizures, and one the responses was someone who said that thier leo had died from seizures, and shortly after it died a very small mealworm crawled out of its ear opening. That in no way means it was born in there or smt...I know mealworms can't eat through stomachs and stuff...but that doesn't mean it didn't crawl into the leos ear hole while it was sleeping and start chewing at things in there....
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

christina,
It could also mean that the mealworm entered through the ear after it was dead...this is actually the more likely scenario.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

of course that's quite possible and likely...I was just making a point that a LOT of things have risks associated with them
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

I know where your coming from ...I'm just having trouble understanding where someone else is coming from...
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

yeah...I'm starting to wonder where that degree came from...
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

I have resisted getting involved in this ridiculous display of egos and opinions in regard to what substrate is the 'right' one because frankly, it is consuming too much of the discussion in this forum, and it's getting pretty old. This debate has been going on for years! Why don't we all just agree that we cannot agree on this subject?

BUT!!!! I cannot let the comment about crickets not carrying disease or parasites slip by. This could not be more false. Crickets are the #1 contributor for pinworms in reptiles, not to mention fly eggs that can hatch into larvae in the geckos' GI system. This is VERY common!

Several years ago I lost 17 out of 24 of my breeders over a period of about 5-6 months to a horrible, drawn out death. Nothing showed up on any fecals, or even cultures. I thought it was crypto, but I had 3 necropsies done and the diagnosis was Hepatic Lipidosis, or fatty liver disease. My poor geckos were wasting away, and no one could tell me what was wrong, including Dr. Roger Klingenberg, much less what to do. I was out of my mind with frustration and grief.

I finally got Dr. Frederic L. Frye to perform the final necropsy. (You so-called herpetologists should know who he is..)He had the same diagnosis... hepatic lipidosis. He did, however, discover why my geckos were dying from this. They were being poisoned from the crickets! My beloved geckos suffered long and agonizing deaths due to mycotoxic poisoning from ingesting crickets that were fed on moldy corn-based food. As soon as I discontinued using crickets from that vendor, I had no more new cases. I just had to try to rehabilitate 7 very sick geckos.

Now... last spring I started having a problem with bacterial infections that affected about 20% of my geckos. It was completely random. I had a culture grown from a collective fecal, and guess what? The bacteria was Citrobacter Freundii, which could be caused from crickets. So, my next shipment of crix came in, and I had about a dozen sent over to Idex Labs for testing. They were loaded with the following:
- Provedencia Rettgeri
- Proteus Vulgaris
- Klebsiella Pneumoniae
- Aeromonas
- Citrobacter Freundii

All of these organisms can cause sickness, and even death in Leopard Geckos.

So, can you please take the wind out of your sails, so the rest of us can move on to topics that really need discussed and addressed?

Thank you!

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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I remember that clearly Marcia...thanks for your imput on this. Well, I don't feed crix to my leos, but I do worry about my dragons. I don't feed my adults crix, but I do raise my hatchlings on crix. I haven't had problems with illness...I wonder if the high basking temps are a factor in fighting possible parasitic infections fron the crix in this case.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

While crickets in general can and do carry disease they need to be exposed to the pathogen in the first place. That is, where you get your crickets from is very important. Suppliers that keep their crix in "dirty" conditions, with rotting or moldy food are going to have a lot more problems with fungus or bacteria. Crickets exposed to coccidia or crypto will become carriers, but they need to have that exposure in the first place. From what I hear coccidia or crypto in crix direct from breeder is not common (god save anyone who gets them from a pet store where some employee tosses the uneaten crix back in the bin, then they might have ANYTHING) but I hear it happens occasionally- something about crypto or coccidia infected chickens, and the crickets eating bits of eggshell.

Aren't beardies more "hardy" than leos when it comes to some parasites? I have read that coccidia generally doesn't cause problems in beardies and infection with that parasite is even considered normal in the species, while coccidia usually makes leos very sick or kills them.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

Yeah, low levels of coccidia are common in BD's, and should not be treated. My rule is if the dragon is not showing any outward signs of illness, do not treat. In one of last years issues of reptiles, Mader states in "ask the vet" that there is evidence that pinworms might be beneficial in aiding the digestion of plant matter in omnivours and herbivours. He suggests that BD's might even have their own species of pinworms.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I remember you talking about this before but it doesn't make it any less sad!!! I am wondering though, the tests you had performed that showed the cause of the problem, are these tests that any reptile vet could do??? When LEO was sick my vet did fecals but never found anything....she prescribed meds to see if it would help (can't remember the name of them) but nothing worked. We worked for a long time trying to get him better, she even did an ultrasound but he eventually died. I was feeding crickets at the time and come to think of it, the store i got them from doesn't have them in the cleanest conditions...

I feed mealworms now and none of my geckos since have been sick.

Thankyou
Red
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Crested Gecko Zeek:1.0
LEOS: Boo: 1.0 normal , Bronx & Nala: 1.1 blizzard,
Lily: 0.1 patternless, Abby: 0.1 albino, Zoe: 0.1 reduced pattern, Dot: 0.1 hypo
Chip: 1.0 papillion (small dog)

"I am sure impactions happen offten in the wild"

Man, are you sure you have a bio degree? If so, you shaould ask for your tuition back, you missed the whole point of Natural Selection.

"Bottom line, sand
is a known killer and it has killed leos in the hands of very eperianced and knowledgable keepers
and breeders...... You do not seem to be either.."

I assure you that I am both a very experienced and knowledgable breeder, not because I have read tons of pulished information about the lizards I breed(which I have), but because I have "read" my lizards through out the years. That's the whole point behind "the more you read, the less you breed". I'm sorry if this fact makes you feel less able to effectively debate with me. It's evident in the way you so quickly resort to belittling comments and run off to feed you Hots when things get "hot", or venomous for that matter, on here.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

first you said you had a degree in herpetology when you dont and now you are trying to make some kind of point. but i cant figure out what it is yet.
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danny h.

1.3 leopard geckos

Danny,
What are you talking about???? How do you know what I have or dont have????? I want to see hard facts that crickets kill leos...... I dont want to hear stories of inconclusive necros or "it might have been the cause" Those parasites will only seriously affect a leo if it is not cared for properly or if a leo is highly stressed and/or sick from something else........... I have nothing to prove to anyone out here...... You dont want to listen to what I say that is fine..... I have studies to back up my statements...... And it is conclusive, not guess work........ Stop listening to hype for a minute and do some actual studying...... Try going to museums and checking out the wet collections...... Some of the breeders out here are so hard headed and are truley blind to scientific facts...... Most of you are running on he said she said....... I work off facts in front of me........ And I never said I was gonna feed anything..... What the hell are you talking about???? I see how many crickets kill leos....... Yeah look at all the post saying that my leo died from crickets...... Any feeders can carry bacteria from not being kept right...... Mealworms are not subseptable to the same bad conditions as crickets....... I want to see a pinworm infested cricket....... With pinworms that can stay alive in a leopard gecko....... Look at facts and not "I heard this from so and so"...... Its funny how when you are a breeder you are like god and everyone listens to what you have to say....... Unfortunatly for you I am not part of that flock....... Its not often someone goes against a breeders word....... But when someone does they are an idiot........LOL........ I honest do not care how long you have been reading your geckos....... You obviously have no clue about what is going on inside that you cant see by just reading your lizard....... Instead of reading you leos why not buy a book on how to get a clue and read that.......

You yourself said you had a degree in herpetology...and then later corrected yourself and said it was a degree in biology specializing in herps...did you not read your own posts?...lol I want to know how you can argue with experience?...a couple people have said (yeah I know...he said she said...blah blah blah) that they had ill animals from the crickets they fed, and when they changed the source of thier feeders and treated for the problems, the animals got better. Also...do you not know the life cycles of parasites at all?...you should with a bio degree...only certain animals make suitable carriers or intermediate hosts for most of them. Perhaps mealworms aren't suitable for most of the parasites that affect leos. I don't know that myself...but its just a thought... Also...not everything works exactly as the way the text shows it will. Ever heard a vet or doctor utter the phrase "there's no such thing as a textbook case?" You keep saying studies show this and that and that people's experiences are invalid...well that's b.s. Experience is just as valid as something written in a book...just because you didn't read it somewhere doesn't mean it can't happen or isn't true.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

some of that may have come out oddly...I'm tired and I didn't feel like reading it over again...lol
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

I did not correct myself....... Just explained why I said what I said in an earlier post because the tipic came up later....... I stopped jumping on you and your stupidity...... When are you going to stop jumping on me????? You actually seem like the least knowledgable person on this forum....... This is the last time I answer any of you brain killing post....... Like I said I have nothing to prove to anyone here....... Just tried to share some info I have gotten from actual studies that the majority have no access to....... Sorry if I cant get deeper into it and explain exactly what brings these conclusions up because they are not all my studies...... Tried to shed some light on things but people are too thickheaded to make room for new info....... Cant teach old dogs new tricks I guess...... It really is unfortunate that so many of you listen to a persons word because of how many animals they sell each year.........

What you just said is a bunch of b.s.... and btw...I don't listen to anyone for how many animals they sell...I most certainly know selling animals doesn't make someone an expert. Know how many dog breeders there are out there that don't know jack [bleep] but breed a whole lot of animals just for the money?...not to mention puppy mills. I personally think that the more animals someone sells the less they care about the breed/species. Now I know that's not always the case...but its usually true (and I am NOT referring to anyone on here). I don't believe everything I read, I know the difference between a reputable and non-reputable source. The meaning behind that phrase "the more you read the less you breed..." is simply a statement to the effect that if all you do is read the books, you miss a lot of what's going on. A lot of the time things don't go by the book...just ask any veterinarian. The key is a combination of reading the books, finding the reliable sources, and having the experiences...reading a book means a whole lotta b.s. when you have no experience. And no...having tons of animals doesn't make a lot of experience...having even one animal and caring for it properly and caring about what happens to it makes for experience. btw, I did not personally attack...I just said what you did...first you said you had a degree in herpetology...then you said it wasn't...I don't care what your exlaination was, that's what you did. btw...my personal opinion is that just because someone has a degree doesn't mean they know what they're talking about either...anyone can get a degree.
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

This has gone quite far enough. Bringing this argument back up every other day gets us no where and it has degenerated into useless argument (saying you have a bio degree means nothing, how long you've kept these animals means nothing. I would ask, how many papers have you written on this species and how many have been published).

If someone wants to do an experiment I invite them to do so and provide their findings (this is the true mark of a scientist, not saying anything until it has been observed and recorded in a controlled fashion).

The experiment is simple, but will require the sacrifice of a large number of geckos and a lot of work. Keep 20 geckos on paper towel, and 20 (or higher number) geckos on sand, each individually housed, each fed the same thing, each held at the same temperatures. See if the rate of impaction differs between the two groups and by what percentage. Then see if the percentage is significant (more than 10%). Then further experiments can be done to see what factors increase impaction rates (temperatures, food, water, vitimin amounts in diet, etc).

Simply arguing that it is natural isn't enough. Simply arguing that it is husbandry without proving it isn't enough. Simply arguing by saying "well my geckos don't get impacted" isn't enough.

Do NOT bring this arguement back up until something has been found that bears significance. You guys need to seriously cool off and have time to think it over before saying another word about whether sand is good or bad.

-Lemur 6

You know what, You are 100% right...... I had enough of argueing anyway......