Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey gaboonkeeper,

i saw a few of your posts below but i decided not to get involved. anyways i just wanted to hear your experiences/opinions on my personal question.

do you think leopard geckos in captivity in general have a higher tendency to get impacted by sand, then say other species of terrestrial geckos? (not sure if u have experience with other geckos, im assuming u have) i've kept a large variety of different terrestrial geckos, ranging from $10 pictus to $1000 nephrurus. some of the species i've kept and are currently keeping, strictly on sand which include fattail geckos, nephrurus geckos and others. never once have i had any problems with other gecko species which were kept on sand, the only problem i've had with a leo getting impacted was one young male who of all things liked to ingest bed-a-beast that was in his humdity container? (mb he thought it was chocolate? lol). however i should mention i keep all my leos on paper towels and have been doing so for several years.

im just wondering what your thoughts are about other gecko species being kept on sand. im basically asking this question for myself and several other friends- who between us have racks and racks of uncommon/rare nephrurus geckos and other geckos that are kept strictly on sand. in the last few years, we havent had any problems yet (knock on wood), but then again someone mentioned that we may supplement very well compared to the average keeper? anyways im tired, hope to hear your thoughts
take care

-SFgeckos

Ahh, the million dollar question...why would it be common practice for Nephrurus to be kept on sand? Are they smarter then leos? doubt it. Are they less prone to impactions? Is there such a thing? also doubt it. So, why do you keep your leos on PT and your $1000 Nephrurus on sand...lol? Is it fear of impaction or ease of maintanance? Anyway, how have you been...have you hatched some Nephrurus yet?
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I dont feel sand is a good substate for most reptiles...... The leos evironment does not have huge (relative to the size of their digestive system) grains of sand........ The sand you can buy at home depot or in a pet store is alot bigger than the natural somewhat sandy soil leos may live around in the wild...... Why do you not keep leos on sand????? Is it for the same reason I do not???? I do not have experiance with alot of geckos...... I never kept pictus...... I have kept AFT and kept them on paper towels also...... In my opinion and many others sand is not the ideal substrate for many herps..... It is actually more fact than opinion..... My point is, if they do not live in sand in the wild why put them on it in captivity when it can and does cause problems....... Because it looks cool???? I have a few thousand dollars invested in reptiles...... Why take chances when it can be totally avoided???? Also leos are very prone to licking their surroundings no matter how many calcium dishes you put in with them....... When they feed the get it in their mouth...... I have only kept desert horned vipers on sand but fed them in clean rubbermaids...... They also do not lick the ground when moving about.... Even desert species get impacted....... Just isnt worth it to me..........

I think some geckos, knob tails in particular, would do very poorly if kept on anything other than sand. Also, the point that leopard geckos don't live on playsand type sand in the wild is a mute point, they don't live on paper towel, slate or repticarpet either. I am not trying to be sarcastic, I am making the point that in order to keep Eublepharis sp. similar to their natural environment is not as simple as not using playsand. Here are excerpts from some webpages that speak about the natural habitat of leos in the wild.

"An excellent habitat description occurs in J. A. Anderson's "A report
on the gecko Teratolepis fasciata (Blyth, 1853) from The Journal
Bombay Natural History Society from 1964. The collection
site was a deserted cemetery at Raj Malk, district Thatta on the
western edge of the Indus delta in Pakistan. "The terrain is flat with
an average elevation of less than 10 ft. above sea level. The soil is
loose, grey sand and silt. The area is affected by salinity. The dominant vegetation is desert scrub, particularly Salsola foetida and
grasses. Two lakes lie alongside the site."..."Loose bricks...lie
scattered all over the ground intermixed with larger stone slabs...A
programme of mechanized cultivation is under way all around the site."
"Holes of small gerbilles are numerous and the terrain around the
walled-in square is uneven and colonized by the brush-tailed Meriones
hurrianae. A large variety of herps are found in this study site. Teratolepis
fasciata and Eublepharis macularius"

"Szczerbak and Golubev (1996) say that E. macularius lives..."on
clay-gravel soil covered by sand and abounding in bushes of
Zygophyllum." They also mention that the closely related E.
turcmenicus was found near areas with abundant rodent burrows."

"Minton in "A contribution to the herpetology of West Pakistan" 1966,
mentions, "The fat-tailed gecko inhabits rocky desert and sparse
grassland with clay soil but avoids sand. It tends to live in
colonies. On the northern part of Malir Contonment near Karachi the
lizards are concentrated along a buried water pipeline where crevices
provide shelter and seepage supplies permanent moisture...Another
large colony inhabits rock walls supporting the highway in Bolan Pass
near Mach."

More Here

"The Leopard gecko can be typically located in Southwest Asia. The range of E. macularius is from eastern Afghanistan and spreads south through Pakistan to western India (Szczerbak and Golubev, 1996). Most specimens seen in the wild were found in rocky deserts and arid grasslands (Martinez). They are most frequently located on clay-gravel soil covered by sand and rich in bushes of Zygophyllum (Szczerbak and Golubev, 1996). They are nocturnal animals, so during the day they can be found hidden in holes and crevices in avoid predators (Sleigh and Birchard, 2001)."

Read More Here

It's amazing that there is not more scientifc data out there on Eublepharis sp. If the Middle East wasn't such a volitile and dangerous place to visit right now I swear I would travel there myself so that I could observe leopard geckos in the wild, and write about their natural behaviour and habitat!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The sand found in these areas is not the same texture or grain size you buy in the pet store or in home depot..... We all know they do not live on paper towels in the wild....... Nothing lives on walnut shell or corn cob but people use that stuff too....... Like I asked before do you honestly think wild leos live to the ages they do in captivity...... I am sure alot of them do get impacted in the wild....... Like I said earlier, look at some wet collections in a museum....... Gut content will tell you alot...... I am willing to bet that in the wild under the best conditions they dont live half as long...... The point is that paper towels, although not a natural substrate will keep you leos from being impacted where as sand causes problems....... Paper towels are clean and bacteria free as long as proper and timely cleaning is done...... Sand can hold bacteria for a long time and just because you scoop out poop every day does not mean bacteria does not stick around....... And leos do not get paper towels in their intestines to impact them........

Gregg-

How they live in the wild is almost a mute point, like I said before. Leopard geckoshave been in captivity for so many years now! It is more important IMO how well they do with a certain setup in captivity, not how they live in the wild, although it is very interesting.

Of course I do not think most leopard geckos in the wild live as long as captive ones. However, I think this probably has little to do with impaction and much more to do with natural predators and becoming road kill.

I would love to go look at a preserved Eublepharis in a museum, I don't know of any collections containing such in my area. Believe me I wish there were!

I realize some people have had problems with sand. I am not saying it is perfect or for everyone. All I can go by is my own personal experience (does that even count here anymore?).

I also think it is ridiculous to state (as you did on another forum) that you refuse to purchase leopard geckos from breeders who keep their breeders on sand! I bet 75% or maybe even more of leopard gecko breeders keep their leos on sand! In fact, I think I will email some of them and find out for myself!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Now kelli,
I have stated before that I have nothing but respect for you..... Ofcourse your opinion and personal experiance count for alot...... You are one of the most knowledgable people out here...... I am just flipping it to the other side of the coin...... I am telling you what I have seen before me...... The cons far out weigh the pros as far as sand goes....... Again it is not worth the chance...... If you are ever in my neck of the woods I will be honored to take you to a huge wet collection...... I know the head of the department and we will have full access to any of the wet collections....... I have spent a few hundred hours looking through wets...... The stuff you find in gut contents is amazing sometimes...... One time I opend the gut content of a 6 foot West African gaboon viper and found a yearling royal antelope...... Pretty damn cool......

I understand what you are saying about sand. I just believe that the substrate one uses is a responsible keeper's choice, and I still do not believe sand is deadly as it has been made out to be. That's just my opinion though.

I have access to a couple of huge preserved collections and could go check them out anytime. I am specificaly interested in studying a preserved species of Eublepharis though. They seem to be in short demand!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The environment of the geckos talked about above are way different then that of the leopard gecko....... Some animals from certain environments may very well be less prone to impaction than others...... I also feel that animals in captivity are not as tough as animals in the wild...... In the wild only the stongest survive and in captivity only the prettiest survive....... And inbreeding 20 to 30 generations does not help matters much either......

Just wondering what the correlation is?
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The fact that inbreeding helps to weaken bloodlines and bad traits are passed down the line where in the wild they would be eliminated.....

You're right about that, some unethical breeders do breed genetically weak animals. I still don't understnad what that has to do with impaction but I do agree with your point.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The point was that geneticly weak animals are more subseptable to thing that would not normally be too big of a problem in geneticly strong animals.....

What does that have to do with the anatomy or chemistry of the gastrointestinal tract that would cause impaction more easily?
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

I believe leos were found living in those areas when the studies were being undertaken
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Christina

0.3.1 leos (soon to be 1.3.1!)
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)
-soon to be 1.0 tangerine rainwater albino
1.0 australian shepherd/cattle dog (Foster...although he was being fostered before I got him...that has nothing to do with his name...It's after the beer!...lol since he's australian and I'm a college student!)

Christina,
Are you stupid or do you just act that way???? Why do I feel like I have to repeat myself every time you post...... I just explained it...... When an animal is inbred like leos are, things start to fail and not work as they should..... This is all functions including digestion...... Things survuve in captivity that would normaly die in the wild...... For instance all of the color morphs in this hobby do not exist in the wild...... They are picked off pretty quickly...... With in a couple of days of hatching or being born...... Do you think patternless are a natural thing...... It is a genetic defect that is not fit in wild populations..... But in captivity they are free of predators and are able to survive normally..... Just think of normal functions as if it were a line bred leo or an albino gene....... Then you will see what I am getting at...... Like I said do some thinking instead of quoting others......

afghangeckos.netfirms.com/index.htm
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Now that is very interesting..... I have never seen wild caught patternless in a wet collection before....... That is some info that needs to be look at more...... Thanks for the link...... I think you know what I was getting at with that post though......

If this could be proven, it would blow the lid off everything we have been led to believe.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Someone posted this link a year or so ago, and there was discussion about it. As I recally the consensus was it was a big hoax, e.g. just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true.

If anyone has more input on this or can document from another site i'd love to hear it
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

www.calacademy.org/research/herpetology/catalog/BrwsHerpRecDisp.asp?Atr=Genus&Val=Eublepharis
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I'd love to see another source with pics. Or if anyone does some more research. Maybe I will if I get some free time someday Still need to finish my website!
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

I'll look when I go over there sometime next fall Marcia. Might even see if I can smuggle a few back. Want some?

Tim
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LEOs: 6.9.0
1.3 High Yellows-Barney,Betty,?,?
2.0 Hypo Tangerines-Bam-bam,Rex
0.3 SHCT's -Journey,Wiggy,Lil'bit
1.0 Rescued Normals -Shleprock
1.3Tremper Albinos Mr.Slate,?,?,?
1.0 Tang Tremp Albino - Rocky

you find wild caught hypos or patternless, and most importantly... don't get caught!
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

HAHAHAHAHAHA. The truth is I had some pets I could have brought back, but I knew absolutely nothing about them at that time. Now I'm prepared. I'll keep my eyes open for these elusive morphs. Too bad they all look yellowish green with my night vison. I could spot a patternless though .
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LEOs: 6.9.0
1.3 High Yellows-Barney,Betty,?,?
2.0 Hypo Tangerines-Bam-bam,Rex
0.3 SHCT's -Journey,Wiggy,Lil'bit
1.0 Rescued Normals -Shleprock
1.3Tremper Albinos Mr.Slate,?,?,?
1.0 Tang Tremp Albino - Rocky

hey bill

the main reason i keep nephrurus on sand is because its proven to be the only consistent substrate that they thrive/survive on? (plus its their natural substrate) they are less flexiable in terms of husbandry (compared to leos) so the wrong humdity/temps for a short period, or even stress related factors are a much bigger deal with nephrurus. for example- a female leo that gets a bad shed can still breed or lay, a nephrurus female with one bad shed gets totally thrown off, might stop ovulating/reabsorb the ova, stop eating, increases the chance of being egg bound etc.

yeah i've been lucky to produce a few nephrurus here and there, but compared to the time i've spent with them (almost as long as leos), there is so much more to learn. one difference is that the nephrurus community (if u can call it that) is not like the leo community, most keepers dont share "secrets" or give detailed advice. also, most nephrurus keepers (at least in the past) never posted pics or told people what they had (bragging is frowned upon?? i dont know haha ive always been humble/modest). its like i have a nice leo i can show a pic, but i rarely show pics of nephrurus? kinda weird actually...haha...even if u look at the ks photo gallery, very few pics of nephrurus or rare geckos are shown publicly and if so, its the same few people (most of the pics are very old too i might add). think most info/pics are kept "in the circle" LOL

-SFgeckos

I keep my Nephrurus on Reptisand, and I have been seriously considering moving my adult leopard geckos back to playsand. I bet it would cut my cleaning time down considerably. I used to keep all of my geckos on playsand and I, like a few others, never had any impaction issues with my leos, and I have pretty much always had a decent sized collection of them. The only thing I will do different this time is strain the playsand before I put it in my boxes.

So I guess it boild down to this: In my opinion sand is fine for healthy, adult (40 gram) leopard geckos. I certainly am not saying sand is better than paper towel or newspaprer, just no any worse. Ok, I'm done

BTW, Hi Jon!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I promise I can spell much better than that!
-----
Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Hi Kelli
you should try the way I do it, is fast clean and easy. I only use paper towel under the gecko house and live the rest with nothing, I use a vacume to suck all the poops out every day and I use quat plus to sterilize those spots every 10 days or so. It works very well for me and you should try it.
Regards Alberto
Few PICS to show you.

NP/

Once again no arguments will be started by this post

I have to agree with gaboon on this issue. If there is even a chance of loosing your gecko to impaction from keeping it on sand why even attempt it. Is it really worth loosing your pets over something like sand. Like gaboon said the actual terrain is mostly rocky with hard packed soil.

So once again why even risk having your pet die over something as simple as sand. Just don't use it.

i read everyones replies and opinions (u guys must be up way early since i was up at 6:30am, wait forgot im on the west coast!) eating breakfast now lol

i think everyone has valid points on the pros and cons, but its safe to say that each person has based their viewpoint from THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. i appreicate and value everyones thoughts and enjoy such conservations when its about sharing information and not about attacking each other.

i agree with gaboonkeeper (hey gregg, what eggs u got cooking?) that leopard geckos obviously don't live as long in the wild as they do in captivity- however, im not sure if impactions are the leading cause to shortening a wild animals life. there are many other factors, a few that kelli (hi back kel) mentioned such as disease, predators etc. i just wanted to throw out some other questions (dont know why i like doing this, its a bad habit lol)....ironic how female leos in the wild during egg laying need additional calcium/minerals, yet their only source is their substrate? so how does that play in the role of natural selection, for example bigger females need more calcium to lay more eggs yet that increases their chance of impaction??

but how do leopard geckos in the wild get their calcium/mineral supplements? naturally they ingest bits of substrate which may include particles of fine sand, soil etc...my personal opinion is that in captivity, the average keeper isn't supplementing freqently enough thus the animal seeks to find an alternate source of calcium/minerals etc. of course, if kept on paper towels, there is ZERO change of impaction from the substrate, however if kept on other ingestable substrates, it's only natural for the animal to ingest whatever is available in an attempt to meet their nurtitional requirements. i think given the choice between a bowl of calcium in a tank full of sand, most leopard geckos will ingest sand only because its naturally instinctive.

to answer aztec's question (hi bill hows it going), yes i do keep most of my other non leopard gecko species on sand or other substrates- and have yet to get an impaction. as stated above, i dont consider myself "lucky" just that i make sure everyone is supplemented well? (at least i tell myself that) i could easily show pictures of entire gecko rooms containing 500 nephrurus geckos which have all been kept on sand with no problems for a few years. i learned my husbandry/keeping techniques from some of the most experienced gecko keepers around and im always learning/trying out new things.

any more comments would be appreicated. i enjoy it when everyone comes together to share information and personal experiences. take care, hope to hear more thoughts

-SFgeckos

Hey Jon,
Nothing cooking yet but most of my adults have been introduced and have been copulating like crazy..... I will be putting the pair I got from you together early this spring..... Just want the female to pack on a couple more grams...... And my urban pair will be ready very soon...... I also have a female gaboon getting ready to drop...... She is going through pre birth shed as we speak...... I will be pretty busy soon....LOL..... Also, if you have any females for sale, drop me an email..... It is true enough to say that it is not a leading cause of death in wild leos but it does happen often enough...... Lets just say it is not rare...... I have seen wet leos (preserved)with impacted intestines.... The funny thing was I never saw any type of sand in the stomach....... Only in the small intestins........ I have also seen it atually caught up in the villa....... It was almost like a tiny stone lining in the intestin....... It is very good when these post go good and even when people disagree they are still respectful...... There are a few that try to discredit everything I say when they have not even done 1/8 of the hands on studying I have done....... There are however breeders like yourself that are not high on themselves and dont act like know it alls...... I think it sucks that I have done lots of leg work and when I try to tell people what I have found it is dicredited because I am not a known large scale breeder....... Anyone can read a "My leopard gecko" hand book but not everyone wants to put the time in to actually learn about the inner workings of the species they want to keep...... I can tell you every protine found in gaboon venom....... How many hot keepers do you think actually take the time to learn that????? Every one knows a gaboon can kill but I am the type to want to find out why it does...... Like I have said before, I have been doing this for over 20 years and have never had a problem with crickets giving my reptile pinworms or any bacterial infection...... Sure I have had some wild caught reptiles that had parasites but that is about it...... I have been feeding things mealworms for as long as I have been keeping reptiles and never had one crawl out of any of my animals........ Do you understand now, why I feel so strongly about these things????? I dont sit up at night just thinking of things to say to piss people off....... All I ask is for people to think before they jump on me and show some solid proof if they want to discredit me...... I dont want to hear that "my brothers friends cousin had this happen to his lizard"...... Or "I got a necro done and it was inconclusive but I know it was this or that, that got my lizard sick"......

Where is the preserved collection that includes Eublepharis? Please tell me where and who I need to contact about it. Studying some preserved specimins would be extremely helpful for a project myself and a friend are working on. PLEASE let me know who or where I need to call.
-----
Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

n/p
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LEOs: 6.9.0
1.3 High Yellows-Barney,Betty,?,?
2.0 Hypo Tangerines-Bam-bam,Rex
0.3 SHCT's -Journey,Wiggy,Lil'bit
1.0 Rescued Normals -Shleprock
1.3Tremper Albinos Mr.Slate,?,?,?
1.0 Tang Tremp Albino - Rocky