Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello are you sick and tired of venomoids we need to do somthing about it i just saw a buitiful green mamba and it was a venomoid this is twisted this needs o be stoped.we need to do somthing any sugestions.

This is certainly the most talked about and debatable subject on this forum; the bottom line is that it is difficult to take a middle of the road approach and even more difficult to talk about this subject in a rational manner because most folks on this forum go ballistic when the word "venomoid" is even typed. My wildlife center has many venomous herps and one venomoid that came to us via a confiscation. I have had this venomoid for many, many years and it has been the picture of perfect health (its a southern copperhead and one of the biggest you'll ever see). She is active, alert, a great feeder and basically just a gorgeous and healthy animal. There doesn't appear to be any problems with this snake as it relates to the surgical procedure that happened a number of years ago. Does that mean it is right? Am I advocating that it is okay to take the venom glands out of an otherwise healthy snake? If someone can't take care of a fully hot snake, should they be able to keep a venomoid? Does keeping a venomoid make you careless when it comes to proper handling of venomous snakes? Does the snake have a say in it? Is the procedure cruel? Are people who keep venomoids irresponsible? Are people who keep venomous snakes without keeping their own supply of antivenin equally irresponsible? The questions go on and on and on and on. One of the the keys to this argument is how it is done....there are chop shops and then there are professional veterinarians who know how to do it in a manner that brings little pain to the animal. But, in the end, it really boils down to ones own philosophy and for anyone to see that one way is right or wrong is, well, wrong in my opinion....of course, it is my opinion that most folks wanting to keep a venomous snake...SHOULDN'T

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

Especially the last part!
Terry

Oh that's right, venomous snakes should only be kept by zookeepers. So basically what you are saying is because you clean cages all day makes you better than any of the hobbyists? Let me ask you this, what do you do that is any different than ANYTHING a hotkeeper does? What makes you so damn better than anyone else taphillip? Many of us have degrees, many of us have been trained by experienced keepers, many of us have access to av. Please enlighten us as to why you are so great.

They are better than the general public....... In some cases they may be but in this forum is full of very knowledgable and and experianced keepers that, frankly, will run rings around 3/4 of the zoo keepers in the united states...... I have been on both sides of the fence and I like it much better in thr private sector..... One zoo I worked at had a pair of gaboon they were trying to breed for about 5 years...... I went there alot before they gave me a job there and ever time I explained to a keeper how to get them to breed they looked at me as if I had no clue....... Their explanation to me was that the pair was too old to breed.......LOL..... Well after getting a job in the reptile house I had the pair breeding in a week....... I was not allowed to handle and of the hots for a few months but was allowed to mist the cages and water them........ Could not even feed them for a long time....... Zoos are very clicky and most will not take animals from the private sector..... Nevermind take some advice....... I would talk to staff at work and they thought that anyone keeping hots outside of the zoos were pretty much asses....... I think it actually hurt their little egos.....LOL....... The second zoo I worked in was much better because it was privetly owned........ But now I have been at a job for 8 years that has nothing to do with herps....... Zoos are fun to work at but cant pay the bills like my job does....... I like to work and come home to my animals...... Well my point to all this is that because you work in a zoo does not make you any better or any more capable to keep these animals....... Infact I am willing to bet that many of us here can outclass any of your keepers...... I have a degree in bio but it really means nothing........ I feel that experiance is very important...... I have alittle over 12 years experiance with hots........ Never been envenomated or even bitten for that matter....... Like I said I have been on both sides so dont tell me zoo staff are better for keeping hots....... Actuall some zoo keepers are pretty ignorant and close minded....... They wont take advice from someone that has more expeiance than half their staff combined because the one giving the advice is not part of the zoo keeper click...... I want to know your reason for thinking you are more qualified to keep hots than some that does it privatly....... I have heard a few reasons and I want to see if yours are the same........ I bet it all boils down to your ego......

The statement made was
" most who want to keep venomous...SHOULDN'T"
That goes for a lot of zoo keepers as well.
Interesting enough. Until I started frequenting THIS forum I was an AVID supporter of private venomous collections. It wasn't until after some time here that it was made apparent that the only people who REGULARLY post here, it is about nothing more than egos. We all know how I feel about responsibility in this hobby, but look at venomous sites polls.
If it were illegal to keep venomous in your area would you continue keeping them? Most said yes..
Do you keep your own AV or rely on a Zoos? most said they rely on a zoo's.
It's irresponsible. Period.
I have many private keeper friends, associates etc. I have no problem with that, if done responsibly. My definition of responsible is different than most here. but it is my definition.
If people would just admit that they were part of a major problem of irresponsibility but said " hey it sucks, but I can't do much about it" that would at least be respectable. But they can't, they attack me for believing the things I believe. Oh well? I don't think that someone with 2 years of experience with maybe 12 venomous snakes qualifies them to have taipans, especially when the closest source of serum is from a close friend of mine. thus endangering his life. Listening to him talk on this forum shows his immaturity and inexperience. I honestly don't mean that as an attack of his character either . I've spoken with him before, he's a good knowledgable beginning keeper. That's not a bad thing guys, everyone has to start somewhere. I just wish he would work a little longer with knowledgable people before makeing a leap to some of these snakes.
Just look at every thread on this forum and I do mean every thread. There might be one person per thread that speaks with maturity and experience the rest are just trying to look better than the other. This is what makes the private people as a whole look bad. THere is always a few good apples in a pile of rotten ones. Same goes true for Zoos, there are many zoos that should not even have venomous snakes. Trust me, I have issues with the zoo community as well...So don't jump my ass for emphasizing the statement made by Rob,
"Most people that want to keep venomous snakes.. SHOULDN'T!"
Does that mean I was speaking to you? I don't know, lets see how you respond to constructive critisim, because if ones maturity level doesn't handle that, how are they going to handle venomous?
P.s Sorry Chance, I used you as an example just because of the last set of posts concerning you. You were the freshest topic. So no offence intended.
Terry

You got my Little ego here Gaboon keeper....
What is it that you consider "experienced"
My definition of experience is this.
One snake year of experience equals Careing for all aspects of one snake for one full year.
I do approximately 1100 handlings per week, Every week, All year.
As well as all aspects of care involved...
So yes I do have some room to talk here.
tj, from most of your posts, you are one that I consider to be responsible. So don't jump on me.
Terry

"It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts"

Terry, I have to agree with most of your points. I think I flew off the handle a little bit because it seems as though most of your posts are against hobbyists keeping hots. At least, that's what I read from most of them. I guess I felt as though the remark, "most people who want to keep venomous, shouldn't", was directed towards the people in here. When in reality, I agree. However, there are many capable keepers in here that should be able to keep hots.

A professional zoo environment with strict safety protocols that must always be observed by employees is generally a safer one in which to work with venomous, but it is not necessarily the best one for the animals. It certainly can be if there are keepers on staff who are very experienced in their care, but what happens to the animals when there is staff turnover? How about the zoo veterinarian, does he or she feel comfortable treating these animals? What if the staff veterinarian changes and the new vet isn't comfortable treating the venomous specimens?

I have seen staff turnover (including changing the staff vet) seriously affect the quality of care of venomous reptiles in a zoo setting. On the other hand, setups where there are experienced keepers and good veterinarians who stay at the same institution for many years are of very high quality that the private sector generally cannot match. Some zoos (not all) do have bottom-line budget policies or vets that don't work with hots, and they will euthanize and replace an animal rather than giving it proper veterinary care. I consider that a serious failing and in that respect some parts of the private sector are giving a much better standard of care.

The one thing you will not see at a zoo is total idiocy and hopelessly inadequate, insecure housing; that is something pretty much reserved for the private sector. A professional environment with a supervisor and employees tends to have a formal protocol structure that is always followed correctly.

I agree that it is absolutely unethical and irresponsible for the private sector to lean on a zoo's antivenom supply without getting their previous permission and participating financially in the stocking of their AV so they can plan in advance for another keeper's needs. It is not right to endanger other keepers' lives because you did not feel like doing the paperwork or spending the money to import your own supply.

As a former Zoo curator I have been on both sides of the fence too. In reguards to the two points that have risen here, both sides have valid points.

Rob is right. The majority of people that want to have venomous shouldn't. Think about it. For every responsible keeper out there I know or trained, there are dozens of untrained want-to-be's that scared the h--- out of me when you heard their reasons for going into this. Only a small percentage of venomous keepers (or snake people in general) are even on these forums on a regular basis. For example; in Florida, we have over 1,000 licensed (for V) keepers. Does it look like that many even talk here? I for one, favor mandatory training and licensing in every state.

Having been in a Zoo enviroment, I have to agree with the elitest additude that one finds there and also in museums. It is particularly irksome when when you realize that they are paid to work with snakes and have all the equipment (and anti-venom) supplied from the Zoo, and then frequently tell the rest of us what we have to spend our own money on.

Having been there, I can tell you that you meet a lot of people (customers) and most of them do not come off as intelligent, or responsible. In fact the majority beat on the glass (or their unsupervised children do)and tease the reptiles and other animals to get a reaction for their entertainment. There were numerous injuries to my animals by drunk and/or disorderly customers.

This does make it harder to appreciate it,when someone who does know what they are talking about shows up. There is a definite "us vs Them" additude, because you are in the position of showing animals to a public that does not appreciate the damage their ignorance can cause.

I think both sides need to sit back nd try to get what the other's are dealing with. Simply put;

Zoo people need to remember that some people in the private sector care just as much and may be more knowledgeable than you are.

The rest of us need to remember that Zoo people see (on a daily basis) the worst side of human and animal contact.

A little comunication and respect might be in order here from both sides.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I did not read the "most" people wanting to keep hot shouldnt..... I read too far ahead to notice that part...... My opologies...... Also I have tried to communicate with zoo keepers and they just dont want to hear anything until I tell them I work in two reptile houses...... At one of the zoos I worked at we had a trio of Aruba Island rattlesnakes, They would not let me pair them up because there was a chance of inbreeding....... My argument was that they are from a small island and that it is something that would happen anyway being that in the wild they do not have a huge distribution and that they live in pocketed populations...... The head keeper did not want to hear anything I said...... I guess I was not there long enough to get his respect...... I also said some zoo keeper have this bad additude not all...... Sorry if I offended anyone by my post but I have been on both sides and do understand both sides but I feel zoo keepers are the most arogant when it comes to collections in the private sector......
Gregg

"it really boils down to ones own philosophy and for anyone to see that one way is right or wrong is, well, wrong in my opinion...."

Contrary to popular belief morality is not relative. Right is right and wrong is wrong. If morality was subjective to opinion then it wouldn't be worth much.