Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm thinking ahead here, but I'm wondering at what age/size Moxie (Hermann's) could remain outside overnight in the summer--if actually feasible at all? He is almost 3" and nearly 90g, and will be a year old in May, if the hatch date I was given for him is correct. Our June-September nighttime lows here are average 50 degrees, so I would have to provide some sort of insulated night box at the least. His pen is covered, but I probably would lock him in his sleeping quarters just to be on the safe side, due to predators entering our yard. I was thinking of setting something up for him this summer so I could monitor the temps, with an eye toward letting him stay out next summer. Any ideas on what I could use for a sleeping box? A dogloo would be too big. My son has a hard-sided insulated lunch box big enough to hold a 6 pack--with air holes drilled in it, would something like that work? I could probably construct something, too.

Thanks for any and all ideas.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

He would probably have no poblem staying outside beginning this mid-spring if you could ensure no predators could get to him. As far as temperature, it seems odd to me that people seem to get so freaked out about letting a Mediterranean tortoise get below 70 degrees or whatever at night when their natural habitat in the wild routinely gets much cooler than that at night. As long as it warms up enough during the day, the cool nights won't bother them a bit. I have never lived where you are Sohni, but I imagine the days during spring and summer get almost as warm as they do here, if not warmer. Many people do not realize the winters in the inland Mediterranean are colder than winters in England. If you provide a good box for him to sleep in at night, he will be fine. If his pen is covered, why would you lock him in his sleeping box? What is the pen covered with? The best thing to cover a pen with is 1/2 inch wire netting or welded wire. Any animal that can get through that is going to be too small to harm the tortoise, but at the same time it allows plenty of sun through.

Like I said earlier, I use small carboard boxes filled with hay or dried grass for sleeping quarters for small tortoises and they work great. I have one for my baby desert tortoise and he loves it. You just seal it up and cut a hole in it just big enough for the tortoise to get in. He will dig into the dried grass and make a tunnel to sleep in that will provide plenty of shelter from the cold. Hay or dried grass has a very good insulating effect if you pack it densly enough. A wooden box will work too, like a small bird house. The lunch box will work too. Just cut out a hole in it big enough for him to get through and fill the box with hay. His box should be just big enough for him to get in and be able to turn around in. You don't want it too big. Of course, if you get a lot of rain, which you may in your area, the cardboard won't be so great. What I do is put a piece of wood over the box to protect it from the rain.

Now c'mon, you know how paranoid I am. I'm not concerned about him going below 70, as he sleeps at around 65 degrees, but we do have dips into the 50s throughout the summer. Our nighttime temperatures are considerably cooler than yours are, although for the most part daytime temps are probably warmer. I'm sure in a cozy nest box he would do fine.

The pen is covered with 1/2" mesh and latched, so maybe I'm worried for nothing. The problem is that our yard backs up to a creek, and possums, skunks, raccoons, cats, and foxes have access to our yard, although I've only seen possums and skunks so far. I'm not sure how hard it would be for a very determined raccoon to break into the pen--it would take some effort, but it maybe could be done. OK, I'm being a nervous nellie.

I'm still going to wait until June due to the possibility of heavy rain through May, but then I think I'll see how it works out.

Thanks for your advice, per usual, O Great Head.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

..As well as your inclination to be a "nervous Nellie" as you put it. I think I'll call you "Glass half empty Sohni." Heh heh.

I'm reminded of a brief routine by the late, great comedian Bill Hicks. (The guy was a genius and died WAY too young.) He did a bit about Adam and Eve right after God gives them the Garden of Eden and all it's perfection. His intention was to show one of the major difference between men and women.

Adam: You know Eve, we have everything we could possibly want here in Eden. Every need is instantly taken care of, we have healthful and delicious food, no one will bother us, perfect weather, perfect health, no enemies.

Eve (Sohni): Uhhhhh, yeah. (Long pause) It's really just not good enough, is it?

Moxie will be fine outside in the warmer months, even with occasional dips into the 50s. Hermann's are well-adapted to that type of weather fluctuation. Remember, he is not African, like the sulcata and the Leopard.

It would be hard for me to say how difficult it would be for a skunk or raccoon to break into your pen, since I haven't seen your setup. Is the wire tacked down well? If you pull on it, does it seem to want to come right off? Raccoons are pretty strong for their size, but they aren't gorillas. And also, tortoises don't give off that much of a scent, so a predator might not even bother. Their feces has a scent of course, but that may or may not attract a predator. Just tack the wire down with nails or large staples and there should be no problems. Okay, Queenie?

"O Great Head." I like that. "The Great One" is also acceptable.

You realize, of course, "O Great Head" might refer to your ego, heeheehee.

I'm actually an optimist, but also a worrier, so I guess that makes me a neurotic optimist. Too bad I don't have a DSM-IV to see what that means, lol.

The top of the pen is 1/2" wire mesh stapled and sandwiched between 2 pieces of pine furring strips, which are then screwed together, with L brackets at the corners. A 6' x 2" panel is permanently fixed to the pen, and then a 6' x 4' reinforced panel is hinged so it can be lifted up. As I said, I think it's safe, although a really determined raccoon with plenty of time on his paws could probably break into it.

We are supposed to hit 70 degrees around the 18th. Spring is coming!
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

"You realize, of course, "O Great Head" might refer to your ego, heeheehee."

Ha ha, funny girl. Oh yes, that did occur to me. But really, I'm not an egotist, I just play one on the message boards! I'm actually humble to a fault.

"Neurotic optimist." I like that. Can I steal it and act like I thought of it? I would have to admit that I am a member of that club as well. When things go well, 49 percent of me rejoices, and the other 51 percent expects a giant foot to come down and squash me any minute.

From what you say, it sounds to me like you have no worries about anything getting in to your pen. Heck, if you're that worried about it, hook up some wires from an electrical outlet to the top of the pen. That should keep the little varmints away!

Of course you can use my phrase, but you understand that if I don't get credit for it, I may have to sue you for emotional distress--that's worth about $5 million, wouldn't you say? That would let me buy my "Tortoise Acres" in Sebastopol!

I hate to admit it, but I've actually thought about that electric fencing idea, only for indoors. Eventually I'm going to build a tortoise table, but to make sure it's protected from the cats, I was thinking about building a wire lid and electrifying it in some way. I'd have to do some testing on that one. Right now Moxie is in a closed-off room, but I really don't think my son would be willing to share with 6 snakes, 2 lizards, AND a 4' x 8' tortoise table, lol.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I would say 5 mil is about the going rate for emotional distress nowdays, give or take. I mean, if that old lady who sued McDonald's could get that much for a too-hot cup of coffee, why not? I promise to credit you as a "contributer" if I use your, er, I mean OUR, catchy little phrase.

That's about the third time I've heard Sebastopol mentioned either here on this board or in "real life" lately. It must be a nice place. I take it that it is nearby you? It kind of sounds like a trendy English band with precious little talent. "Ladies and Gentlemen, the band you've paid WAY too much hard-earned money to see and likely won't hear from again as long as you live because they are a bloody flash-in-the-pan and everyone knows it but them, the one and only...Sebastopol!!!"

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to get rid of the cats than to make an electric lid to the tortoise's enclosure to keep them out? Don't answer that, I know you don't want to get rid of the cats. It still seems like a very strange idea for inside the house, though. You are almost as weird as me. Now, I said ALMOST!

I went over to a guy's house that had about 200 tortoises and turtles about 2 years ago. He used to advertise all the time on Kingsnake, but I won't mention his name. He had a bunch of wires around all of his pens and told me to be very careful around the electric fence. It looked like a freakin' Nazi concentration camp in his back yard! As I was about to leave, wouldn't you know it, I unthinkingly put my arm right up against one of the wires. I jumped back, but then I realized that nothing had happened. The guy looked all sheepish and said that his wife must have turned off the current. I think the whole thing was just for looks to deter thieves.

Sebastopol is named after a Russian (?) city, Sevastopol. There were a lot of Russian settlements on the coast, including Fort Bragg. It used to be famous for its apples, especially Gravensteins, but naturally the bottom fell out of the apple market, so a lot of the orchards were torn up to plant grapes--now there's a grape glut, so people are planting olives, blah, blah, blah. It's a nice little town, about 9,000 people. Also hideously expensive. Charles Schulz is buried there (across from my kids' school, actually). It's also home to Sonoma County Reptile Rescue (which is one person, I think).

No, can't get rid of the cats, so I'll have to work around them. The boys would be thrilled if I had an electrified tortoise table--they wanted me to buy them electric fencing to play army with (yeah, right).
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I kind of know how your feel. That area is full of predators. I used to live there and I saw them almost everyday. I would be a tiny bit cautious too!!! So are you taking Moxie out during the day now? I wanted to take Herman out but I'm afraid it is too cold for him.

I take Moxie out in a sunny area of the yard for 30-60 minutes when I can. He usually basks for a few minutes, then trundles off and wanders around. It's good exercise for him after being cooped up (compared to his outdoor pen). It doesn't seem to be too cold for him, but since yours is such a little one, I would take him out, but make sure he's in a warm spot.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I will try that, thanks. How old is Moxie? Is he a Hermann's tort? Also...this may sound stupid...but when I finally have the nerve to let the little guy out...of course I will be sitting outside watching him...but I am worried about all the crows we have around our yard. Do you think they will try and swoop down with him out there? I'm sure I am being way to paranoid!!!! But I am a new mommy!

Moxie is about 9 months old, according to the date I was given, but he might be a bit older. He is about 7 cm and 85g, so if he is only 9 mos., he's pretty big for his age. He was 6.5 cm and 50g when I got him in September.

In the summer I put him in a covered pen, but the sun doesn't hit it very well until about mid-March or April, so for now I let him roam around and keep a VERY careful eye on him. They move faster than you think, and yes, birds could potentially be a problem. I've seen blue jays watching us from trees, so I know they notice the movement. Since Herman is very small, you could put him in something like a Rubbermaid blanket box and let him trundle around in that--just make sure the sides are low so he doesn't overheat. At his age, he wouldn't have to wander much to get tired, anyway. Moxie's been going to bed much earlier since he's been able to get some exercise outside, lol.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko