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Drymarchon Corais Melanarus - Black Tail Cribo (My Big Green Monster)

areyoudown7 Feb 07, 2004 01:28 PM

Hi all,

Just wanted to say hello to all the Drymarchon enthusiasts. I'm just one of those who has been fascinated by Drymarchon since I was a little skinny poor kid living in SoCal back in the mid-70's.

I'm an old friend of Chuck Elliot whom I've not talked to in a bit. Chuck and collaborated (his 8ft Male/my 6.5ft Female Uni-color) on a very successful exercise which saw my Female Uni-Color produce 17 beautiful babies. Anyways here is a pic of the only Male which was a result of that encounter. He is a huge guy names hurcules.

Anthony McCray

Replies (18)

Keith Hillson Feb 07, 2004 10:33 PM

>>Hi all,
>>
>>Just wanted to say hello to all the Drymarchon enthusiasts. I'm just one of those who has been fascinated by Drymarchon since I was a little skinny poor kid living in SoCal back in the mid-70's.
>>
>>I'm an old friend of Chuck Elliot whom I've not talked to in a bit. Chuck and collaborated (his 8ft Male/my 6.5ft Female Uni-color) on a very successful exercise which saw my Female Uni-Color produce 17 beautiful babies. Anyways here is a pic of the only Male which was a result of that encounter. He is a huge guy names hurcules.
>>
>>Anthony McCray
-----

areyoudown7 Feb 09, 2004 01:16 AM

I apologize, I thought there was a simple way to post pics but apparently I must have a WEB sharing program. Once I obtain this I'll definetely post the pics. The Father was a BlackTail, my Female was a 6.5ft Uni-Color.

Anthony
-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

areyoudown7 Feb 09, 2004 01:29 AM

I have posted a pic of my "Green Monster Melanarus" on the Reptile Snake picture gallery since I did not have WEB sharing software at this time. Again this is a result from Chuck Elliot's 8ft Blacktail and my 6.5ft Uni-Color. His name is Hercules and I've never bred him.

Anthony

-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

areyoudown7 Feb 09, 2004 01:35 AM

Hi All,

Here is a second shot of Hercules

Anthony

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Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

Dann Feb 09, 2004 05:04 AM

Good looking snake Anthony. That guy looks like he would sire some awesome babies with a good-looking mate.

Dann

areyoudown7 Feb 09, 2004 12:34 PM

Hello Dann,

I totally agree the orginal female died about a year ago; she was absolutely striking. He is agressive so I need a large female to breed with.

I'd prefer a CB female but until then he is a great pet. I'm picking up 2 yellowtails tomorrow, that'll be interesting.

Take care

Anthony
-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

Doug T Feb 09, 2004 09:22 PM

but I STRONGLY recommend that if that snake is a cross of 2 different subspecies, that you leave him as a pet only and don't breed him.

I'm not the "Breed Police", but I do think that some things are better left alone. Hybrid crosses, especially with drymarchon, are best left as display animals and never bred.

If you want to discuss this off the forum, I'll gladly do it. I know you have my email.

Doug Taylor

areyoudown7 Feb 10, 2004 05:53 AM

Doug,

I respect your opinion and I feel the same way about 2 different subspecies but, show me evidence that a Uni-Color and a BlackTail are of a different species? Chuck Elliot and I did considerable research and they are from much of the same geographic region; the difference is purely color pattern my friend

Anthony McCray
-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

Doug T Feb 10, 2004 11:39 AM

Anthony, It's not just color. The scientific community has accepted D.c.unicolor and D.c.melanurus as distinct subspecies for a LONG time.

What you are proposing here is that since you and Chuck Elliot couldn't find documentation that they are separate subspecies, the accepted Drymarchon complex is wrong and that D.c.unincolor and D.c.melanurus are the same subspecies.

They are the same species, but distinct enough to be different subspecies. Crossing subspecies is hybridizing.

Wolfgang Wuster recently proposed some changes in the Drymarchon complex. Maybe we can get him to give his thoughts.

Your snake is pretty. Lots of hybrids are pretty. They can make good pets too. Sadly, your snake is a subspecies cross (hybrid). I strongly recommend you don't breed him. At least wait until you can find some herpetologist who agrees with you that what most of us mere hobbyists agree are distinct subspecies, are in fact the same.

Doug T
-------------------------------------------------------- respect your opinion and I feel the same way about 2 different subspecies but, show me evidence that a Uni-Color and a BlackTail are of a different species? Chuck Elliot and I did considerable research and they are from much of the same geographic region; the difference is purely color

oldherper Feb 10, 2004 02:24 PM

I don't necessarily agree with the practice, but I don't think this one is quite as bad as some I've seen. D.c.melanurus x unicolor is, after all, a naturally occurring intergrade. I would be willing to be that fully 75% of the "Blacktails" on the market today are intergradient with unicolor somewhere along the line.

At least it's not a Cornsnake x Sinaloan Milksnake hybrid. If it was something like a D.c.couperi x corais intergrade, then I would be raising cain too. At least his cross occurs in the wild.

Disclaimer:
[edited out]

______

Post edited to remove inflammatory remarks.

Edited on February 12, 2004 at 10:41:54 by phwyvern.

areyoudown7 Feb 10, 2004 06:07 PM

oldherp,

I made a typo but that was the point I was trying to make these 2 subspecies bred in the wild gaurantee ya. The point is I have never cross bred and since I'm new to this forum I don't need a label as a cross breeder from a typo due to something that happened in 1995 when my beautiful large melanarus pictured was weaned. He is celebrating his 10 year anniversay this spring in fact. Now if I could find a large enough Female he won't beat up while breeding.

Anthony
-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

areyoudown7 Feb 10, 2004 06:03 PM

Doug respect your opinion but this is getting out of hand. I made a typo as I was thinking of my Uni-Color female which I bred with Chuck's Uni-Color male. I meant to state that the picture I provided is our Chuck/Mine 8ft male/6.5ft Female melanarus which dropped 17 healthy animals. This photo of Hurcules is pure blacktail/melanarus.

Trust me both Chuck and I know a thing or two about Drymarchon Corais and have done considerable research ourselves over 15 year ago. What's funny is I remember visting Fred Albury when he was selling his Couperi in 1990 while he was living in San Diego with his cute little daughter and Wife.

Sorry for the confusion but I see no need to run this thing into the ground especially since I've never been on this forum, didn't know it was so sensitive. So now that it's clear that no cross breeding occured here; let's move on.

PS My dead Female was the most colorful Melanarus that several have stated they've seen.

Hope this helps

Anthony
-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

Doug T Feb 10, 2004 06:45 PM

The "forum" as a whole isn't that sensitive. But there are a few "hot-button" topics that get quick, passionate responses.

I reread the entire thread and I'm still confused. So I'll leave the topic with this: If you're not looking to cross subspecies, breed a specimen that is a cross with one that isn't, or anything along those lines, I'm pleased as punch, I wish you the best of luck in your Dry' breeding projects, and you have my sincerest appologies if I have done anything to have labled you a hybrid breeder.

I agree that there are intergradization zones for many of the subspecies. Perhaps it's worth a separate thread so the explanation that defines the difference between a intergrades and hybrids. Although simple in concept, it tends to be misunderstood by lots of folks.

Doug T

oldherper Feb 11, 2004 08:45 AM

Doug,
I agree with you. In fact, one of the most maddening things in keeping Drymarchon is trying to find a good, pure Blacktail or Unicolor. They apparently intergrade widely in the wild so most of the imports are intergrades and there has been little effort in captive collections to keep them separate and pure. That is a shame. Either subspecies unto it's own is a beautiful specimen, both are much preferable to an intergrade. As you said, the intergrades make great pets, but I don't necessarily think that they should be intentionally crossed incaptivity. That being said, to me at least, this cross being produced in captivity doesn't seem to be quite as bad as crossing subspecies that never intergrade in the wild.

D.c.melanurus and D.c.unicolor are still separate subspecies, no matter what anyone says, and will remain so until sufficient DNA data shows that they are not distinct enough to be considered separate subspecies. At that point, they would be relegated to the status different color morphs of the same subspecies. I have my doubts that will happen. I have the utmost respect for Chuck Elliot and his expertise and knowledge in the husbandry and breeding of Drymarchon (he is one of the best), but I sincerely doubt that the "studies" mentioned in the earlier post included enough field work and DNA analysis to come to a scientifically sound conclusion that the two subspecies are one and the same.

I do not condone and would not ever encourage the crossing in captivity of any two subspecies, species, or genera. That, however, is just my opinion. It is something that I have never done and never will, but it isn't illegal. And, I think that there are varying degrees of "wrongness" attached to the practice depending on whether or not natural intergrade occur, and depending upon how the offspring are represented.

As far as the differences between hybrids and intergrades, that shouldn't take a whole 'nuther thread. As you said, it's not a difficult concept.

areyoudown7 Feb 11, 2004 06:52 PM

Again,

You are responding off of an incorrect assumption. There was no cross breeding that was attempted or performed. Read the emails please and please stop making myself and Chuck Elliot appear to have performed cross breeding. My typo was just that a typo I bred my 6ft female Uni-Color with Chucks 7ft Uni-Color, I also bred my striking 6.5ft female Melanarus (previous owner "Dorothy Delise" then President of San Diego CA Herpetology society)with Chucks huge 8ft melanarus 10 years ago; the huge offspring is in the photo I supplied. He is 100% melanarus and awesome.

Thank you

Anthony

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Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

oldherper Feb 12, 2004 06:26 AM

I have posted a pic of my "Green Monster Melanarus" on the Reptile Snake picture gallery since I did not have WEB sharing software at this time. Again this is a result from Chuck Elliot's 8ft Blacktail and my 6.5ft Uni-Color. His name is Hercules and I've never bred him.

Anthony,

This is where the "confusion" is coming from. In the above post you stated that the snake pictured was the result of a cross between aD.C.melanurus belonging to Chuck and your D.c.unicolor. So either that's a typo or you did, in fact, cross subspecies.

areyoudown7 Feb 12, 2004 03:25 PM

If you look at my several emails it clearly states this was a typo as I did breed both Uni-Colors and Melanarus with Chuck Elliot. No cross breeding for the last time.

Anthony
-----
Anthony McCray
SoCal/NorCal
Email: areyoudown7@aol.com

oldherper Feb 12, 2004 03:45 PM

I understand...I was just pointing out where the confusion came in. No reason to get upset over it.

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