Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, My female Savu Python is gravid. She ovulated right before christmas, had her pre-lay shed on January 15th. Today was day 22 after shed and still no eggs. So i took her in to see the vet. He did an x-ray and there are 11-12 eggs (a few are probably slugs). He wants to wait 7 days before we do anything drastic like a c-section. I am on pins and needles. Has anybody heard of a snake going longer than 21 days after shed to lay?

Everything is ok with her, temps, humidity. I even gave her a second box today, in case the first one is not to her liking.

ARG!!! I just can't take this. lol. Any words of encouragement or advice are helpful.

...the vet visit was probably more detrimental to her than anything at this point. She's going to lay anytime so leave her alone as much as possible. Give her a box she can snuggle tightly into and keep it dry inside but spray don't the rest of the cage heavily each evening. 22 days is not out of the typical range, especially if she was at somewhat lower temps during gestation of the eggs. I know you meant well, but it is often best to just leave them alone and let them work it out. Obviously there is a fine line we all must ride when it comes to the decision to finally pack them up and seek some form of veterinary attention. I usually wait till the bitter end as most vets are less than helpful with reptile related issues in most areas of the USA. I have vets here that occasionally consult with me and other "amateur" keepers locally when they know they've stepped out of primary range of their expertise (dogs and cats). Good luck with her...I am sure all will work out fine. Just start expecting to wake up to eggs any day now. Be sure your incubator is fried up and running accurately.
Again, good luck!
-Yasser
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" be sure your incubator is FRIED up and running accurately."
i realize it was probably just a typo,but i thought that that was too funny, lmao!

no post

I actually have a darn good reptile vet. Granted even he told me I was being a tad paranoid but he also knows how well I take care of my animals.

Let me give you a tad more information.

1. Not too many people are breeding Savus, so the information on their gestation is not well documented as say Ball Pythons. I was going on what is TYPICAL for pythons.

2. It is very hard to palpate Savus because of their muscle mass. We could not tell where the eggs were, or if there were any. Only a mass was found near her tail.

3. While these are my first snake eggs, I live with somebody who has bred snakes for years. When he got worried, I got paranoid. Especially, when he is not normally a "take it to the vet" type of person.

Never in my life would I have expected to get beat up for taking an animal to a qualified herp vet. All I was asking was other people's experiences with how long gestation might take.

What mistake was made with taking the animal to the vet?

Or again, was it the fact that Steph did not call upon the great gods of kingsnake before visiting the vet?

I am sorry, but again, this idea that taking a snake you have a concern about to a qualified vet is a BAD idea is proposterous. She had concern. Her roommate had concern. So what do we all do from now on, eh? Sit around and say, "Well, I'm concerned about the health of my snake at this time and so is someone else who has bred snakes for years, but since she isn't near death, I'll wait it out until she is?" Is that what we are supposed to do now??? Just WAIT for our snakes to get really bad off before taking them in for vet consultation?

You know, I think you all are belittling someone for absolutely no reason. What a great community we are in when taking a snake to the vet is a mistake. Reminds me why I stay off of the kingsnake boards for the most part these days.

Yasser knows what he's doing when breeding pythons. He is not belittling anyone, just trying to help Lunar-Reptiles have a successful clutch. Both Yasser and Justin offered their advice, as it was asked for. Didn't seem offensive at all to me.

Tim

Really?

Because I would see being told that you should not have taken your snake to the vet when you were concerned as total prepostery as well as offensive.

And yes, I am aware Yasser has been breeding pythons for some time and he has some beautiful Scrubs. So have I, and I can say, if any of my chondros go much over what is expected from shed to laying, you bet your rear end I would have her into the vet.

My point is, Justin and Yasser, while possibly being well meaning, told this person they were wrong for taking the snake to the vet. So my point is, are we to avoid vet consultation now with our animals until it is nearly too late(like Justin said, I wait until the last possible minute to go to the vet)?

Again, I ask the question that no answer was given for. What was the problem for her to take in her snake that she had concerns over into a qualified vet? So nothing proved to be wrong, so what? Again, what is the problem? Noone has bothered to answer that with a straight answer, only the all-too-familiar forum attitude of "we know what we're talking about or so and so knows what they are talking about and what you did was detrimental the snake and her eggs" but yet no reason as to WHY it is was wrong or detrimental.

Sincerely,

Rob Hill, who is reminded why kingsnake forums are no longer on the daily viewing list

It was Yasser who said, "I usually wait till the bitter end as most vets are less than helpful with reptile related issues in most areas of the USA."

There are three local vets I have used that I would trust without question, and one of those just so happens to be the same one Steph is using. So I guess I have the luxury of not having/choosing to wait until my herps are on death's door before seeking veterinary consultation or treatment. Of course, even if the vet was more than the 45 minute drive I make now, I would make it there with an animal I have a suspicion of.

I am definitely NOT a take it to the vet for nothing person, but when I have a suspicion or concern, it usually pans out as something and I would rather it be handled early than wait until it's too late. Guess I'm one of the few that still holds that attitude.

I stand by my advice, as this was tailored to her question. It was not a sick individual and the snake was within the normal time to lay. Of course it was her decision, but it may have been detrimental to the laying process. I hope you can see the point in that, whether you agree or not, it can be detrimental to take a snake that is about to lay eggs to a vet. WIth your reaction, maybe you should avoid forums. I was just trying to offer some advice for future application.
Justin J

I felt like I was belittled for taking my animal to the vet.

The night before Thanksgiving I lost my chondro. He had a mild URI, went into convulsions and died. At that time I was given h*** because I hadn't run him to the vet when he first made a popping noise. I just can't win. Personally, I learned from that experience. If I think it needs a vet, it gets one BEFORE the problem gets out of hand. Should I have waited? Maybe, Maybe not. What I can tell you was that the x-ray showed a rather large egg, that has three eggs behind it. The vet is a tad concerned over the overly large egg. If I had waited and she only laid 8 eggs/slugs. I would have left it at that because that is all I was expecting out of her. The last few would have remained inside and I would have had a massive problem. NOW, I do know that if she passes only 8 and more don't follow in a relative timely fashion, there is a problem.

I also remember a time when anyone suspected a problem that they were told to go to a qualified herp vet. So what changed on these boards?

BTW, she has still not laid her eggs and YES I am still worried and you can bet your backside that if she has not laid by this weekend, I will be back in touch with my vet. Maybe not for drastic surgery (even he said that is a last resort) but just to keep him updated so he can make the decisions on how to proceed. I could care less if I get one hatchling out of her at this point. I just want her to be ok. Is that such a crime?

Nope, not a crime or a problem at all. I am amazed that so many people here THINK it is.

And yes, like she has pointed out, the main answer to any health concerns on this and all of the other kingsnake forums not too long ago was, "take it to see a qualified vet." Now it seems to be, "wait until it's about to die before taking it to a qualified vet." Why? Is there a sudden mistrust of herp vets? Are people too cheap to do it and think noone else should either? Is it too much of a pain? Why? Why was it wrong for Steph to take her Savu Python to the vet?

taking the animal out of its comfortable nesting area and getting transported, prodded and inspected by the vet might add to her inability to lay the eggs. Since the female is still within "normal" egg laying time frames I am guessing he meant that waiting a little longer before disrupting the females nesting "MAY" have been more appropriate. If I'm wrong and Yasser felt differently he will probably respond himself if he thinks he needs to.

people have a hell of a time breeding them thats why plus there just a big glorified scrub peeps dont like to hear that but its the truth......almost impossible to get cb animals and there cooling cycle is pretty extreme.

First let me start by saying what I said was my opinion based on my experiences with many vets over many years in my local area. Never did I say that is true of all vets. Second, believe me, I don't need words put in my mouth for me. I NEVER said she was wrong.
Also, for the record, there have been three detailed articles written about the captive reproduction of the Sawu Python not to mention a handful of other websites that have more or rehashed info. Two published articles I can think of now were written by Dave an Tracy Barker for the Vivarium and another I beleive was written by Damon Salcies (sp?) as well. And I am not just talking out my A$$ here. I was once in your shoes, researching any and all info on Sawu Pythons as I once maintained a very large group of them for a few years up until about 18 months ago.
Most python species, specifically Liasis pythons have been known to deposit eggs within 17-37 days from the info I have come up with. 22 days is well within the earlier range of that span and therefore I was merely offering up the idea that maybe it wasn't really time to panic. Much of this variable span of time is in direct correlation to how much optimal basking temperature that snake is exposed to after and possibly before the prelay shed. Perhaps my words were a bit on the harsh side for the sake of getting the point across. But at the same time, I have seen firsthand how well vets with fancypants degrees can help you kill your snake just a little bit faster for a price. Maybe I am a bit harsh with my words again just because I feel so strongly about it. But don't forget, this is my opinion based on my experiences and EVERYONE is entitled to one of their own based on their experiences.
And believe me, if I wished to offend someone, they (and all of the rest of this little world) will know it.
Regardless of whether you took offense to my adice, I still wish you the best of luck and if you wish to still hear any of my advice, I am also still here to help.
-Yasser
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"Most python species, specifically Liasis pythons have been known to deposit eggs within 17-37 days from the info I have come up with. 22 days is well within the earlier range of that span and therefore I was merely offering up the idea that maybe it wasn't really time to panic. Much of this variable span of time is in direct correlation to how much optimal basking temperature that snake is exposed to after and possibly before the prelay shed."

Thank you, THIS is the kind of information that I was looking for. I was in contact with John Hollister and the zoo in England that recently hatched Savus. Problem is that that neither was really trying to breed theirs (and Johns was a few years ago so he doesn't remember what he did). I was mearly going by an average of 14-21 days after shed because that is typical for alot of pythons.

As for the comment that breeding them is difficult because they need an extreme cooling cycle.....They must not because they were given the same cycle as the chondros in the same room...Almost none. They were put together because I needed cage space for a newer Savu just out of quarentine. I never even saw them mating. I just noticed she was swollen and HUGE right before christmas. That was when we figured she was ovulating.

My choice of vets......just so you know. I am a real "you know what" when it comes to a vet treating my reptiles. If I thought he didn't have a clue I wouldn't be at that vet. Dr. Colby was given the third degree about reptiles before he had the chance to touch mine. He definitly knows what he is talking about. Again, he told me I was being a tad paranoid about her too. My worst fear is losing an animal because it was eggbound. Oh yeh and when I took her out of the cage, she was not dragged out of the nest box, she was out sitting on top of the darn thing, looking at me. If she had been spending more time in the nest box instead of UNDER it (silly snake), I would not have been worried.

My biggest problem has been that it is just my darn luck to breed an animal that doesn't have much documentation on it as my first snake.

There are many folks out there who are working with Sawu Pythons as well and the info is out there but not just on websites. There are many folks including Dave Barker and Dr. Chris Carmichael that have some solid knowledge on this species and their breeding. Also, if you wish to work with more of them in the future, Bushmaster Reptiles as well as Ben Siegel and Mark Lucas all have CH/CB babies available every year.
I am glad to hear you have access to a good reptile vet. That is a rarity in many places. Maybe I am an A$$ (It's in my name)for saying it again but I know many folks around the country who would love to have vet vet that is interested in snakes for patients.
But don't worry too much about this. Rare/rarely bred or not, they breed like all other pythons really. Not too much different aside from small clutches and early breeding season.
Breeding snakes is not rocket science like everyone seems to try to make it out to be. These critters have been doing fine without us for a very long time in the wild.

If you wish to call me later this evening, perhaps after 7 PM PST, I can maybe discuss all if this in much more detail. I also have a few other questions for you.
My phone no. is located on our website linked below.
I hope to hear from you.
-Yasser

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If a snake is removed from it's comfy little cage and stressed by handling, it could throw a wrench in the whole biological action of laying eggs. The gravid female will begin production of a contraction stimulating hormone that also enables them to burn sugars rapidly to aid in this stressful time. The secretion of this hormone only last perhaps a day as most females will typically be done within 24 hours of laying the first. It is well known that gravid colubrids, if darmatically disrupted in this time, will stop pushing out eggs and then the contractions come to a stop (when the initially secreted hormones wear off) and then you end up with an eggbound female. Getting those contractions restarted is usually the next way to fix this by administering a synthetic contraction stimulating hormone such as Oxytocin or other tocins along with some sugars to burn.

-Yasser
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I agree with Yasser. I definately know how you feel and I get a little impatient or worried when things don't happen like they "should", but I always screw things up when I try to interfere. Just let her do her thing, and learn from it so you don't make the same mistakes next time. Good luck.
Justin J

I am just curious because one of the most common answers to most health-related concerns on the forums here used to be, "if you are concerned, take your animal into a qualified herp vet." Now it's, "you shouldn't have taken her to the vet as it was more detrimental to her health?" Are we now not supposed to take our animals into the vet when we are first concerned and think there could be a problem? Should we wait until a possible problem is very evident before we risk the vet exam? If your snake had a respiratory problem, would you wait until the snake was drooling profusely and open mouthed breathing before you sought help, or would it be after you noticed the first few wheezes and pops in its breathing? For most of us here, I am willing to bet it would be the latter. Waiting until the very last minute or until you SEE the problem develop can be very detrimental to a snake because I'm sure we all know that a situation is 10 times worse when the symptoms of a problem are extremely evident in snakes than when they first appear(drooling and open-mouthed breathing in a URI versus a few clicks and pops for instance). Or should she maybe have contacted the "gods of kingsnake" first before her vet?

I find this all very funny because had she lost this python due to complications and posted that she thought earlier on their might have been a problem many people here(not necessarily either of you) would be crowing from the rooftops that she was aweful for not taking the snake into the vet.

Steph was concerned with the health of her snake. She took the snake into a qualified vet to ascertain if her concerns were well founded. I don't see the problem.