Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The area Mitch is talking about (SW Georgia) has some of the best remaining natural habitat of its type in the Eastern US - remember, this is also where they are finding monster Indigos too. That part of GA is SOOO close to Tallahassee and the Apalachicola to the west. There are massive wetlands, huge, very large moist to dry longleaf pine savannas, etc.

I'v done tons of rare plant work in this whole area, found some incredibly rare plants and it's my favorite place in North America - the Florida Panhandle over to Jacksonville, FL...then head up in to GA about 30 miles - that area is some of the most awesome types of habitats filled with plenty of cool critters of all sorts and it's still pretty damm wild too!

Sooo...I've said it before and I'll say it here again, the person who - if they do - catches the largest Eastern will likely catch it the area from the area from Jackson, Gulf, Washington, Bay Cos., etc. north into GA a bit and then east over to Jacksonville, again poking up into GA a bit (to just north of the Okefenokee Swamp area). I've asked before but I don't know...did the largest Eastern on record come from this area? I don't know but wouldn't be surprised. Like I say, I myself have found a couple of very, very rare plants that haven't been seen in 75 years or so that have been found in these areas in the last 5 years and the same potential holds for herps too.

What folks who find this story incredible - or any story of a 7'+ Eastern - must remember is that N. Florida has something like 1.7 million acres of conservation land (not counting areas just across the state line in GA that are probably another 500,000 acres) and much of it is in one huge swath at a time; that provides massive potential habitat for all types of critters and no doubt in my mind that the mack daddy of Easterns is there somewhere.

Mitch calls sw Georgia SOWEGA...well, I grew up in LA, not Los Angeles, but lower Alabama!!

And if I get back to Bay/Gulf Co. like I just might here in a a couple of months, I'll be on the prowl for Easterns...hold on to your hats boys because I'm going to make a mission to find as many Easterns as I can in the wild and collect a choice few.

-John, A.K.A Colebra del rey

I'll agree with that. We are located in Jacksonville, FL and hit most of the areas you speak of regularly. Although we encounter many hots, racers and waters, kings though are very few and far between (at least in FL). I hear time and again from others that it should not be so difficult to find many kings for example right here in Duval County (County said by many consisting of the largest land mass in the Country). Although we kept a few kings from this area years ago we have not been able to locate any new blood in over 3 years. Most local people know of my interest in finding a few but are now sitting back as well trying to figure out where they have all gone. Seems to be the story with all Florida Kings these days.

Georgia on the other hand is a different story. We come across far more herps once over the border as many of these roads that circumvent the Forests and Parks weave in and out of the borders of both States. There are some areas that are still extremely populated with hots at certain times of the year that much caution need be taken when hiking. I have noticed though in some areas the rattler populations have gone through the roof and it raises at least my question as to whether this could be a sign of local kingsnake populations diminishing from keeping these rattlers in check.

About 10 years back while entering one of the Okefenokee entrances we came upon a DOR Indigo that almost spread across both lanes of the road starting from right under the Welcome sign. Easily spotted by us and I would bet someone deliberately ran the snake over. That was the largest Indigo I ever saw and up until that point in time I never realized just how LARGE one of those guys could become. Unfortunate end for such an impressive herp yet on our way out of the park not more than maybe 10' from the Indigo we came across a large DOR cornsnake.

We have since become somewhat use to seeing DOR herps as we see them all the time in some areas. In others we no longer see any DOR yet in those same areas we no longer see any alive as well.

We rarely have ever collected a herp from the wild in Florida and I believe GA protects all its non-venomous. I would suggest if you can still locate some Locale Specific kings from Florida go to it as soon as you can because in my opinion they do not have a chance in most of the areas they once slithered.

Rich Hebron

I used to live in Jax and that's my favorite area in the Southeast (St. Auggie/Jax) - I'm trying my dammdest to make it happen (I'm a die-hard surfer) but I may get closer soon by moving to Panama City Beach...maybe.

I agree for the most part, you have to get over towards Madison/Jackson Cos. east of Tallahassee to see Easterns with any regularity - and that includes the bordering counties in GA.
I never saw any kings of any sort in Nassau County the whole time I was in the field, Baker Co. either for that matter. Once you get west of Lake City and north into GA things change alot in terms of seeing Easterns.

I'm curious as to how far I can catch an Eastern in the FL panhandle?!

-John

I agree John the biggest boys probably come from GA but there are exceptions like Jeff's 7' MD Eastern he has seen and a Howies big NC animal he has also seen. Did you ever find out about that possible GA female you have ? I think if that old GA is willing I would use him this year instead of the CB I sent you. I just know I want some babies from them either way.

Keith
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With more roads and more people after them than ever finding the record is likely in the past.That one Chuck had from the 70-80s is about 8(!)foot measured dead...I doubt anyone could have measured him that length alive.The kings are NOT population control for the rattlers either.I would LOVE to hear of FEMALE kings over 6'....in fact I would like some of their babies for outcrossing.Anyway,random thoughts,Jeff

is that they are supposed to be protected from collection.
Every year I read about someone's new breeding stock that they just happened to pick up while conveniently passing through Georgia.
I guess you could just pass my opinion off as sour grapes or jealousy, but these same people then complain that we can't find kings like we used to.
For reference, I am 5'10 and 1/2" from fingertip to fingertip.
This female was easily that length and a few more inches as she wrapped around my wrist.
The good news is, she is still out there as I don't illegally collect.
Enjoy,
Karl

Carl,

Can I use that pic on my site ?

Regards,

Keith
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Sure Keith, you can use it.
All I ask is that you spell my name correctly.
Karl H. Betz

That's a big one. More and more people are collecting them, that's for sure, and most people shouldn't collect them IMO. There are enough people/breeders of high quality that you can find one without much trouble.

I would only keep a really nice Eastern and then it would be based on where I found it. I've caught a 4.5' Eastern in St. Marks, south of Tallahassee but it was on the refuge and so I just put it back.

But let's not get carried away with GA snake laws; it sounds great on paper but enforcing it's something totally different. I grew up in N. Florida and Mobile and I'm more than familiar with SW Georgia and SE Georgia to some extent. There is a law on the books for example, that says you can't kill a non-venemous snake. Great...but how can someone prove you don't know it's venemous or not?! If you're not a herper no judge is going to convict you for killing a king, for example.

In Worth, Thomas, and Brooks Cos., GA for example, I've seen D'backs skinned and their bodies left on the road or the side of the road - you can tell when a skin is harvested. Let's say a cop shows up; is he going to ticket you? Yeah...right, I grew up in the deep South, good luck. Now let's suppose you are caught by someone who wants to enforce the law and it's a colorful corn snake skinned (which I've also seen) - that person could argue he thought it was a venemous snake and was protecting himself; sounds corny but it would fly most times, and I'd put a bet on it.

As far as kings being protected, I'm not sure of the law about collecting snakes, but my guess is that it's like other places - just some snake sp. are prohibited from keeping. Again, if you have one "illeagal" snake and a few "legal" takes, who can say you know the difference between spp., who can prove you do? If you keep a number of snakes/herps or are well known then you might get nailed...but if your kid had an Eastern and you claimed not to know the difference and aren't a herper or work in biology, how are they going to prove it?!

Having said that, at least GA has laws protecting snakes...that's a step in the right direction.

-John

and I was under the impression that you aren't allowed to keep native species of any kind. Naturally there are permits that you can get to over ride it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I worked at a wildlife rehab center and I just remember that being the case. That was the reason why we had to have special permission to keep an eastern hognose but not a western. Just curious, I was only 14 at the time so I could be getting facts mixed up.

Liz

Liz,

"and I was under the impression that you aren't allowed to keep native species of any kind."

This is actually incorrect. Georgia snake laws are as follows:

It is legal to keep nonindigenous, nonvenomous snakes (such as boas, pythons, western hognose snakes, etc.) without permit (state. county/city laws may differ).

It is legal to keep any indigenous venomous snakes (including Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnakes, Timber/Canebrake Rattlesnakes, Pigmy Rattlesnakes, Cottonmouths, Copperheads, and Eatsern Coral Snakes) without permit.

"Naturally there are permits that you can get to over ride it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I worked at a wildlife rehab center and I just remember that being the case. That was the reason why we had to have special permission to keep an eastern hognose but not a western. Just curious, I was only 14 at the time so I could be getting facts mixed up."

All indigenous nonvenomous snakes in Georgia are "protected" in that it is illegal to kill, collect or possess them without permit. A permit can easily be obtained for a fee, to exhibit indigenous nonvenomous snakes in Georgia for educational purposes, provided you can prove through documentation that you meet the minimum required hours involved in education.

Good to see a young lady involved in herps in Georgia.
Cheers,
Karl H. Betz

n/p

John,

"But let's not get carried away with GA snake laws; it sounds great on paper but enforcing it's something totally different."

I categorically disagree with rationalizing whether or not a law is good enough to obey.

"I grew up in N. Florida and Mobile and I'm more than familiar with SW Georgia and SE Georgia to some extent. There is a law on the books for example, that says you can't kill a non-venemous snake. Great...but how can someone prove you don't know it's venemous or not?! If you're not a herper no judge is going to convict you for killing a king, for example."

I was born in Key West, Florida and have spent most of my life in the Southeastern states. The law does exist that you may not kill a nonvenomous snake in Georgia. What judges do is up to judges. BUT: Ignorance of the law IS NO EXCUSE. Let's be realistic here. We are not talking about the homeowner who kills an unidentified snake on his porch. We are talking about people who specifically come to Georgia with intention of breaking the law and illegally removing snakes.

"In Worth, Thomas, and Brooks Cos., GA for example, I've seen D'backs skinned and their bodies left on the road or the side of the road - you can tell when a skin is harvested. Let's say a cop shows up; is he going to ticket you? Yeah...right, I grew up in the deep South, good luck. Now let's suppose you are caught by someone who wants to enforce the law and it's a colorful corn snake skinned (which I've also seen) - that person could argue he thought it was a venemous snake and was protecting himself; sounds corny but it would fly most times, and I'd put a bet on it."

I am sad to agree that no Georgia law enforcement officer (except those working at National Wildlife Refuges like the Okeefenokee) will ticket you for killing and skinning a rattlesnake. That may have something to with the fact that it is not illegal to capture, torture or kill any venomous snakes in Georgia. I would agree with your bet as far as LEO goes. BUT any F & G Officer is going to ticket you. It is illegal to kill or collect Corn Snakes in Georgia and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

"As far as kings being protected, I'm not sure of the law about collecting snakes, but my guess is that it's like other places - just some snake sp. are prohibited from keeping. Again, if you have one "illeagal" snake and a few "legal" takes, who can say you know the difference between spp., who can prove you do? If you keep a number of snakes/herps or are well known then you might get nailed...but if your kid had an Eastern and you claimed not to know the difference and aren't a herper or work in biology, how are they going to prove it?!"

All indigenous nonvenomous snakes in Georgia are "protected" in that it is illegal to kill, collect or possess them without permit. A permit can easily be obtained for a fee, to exhibit indigenous nonvenomous snakes in Georgia for educational purposes, provided you can prove through documentation that you meet the minimum required hours involved in education.

"Having said that, at least GA has laws protecting snakes...that's a step in the right direction."

On this, I agree, although I would rather see a possession limit rather than a total ban on keeping.

Cheers,
Karl H. Betz

...this guy found out and he said he was "really sure" because he was only able to get three and remembers talking with him, got them from him at the Tampa show, etc. It all adds up and this guy's been dealing herps in Florida for 20 years.

The GA boy and the Enge female will hopefully do some mating next year.

I agree that Easterns are huge everywhere - my guess is that the tendency for snakes in the Eastern US is to be larger in an area with the climate and habitat that N. Florida and S. Georgia provide - or what's left of it!

Like I say...keep your finger crossed for me so that I can land back in northern Florida doing what I like and being back in the land of the Beasts from the East as I like to call them!

-John

I've actually hunted this region with Mitch...(it was too cold though)

Anyway, there are no records of indigos from SW GA.
You are right, the habitat is perfect, and perfect for indigos. It's really a wonder there are none there...but...it seems they may NEVER have been there.

The indigos they are finding in GA are all from the SE part of the state, just west and south of Savannah.

MAYBE THIS IS WHY THERE ARE LOTS OF BIG KINGS in SW GA?
In the sandhill country what I like to call "tortoise town" of the SE, you rarley find any kingsnakes to speak of when there are healthy indigo populations. They fill the same nitch and the indigos are a larger snake that eats a lot more of the same kinds of prey.

Indigos will also eat the kings...and the kings seem smart enough to stay away. It's kind of like raptors messing around in T-rex habitat.

Depends on your definitions of "Southeast" and "Southwest".
I have personally documented Indigos in Camden (definitely Southeast) County and Echols (Southcentral???) County. Both of those sightings have been reported to GA DNR as have at least two other independant sightings in Echols County.
Cheers,
Karl H. Betz

Extreme SW Georgia ( Seminole, Miller, and Decatur Cos., etc) is not the same as eastern Thomas Co. (just north of Tallahassee) over to Statenville (Echols Co.) and Clinch Co., which is south central, and then SE Georiga which is much more of a wetland-type system with coastal influences. I've botanized this area quite a bit and my overall knowledge of the area is pretty sound. Dean those sandy hill areas are very unique and it's some of the most brutal habitat in Eastern NA during August!

There is a clear vegetation change and ecological difference in a short distance going both east to west and north to south when you're talking about northern Florida, southern Georgia, and extreme SE Alabama. I've worked with wetlands for years so ecological boundaries and ecotones are something I have to live with daily.

Not sure about the Dry, but there are some nasty big kings in that area!!

-John