Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I wanted to get some opinions and advice on the prescribed treatment by the vet for my two beardies, Gollum and Smeagol.

History - 3 weeks ago took both to the vet for a decrease in diet, but more so with Gollum. Fecal showed coccidia and hookworms. Vet treated with Panacur and Albon. Gollum weighed 208grams and Smeagol weighed 340g at time of treatment.

Each enclosure was cleaned, disinfected, and had shelf liner changed out for clean/disinfected one after every defacation. I have also administered AccidiPhliz since about two weeks ago.

Gollum has continued to eat next to nothing except for the occasional nibble of salad and maybe five crickets since the last visit. He has been on and off as far as activity with a couple of days of being active and then a couple of day of laying around and hiding (at least when i'm home from work).Smeagol has continued to eat 10-20 large crix a day and salad. Not as much as I would like to see, but still acts normal and is gaining weight.

Today we went to the vet and had follow up fecals done. Gollum's still showed some coccidia, but sounded like less than originally and weighed 210g before shatting and 206g after. Smeagol's weighed 379g and showed no coccidia but the vet saw a fluke egg. Gollum was given a 0.1ml injection of Droncit and will go on another round of Albon treatment. He also gave him 3cc's of A/D to try and get some food in him and will get this for the next five days to try and give him kick start. Smeagol was given an injection of Droncit and nothing else.

I am a little skeptical about some of the treatment prescribed, but i'm only familiar with the more common things like the Albon and Panacur for the coccidia and hookworms. I've never even heard of a fluke egg before so I don't know if Droncit is the right thing and I am really unsure about the force feeding of A/D. A/D is some sort of dog/cat diet and the vet acknowledges that this is not an ideal diet, but will at least get some food in him to jumpstart his eating.

I know that this vet is a "qualified" herp vet and in the past did his residency with the vet of a very well known reptile expert's iguana and other herps. I have noticed him refer to three or four different reptile medical and surgical books while figuring out doses to administer and he has mentioned having to leave early one saturday to go to some reptile seminar. I really need to know some of your expert thoughts, opinions, and experiences. Am I being too worried or should I be concerned. Since this vet is only two blocks from my house it has been nice to be able to bring them in daily to get their meds since I do not have a reliable person at my house to help force open their mouth to self medicate, but I will not hesitate to drive 20 minutes to the next available herp vet if this guy is not treating correctly. What do you think?

I personally recommend Critical Care by Oxbow Hay Company. It is a recovery diet created for critically ill rabbits, but has been used successfully in herbivorous reptiles. If your vet sees exotics he should probably carry it or you can order it online at oxbowhay.com. What dose of Albon is he using and what duration? Yes, Droncit is an appropriate drug for flukes, although I am not convinced that they are a problem for your dragon. I am confused are both dragons being treated for coccidia or only Gollum?
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Stacey

Totally understand the confusion. I've had to stop the vet a couple of times to make sure who we were talking about at any given time. On the original round they were both treated, but this time around Gollum is the only one being treated for coccidia.

I wanna say 3-4cc of Albon for 6 days but don't quote me on that. I will be able to confirm the dosage tommorrow when I go in.

We were talking about this earlier and CheriS recommends that Albon be given for a longer duration like 14 days. The original wisdom was 3-5 days, but Cheri pointed out that it was insufficient to clear the infection at that duration and that they run it longer. Good luck with your dragons. Keep us posted.
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Stacey

3-4 cc would be a mass overdose of this drug to a bearded dragon.

Gollom at 210g-206g grams will probably get about .20 cc and Smeagol's weighing 379 will get about .35 - .40 cc

a/d is not bad for a short period3, like under a week, it gets loads of protein and nutrients in them along with much needed trace mineral they can get depleted of fast and makes them feel out of "wack". But I also think that one of the critial care formula powders( kaytee or emeraid) should be used along with diluted pedialite or diluted gatoraid for any longer than that.

Tapeworms are not that common in beardies, but can happen andif that was what they were, the Drocit was a proper choice with little known side effects.

Good herp vets are not trained in school, then learn hands on and by reading or attenting the few workshops available, the fact yours checks references or even has the books there, I think is a good indicator they are learning and doing it right.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Stacey and Cheri, thanks for your inputs it was exactly what I needed to hear, and am feeling better about the situation already. Emotion was telling me to be cautious and get some opinions because of my lack of knowledge and experience with the situation. I just didn't want to blindly trust the vet because of some of the horror stories about ignorant ones i've heard about that deal with herps, especially when I feel Gollum's life is in jeopardy at the moment due to his lack of eating for so long.

I will also check the Albon dosage today when we go in to make sure it is close to what you listed. I'm pretty sure that the number I listed was to high since the 3cc's of A/D administered was in a larger diameter syringe than the skinny little syringe used for the Albon. All these unit of measures i've never dealt with can be confusing at times. I'll let you know this afternoon.

You know - there is one thing I absolutely love about these forums. The anomnimity. I mean really, here we have two people giving out dosages and medical advice with absolutely no reprocussions if they are wrong (which it turns out they just might be). Let me give some examples

Point one - RaderRVT (I am going to guess the RVT stands for registered vet tech which simply means you should know better) WAY overdid the dosage on the albon. CheriS may have got closer to the lattest published dosages I have seen but still is alittle off from those; it is really hard to tell untill you know what concentration the vetrinarian is using. Cheri, could I get your references for the dosage you gave? or do you not have one.

Point two - Flukes are NOT tapeworms - never have been, never will be. Complete different families. And depending on the fluke it CAN do some serious damage depending on which one it is. Unless, that is, you consider having a parasite burrowing through your lungs, liver, muscles, etc par for the course.

BigFil - I applaud your doing research to make sure your babies are getting the best treatment possible, keep it up, but maybe be alittle more picky what your sources are next time.
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Russ

Excuse me but I did not give a dose I said that the AMOUNT that Bigfil said of 3-4 cc was not what he probably meant. I said he probably meant 0.3-0.4 cc, which is exactly what CheriS said, but SOMEHOW her dose is "close" to published doses and my dose is "way overdosed"? What are you talking about? What are your references?

First of all the published dose for Albon in reptiles is 50 mg/kg (Carpenter, et al "Exotic Animal Formulary" ). Therefore a 300 gram dragon would receive 15 mg or 0.3 ml of the 50 mg/ml Albon solution which is the solution available to small animal vets. The other oral suspension formulation of sulfadimethoxine is 125 mg/ml and is NOT sold under the name of Albon it is sold as Bactrovet (ref. Plumb, et al "Veterinary Drug Handbook" ). So what other formulation or concentration are you talking about? I NEVER said flukes are tapeworms I said you would not treat flukes or tapeworms with Panacur, you would use a drug like Droncit (praziquantel) (ref.Plumb, et al "Veterinary Drug Handbook" ). This man has taken his reptile to the vet and asked use to use our experience to help with dosages and recommendations NOT diagnosing problems, which is well within the limits of my license. Before you come on here and attack people you do not know, make sure you know what you are talking about.
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Stacey

Albon only comes in one concentration from the producer but that does not prevent anyone from diluting it or combining it with another compound - Done all the time in the clinics I have worked in. (easier to give one bolus of meds than two)

As for overstepping your bounds. In almost every one of the 50 states RVTs are liscensed to act under the DIRECT SUPERVISION of a liscensed veterinarian. You may be knowledgable in how to read the formularies and plumb's, you may have been taught on how to compound medicines and dose animals but your legal right to do that stops when you clock out; that is the law. (also by law any actions you take while on the clock is the responsiblity of the veterinarian, not you.) If the vet you work with is knowingly giving you information to disseminate on the internet he/she is guilty of gross malpractice; where is the client patient relationship, where is the examination of the patient, heck can you prove the two have ever even been in the same state as each other. There are medical and legal reasons for requiring those things before medicine is given and doses are discussed.

If you disagree (which is your right and who knows perhaps I am wrong in your state; its not an unusual thing) show what you have been writing on here to your vet and ask it there are any problems with it. I think we both know what the answer would be (which is why I don't think you'll do it).

As for the flukes/tapeworms - that was cheri's comment not yours.

Oh - and I didn't give any references 'cuz I didn't give any numbers - even a second year vet student knows that a published case study is worlds apart from an aplication of that data in a live animal. As I read the situation you could even have given the case study information without causing any problems.
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Russ

In no way is agreeing with a dose prescribed by Big Fil's veterinarian overstepping my bounds as a registered veterinary technician. I still do not see what problem you have with ANYTHING I said. Where are my "massive mistakes"? Now if he asked me what dose of a drug to give without going to a vet and not having a dose from them, I would be making an improper statement (something, that if you have been here before today or on the herp health and breeding forum, you will see I have always refused to do). In offering my opinion on a dose given by his veterinarian I see no problem. Besides, on a hobbyist forum, I do not have a client/patient relationship with them, nor am I treating anyone's animal and am therefore not acting as their nurse. I am offering my opinion, which they are free to take or leave, as a fellow hobbyist.

Again, you have accused me of massive mistakes in dosing. Where are they? and what are your references?
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Stacey

Whoa! My vet prescribed 0.1 cc per 100 grams.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
www.beginnersbasics.com

Ok, just got back from the vet and the dosage being given is .20 cc for 206-210g Gollum. He was also given 3 cc of a/d again after the vet techs confirmed that he did not eat again today.

I posed this question to the forum to get everyone's thoughts and opinions to make sure that the dosage prescribed was within a certain tolerance which from this discussion appears to be within reason. I may have added to the confussion with my admitted layman's understanding of veterinary medical science when I said 3-4 cc of Albon. Ultimately my dragon goes in everyday to the vet to get medicated so my vet still has the last word unless I find through informative discussions like this that he is way off, which is not the case here. I always feel more comfortable hearing from multiple sources and digest what I learn so that I can make an informed decision. In this case if I found that the vet was way off I would discuss this with him and make the decision to continue to see him or up and go to another herp vet (luckily where I live this is an option).

I think that one thing that people reading this thread should take away is that medical advice on an internet should be used for reference only and not in place of a vet visit.

OK do the panelist have anything to add.....LOL. I love heated debates.

I had an ex like you one time........ HAD

He dropped dead with fluid on the brain, a shame, he thought it was more brain power
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www.reptilerooms.com