Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just being a curious cat as to how everyone here heats their cage. Currently I have an overhead light source and a heat mat. But I am currently debating about removing the underpad heat source.

Would an over head light produce enough ambient temps? Should I worry about my humidity box getting to cold?

My BP lives in a 40 breeder with a screened top. Three hide boxes, humidity box and water bowl.

Opinions and how you have yours set up would be great.

Thanks in advance.
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2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.1 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

I say underheat (flexwatt or heat pad on rheostat or proportional thermostat) over a bulb any day.

I say you need to keep the heat pad for belly heat(for digestion).The way I have my 55 gallon is with one large heat pad on hot side, a smaller one on cool side, and a ceramic heat emmitter ove this basking spot on hot side. I keep hot side at 92 day and 87 night time, cool side is 88 day and 82 night.this seems to be working really well for him.

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I am a true herper at heart
1.0 ball python(normal)Maximus
0.1 golden retriever Amber
0.1 dalmation/lab mix nikita
0.2 bettas

I think they're both important. Most strongly disagree with me, but most of those people have large breeding populations and as such have different requirements than a pet owner. Belly heat is what they need to properly digest food, but I've used lights almost exclusively for the eight years I've had my Ball and have never had any problems from them. Substrate temps are always in high 80's to low 90's on the hot side and about 10 degrees cooler on the cool side. Undertank pads are great, but don't produce enough ambient temperature in a room that isn't dedicated to reptiles. If you're comfortable at 85f in your house, that's all good, but I'm not. I prefer my air temps to be in the mid-low 70's, my Ball disagree's with that. I've use an UTH (under tank heating pad) for about a year but I didn't notice any significant difference with or without it. Currently I'm using two "moon light" bulbs from Fluker, a 75w for the hot side and a 50w for the cool side. As I said, all of my temps are fine and always have been...for keeping one or two snakes. If you're looking at a breeding population, lights just won't work for you. The sun seems to provide enough radiant heat for belly heat but, so do my "artificial suns". I think it really comes down to personal preference and what your particular needs are. Just make sure your temps are always where they need to be and you'll be fine. As for the drying of the air, a simple misting or large bowl on the hot side is fine...and your humid is even better, if your snake uses it.

Is that there are not UTH's in real life. *laughs*

And I was always under the impression that snakes do NOT need heat to digest food. Hence they are nocturnal creatures?! How does a nocturnal creature use heat to digest food when it eats at night then hides in shade durning the day? *lol*

Granted I understand that they need an ambient temp or their system will shut down, but that temp is not up to 100* like a bearded dragon (95-115). My floor temps without the UTH reach low 80's on the cool side and 90's on the hot side. This might be due to the fact that I have my cage on top of my Bearded Dragon cage which heats the bottom of the cage fairly well. So I can get away with one heat lamp.

Like I said, in the wild they only have the sun to heat them. Not in anyway saying anyone is wrong, just trying to offer another way and see if anyone can offer some insight on what i said.
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

There aren't any UTH in real life, but the sun does heat the ground up enough to provide the temps at night. They do need heat to digest their food, just like an Iggy need UV to digest its food. I don't know the exact biology of it, but I believe it has something to do with the enzymes working at optimal temperature. Your Beardie cage could be the reason for the ground heat, but I don't have anything other than a wooden stand under my tank and my temps are great. And my room temperature is in the low 70's. Just personal preference.

I think they're both important. Most strongly disagree with me, but most of those people have large breeding populations and as such have different requirements than a pet owner.

No. Ball Pythons have the same husbandry requirements whether they are the sole animal in a collection, or #1234 in a collection. I would think that with the money involved in hatching just one clutch of eggs, the breeders would not risk doing anything "less than the ideal" for their snakes. If they needed basking lights, and it resulted in bigger females, bigger clutches, healthier animals, then we would do it. The money involved with just ONE egg is thousands of dollars, so I don't think anyone is skimping on anything.

Not to mention, a fossorial/burrowing animal from equatorial Africa that doesn't really bask in radient heat would not have much use for basking lights. Watch your snake(s). They teach you everything. All husbandry being proper, how many times do you see a Ball out basking in the light? LOL! Before I had my first clutch (1993), I used lights. I can't believe I ever kept the damn things healthy back then.
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Actually, I've watched my snake for about eight years. He didn't do anything differently with the UTH than now with just lights. I don't use white lights and his substrate is always in the perfect temperature range, I use CareFresh. What I meant by it not being practical, is that it's just not practicle to have 2,468 lights for 1,234 enclousures. It would cost too much in replacement and would require too much space for the all of the domes and proper spacing. Compared to shoving a little box onto a shelf with a heat strip on one side. Again, I've always had success with my use of bulbs. If my substrate and ambient temperatures are "perfect" and I'm not messing up his photocycle, what am I doing incorrectly? I realise Balls are terestrial and don't get the heat they need from the air, but breathing cold air isn't exactly good for them either. Like I said, I'm not comfortable with my house being 85 just so my snake can be comfortable. I'd rather do that through husbandry.

I'm not saying I know everything about Balls. But if it ain't broke...

I don't use white lights and his substrate is always in the perfect temperature range,

Interesting. We now have a "perfect" temperature range? What pray tell is this? Keep in mind that being ectothermic animals and requiring an infinite variability in conditions, there is no "perfect" range. At least not one that we can provide in out "tiny little setups". There are however, SUITABLE ranges that will work.

But I am interested to know you're "perfect" set up.
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>>>Interesting. We now have a "perfect" temperature range? What pray tell is this? Keep in mind that being ectothermic animals and requiring an infinite variability in conditions, there is no "perfect" range. At least not one that we can provide in out "tiny little setups". There are however, SUITABLE ranges that will work.

But I am interested to know you're "perfect" set up.

Seems to me your trying to pic a fight because someoen doesnt agree with you. Kinda childish if you ask me.
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

I realise Balls are terestrial and don't get the heat they need from the air, but breathing cold air isn't exactly good for them either.

It has nothing to do with them being "terrestrial". LOL! Not at all. There's a TON of "terrestrial" snakes that come out and bask. Garters. Waters. Some elapids. Tons of other colubrids. etc etc etc

Not sure why you think being terrestrial equates to not basking, or assumed that I thought so. Far from it. I said FOSSORIAL (for lack of a better term right now). BIG difference. Terrestrial basically means "NOT aquatic and NOT arboreal". You can be terrestrial WITHOUT being fossorial or subterranean. Most are in fact. But not Balls.

Again, if you knew the natural history, this would indeed be moot.

I'm not saying I know everything about Balls. But if it ain't broke...

Keeping a relatively long-lived snake alive for 8 years is not exactly a glowing recommendation for "if it ain't broke.....". Not at all. These things are next to impossible to kill. I could stay alive on lettuce and grapefruit juice (ewww) and live i jail for like 60 years, but that does not make the conditions ideal. And that's where a knowledge of natural history comes in.
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Actually my BP come out every night and sit under my basking light *lol*

Not sure if he is basking or not, but he comes out and chills underneath it every night.
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

It all depends on the setup. I use a light and an UTH in my cages, but, a light in yours may turn the cage into a jerky machine. Screen tops allow it to dry out and a light may accelerate that. You can go with either or both, but you do need to take the humidity into consideration,
Justin J

Thanks jgjulander

I keep a towel on the other side of the screen so humidity doesnt escape as much and there is also a large humidity box in the cage that they can always go to.
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

I have also had my balls set up with just heat lamps for a while, again my temps are in the mid 90s at the level of the newspaper and about 75-80 on the other side (I have a 65 gallon tank). We also have had a rosy boa for about 9-10 years who has been kept with only basking lights (with a proper temp gradient of course).

Now reading your threads I am confused. I understand why many people prefer heating pads to a spot light. However, I have never heard that if a snake is not kept on a heating pad it will not digest it's food, or be as healthy as an animal with a heating pad.

I have a 4 foot 12 pound 8 year old female iguana who also has never used a heating pad (she has a basking light and a uv light). I don't know bout you guys but I think she is digesting her food pretty well(her calcium levels are perfect too)! Why is it so much better to use a heating pad? Health wise I am confused...and honestly as the frog people always say don't put a heating pad on the bottom because animals dig to cool off by nature! I would say either way as long as the temps are ideal both a heating pad and spot light (whether by themselves or used together) would work fine!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...
1.1 Feeder mice- gremlin, chow (and future pups)

I have a 4 foot 12 pound 8 year old female iguana who also has never used a heating pad (she has a basking light and a uv light).

Don't compare a DIURNAL, arboreal, sun-loving lizard with a subterranean, NOCTURNAL snake. It doesn't make sense. At least not to me.

Seems to me those are pretty close.

The point she was making is that they go under to get *away* from the heat. And when using a UTH they dig getting closer to the heat.

Seems to me a valid point.

Asside from RH issues, I dont really see that much difference.

Needless to say im using a UTH rightnow with hot side temps of 100 ... o( Cant get it lower, i keep having to add substrate on top of the heat pad.

I should prolly just buy a thermo to regulate
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

Shove a few layers of newspaper between the heat pad and the cage or use a thin towel. Works like a charm everytime.

And remember, the heat pad should be OUTSIDE of the cage.
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Yup the heat pad is attatched to the bottom of the cage. And I also have the cage raised off the ground about an inch.

Should I put the towl/nespaper inside the cage? or underneath between the heat pad and glass?

dunno if the deleted it but i should be shooting for 92-95?
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

Between the heat pad and the cage. Inside the cage does nothing, as the animal can simply crawl underneath it.

True an iguana is not the same as a ball python, nor does it respond the same to environmental stimulants. However, if we are talking about reptile health, I believe we can make several comparisons. The main comparison is regarding the digestive mechinism of ectotherms. In an ectothermic system, organisms are unable to produce their own heat, and thus they must seek out heat from their environments (the sun). If sufficient heat is not generated, the organ systems slow down, and processes such as respiration, excretement, and digestion, are also minimalized until a general source of energy influxes.

Now most reptiles bask, or partake in specific behavioral adaptations to generate heat. Archosaurs (the main line of reptiles whose decendents include: crocs, aligators, dinosaurs, and birds) have a higher activity level, body temperature and faster metabolism than other reptiles. Crocs and birds(subclass avies) have a 4 chambered heart, and Avies also have an endothermic homeostatic system! Hence the reason my baby Opie (cockatiel) doesn't need to bask.

Now that I've spewed out a reptiles overall natural history, lets talk about the ball/royal python's!

During daylight hours wild ball pythons are most often found in abandoned termite mounds and rodent burrows. Termites are extremely sensitive to areas of high heat and low humidity, so they set up their mounds to have high humidity and low temps. At night the snakes tend to become more active, and are often times found wandering through forest/savanah transitional zones (in search of rodents). Ball pythons like many snakes, are almost never collected in areas of constantly high humidity (they chose to stay with in transitional zones which allow the snakes to frequent any particular zone depending on their physical and social needs).

So, yes a ball python, sand boa, leopard gecko, argentine horned frog...whatever you wish, are all different, and require different set-ups. However, in general these animals all want the same thing...the ability to control their internal environment! Now in my opinion heat pads should be used in conjunction with an overhead light..thus allowing the snake to have both ground and "atmospheric" heat (that way a warm snake isn't forced to breathe in cool air....something that would almost never happen in the wild).

Breeders who use a rack system are perfectly correct in saying that a heat pad is the best bet for their snakes (in general individual containers in a a rack are not as large as some pet aquariums..for example I have a 65 gallon aquarium with a screen top..I need to set up my tank in response to low humidity...and make sure my heating is sufficent...this is very different than a 30 gallon fully enclosed rubbermaid..typically found in a rack system...I have another ball set up in one of these that uses only a heat pad, and it works great becuase the cage is less ventilated and allows less heat to escape.

Now for the arguement that snakes do not bask...I beg to differ. I've witnessed snakes basking during the daylight hours and not only through my fun filled viewing of nature shows such as the slightly set up croc hunter and corwin! LOL! Hmmm look at this rare endangered venemous snake just sitting on a rock hahaha! But in reality, I've spent the last 4 and a half years of my life studying biology in college, and I spent a semester studying reptiles. We've seen racers, brown snakes, garters, and even corns and black rats out basking on rocks....granted once they caught us spying on them they were off! It is wrong to say that a terrestrial snake will never bask...granted it is not likely to see a ball out in the open in the wild!

Fossorial and subterrian in essence are the same term. Ball pythons are mainly terrestrial snakes with fossorial habits.

So, what's better heat pad, or spot light....I say if you have an aquarium use 'em both with a handy dandy digital heating device letting you know how hot it is! But if you just use a spotlight...you should be perfectly fine if your temps are suitable! Believe it or not..when my snakes are under a rock and there is a spotlight above it...the rocks do warm up!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...
1.1 Feeder mice- gremlin, chow (and future pups)

Now for the arguement that snakes do not bask...I beg to differ

Not sure who said that snakes don't bask. I hope you're not implying that I said that, because I didn't. Of course snakes bask. I have pictures of tons of them. I've temp-gunned even MORE of them doing it.

Ball Pythons is what we're talking about however....
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You did say BP's dont bask, but you also said that other snakes definetly bask.

I dunno if my BP is wierd, but it basks all the time.... Maybe its doing something other then basking, but it sits out under the night light at night.... Maybe i got a goofy snake. o)
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0.0.1 Aru GTP (Still in Debate)
2.0 Ball Pythons (Kurt the Snake ~ Frosty McFry)
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat (OogieBoogie)
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa (NoFingers McGee)
1.1 Bearded Dragons (Saku ~ GracieJ)
0.0.1 Albino Ornate Pacman Frog (Jabba the Frog)
0.0.1 Ornate Pacman Frog (Hooter)
0.0.2 Emperor Scorpion (Cecil ~ Peoples)
0.0.1 Usambara Tarantula - (FBD - Fire Ball of Death)
2.0 House Cats (Bill ~ Ted)

And a partrige in a pear tree...

~!Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design!~

Great post.

Well I was hoping to put some of my tuition money to the test!

My herp teacher would be so proud hearing me talk about why birds really are considered reptiles lol!

Now if only I could get my mice to breed!

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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...
2.3 Feeder mice

Crocs and birds(subclass avies) have a 4 chambered heart, and Avies also have an endothermic homeostatic system!

There is no "sub-class" called Avies. Birds are in the CLASS AVES and the only sub classes within Aves are Archaeornithes and Neornithes. The former subclass is extinct, consisting of the Archaeopteryx, being the famous "dinosaur bird".

I'm suprised you didn't call me out on that earlier!

Avies is considered a subclass of reptilia by most herpetoligists. In school most of my zoo professors would fail you if you wrote class avies!

It is kind of a new generation herper thing but birds by most scientists are considered reptiles.

Also, being a biology teacher we are taught in the newer texts to teach the kids that birds are reptiles.

Most old style herpers disagree with the above statement, but it is common knowledge birds are more closely related to dinosaurs than a so called classic reptile. They share several similarities with other reptiles...they have a beak like a turtle, they lay eggs, they have nesting behavior like a croc., crocs and birds both have four chambered hearts and a higher metabolism, and they have scales....I'm sure there are things I am leaving out!

Anyways there has even been data presented that shows mammals may be reptiles too! Most professors haven't even begun to discuss that topic in class yet lol!

So if someone tells you birds are reptiles...don't tell them they are wrong! You are welcome to disagree...but look at both sides!
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*Amy*
0.1 Green Iguana (yes, I have a lizard in my bathroom)-iggy
2.1 Ball Pythons (normal)-cosi, jake, and frosty mcfry
0.1 B.smithi (mexican redknee tarantula)-athena
0.0.1 midland painted turtle-nemo
1.1 dogs-rocky and skippy
1.0 normal grey cockatiel-opie
0.0.30 betta, guppies, rosy reds, fantail goldfish, clown pleco,...
2.3 Feeder mice

Heat pad.
No.
Yes.