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Another Question

BenSambrook Feb 10, 2004 02:56 PM

Thanks for the responses on AV. Another question you may be able to answer. Once again I am just curious and am not asking as someone considering buying a hot snake but.....

After looking at the venomous forums I notice there is never anything written about Russells Vipers (also Saw Scales). From what I have seen on the species the species is not in any kind of trouble (e.g. endangered. It looks more like the people of India are more endangered than the snake when they come into proximity with the species LOL). As you guys keep Monacles / Kraits which I believe are from the same locales and have a bite that it is just as fatal (I have been led to believe) I just wondered if there was any reasons why they are not commonly kept e.g. temperemant, cost etc.

Many thanks again for any responses.
Ben

Replies (31)

rearfang Feb 10, 2004 03:22 PM

Actually, I have a (03) saw scale. It can be a little tricky geting them started. Mine can't make up it's mind whether to eat crickets or baby geckos (takes either depending on mood). Some start on n/b pinks. Gets interesting....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Nightflight99 Feb 10, 2004 03:27 PM

Hi again, Ben.

Both Daboia russelli and Echis sps are kept in private collections. However, these species are not generally considered to be very "popular" among keepers, in part due to their high toxicity and lack of antivenin availability. In addition, their demeanor can make them rather challenging to deal with, especially in the case of D.russelli, which can be entirely unpredictable.

True vipers, especially the terrestrial species, are generally less popular among US keepers, whereas they are very popular in European collections.

Regards,

~TE
Image

BenSambrook Feb 10, 2004 04:07 PM

Wonderful pic! I am in Europe myself so maybe one day I will see one of these snakes in captivity. Sorry to ask another but have you any pics or links for pics of Naja Nivea? There is not a lot on them on the Elapid forum or this one and I absolutely love these snake to bits.

Regards
Ben

Nightflight99 Feb 11, 2004 12:14 AM

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the pic. Below is a pic of a young male Naja nivea. This particular specimen still had much of its juvenile coloration at the time, but you can already see the gun-metal blue dorsal adult coloration beginning to appear. The great amount of variation in this species makes them all the more rewarding to work with.

~TE
Image

BenSambrook Feb 11, 2004 08:05 AM

Many thanks again - another great picture. Was the Daboia russelli pictured one of your own specimens?

Regards
Ben

Nightflight99 Feb 11, 2004 10:39 AM

Glad you enjoy the pictures.

Yes - both pictured animals stem from my collection.

~TE

psilocybe Feb 11, 2004 10:45 AM

Thomas,

Wow, I don't know of many people who keep D. russelli, awesome animal! Your N. nivea is pretty awesome too, though i'm partial to the gold phase. Tell me about your russells though, is it very hard to maintain (in comparison to other terrestrial true vipers, ie. gaboons, puffs, etc.)? I have not come across any captive notes for this species...you would do the hot community a great favor by posting some of your observations of it's captive care. Is yours captive born or an import? Let us know! I have no plans on keeping this species anytime soon (relatively new to hots, been working with crotalids and gabs for about a year), but D. russelli would definatley be on my want list in a while, .

Nightflight99 Feb 11, 2004 12:24 PM

Daboia russelli are indeed fascinating animals, whose magnificence is often underappreciated. They are not generally difficult to maintain, as long as the appropriate conditions are provided. Daboia r. siamensis requires moderate to elevated levels of humidity, with a temperature gradient of approximately 78-86 degrees Fahrenheit.

Their temperament is highly unpredictable, which is the primary factor that makes this species challenging to work with. At times, they can explode in a sudden burst of energy, at which point they can be very dangerous and difficult to control. I have seen specimens perform some rather amazing stunts, not unlike those seen in Bothrops asper. Interestingly, the nominate form seems to be more placid and less likely to display that type of behavior.

The specimens that I have worked with have mostly been captive-bred animals, although wild-caught specimens of D.r.siamensis are occasionally imported and available on the market. The nominate form is rarely available, and generally significantly more expensive.

~TE

BenSambrook Feb 11, 2004 12:41 PM

What is meant by the term 'nominate form'. Please excuse my ignorance.

Regards
Ben

psilocybe Feb 11, 2004 02:14 PM

If i'm correct, nominate form refers to the main form of the species, ie. Daboia russelli russelli vs. Daboia russelli siamensis, D. russelli russelli being the nominate form...

Nightflight99 Feb 11, 2004 09:45 PM

n/p

BenSambrook Feb 12, 2004 11:47 AM

n/p

psilocybe Feb 11, 2004 02:18 PM

Thanks for the info Thomas, very interesting indeed. What is your preferred method of handling them, hook and tail (or are they unsafe like gaboons to handle like this?), trapbox, or two hooks/and or tongs? I would imagine that tailing them, even with a hook, is not the wisest thing one could do, but like i said, i have no first hand experience with this species. Out of curiosity, what does your personal collection consist of right now Thomas?

Abhishek

psilocybe Feb 11, 2004 02:54 PM

Speaking of Russells, ran into this today:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=186888

The last item listed is a pair of Russell's Vipers. Unknown locality (that can be dangerous because of the local specificity of the antivenin needed for their bites), so taking a hit from one of these would majorly ruin your day (or life), and the price tag is pretty hefty, but this is the first time i've seen them on the classifieds...just thought i'd let you guys know in case you hadn't seen, since we were on the subject and all.

DanW Feb 11, 2004 05:29 PM

I saw that ad as well. Interestingly at the bottom it said that they were sold. I have a gorgeous male russelli russelli that is an absolute joy to work with. I have had no problems with him. He eats well, rides a hook well, is'nt overly aggressive, and looks awesome in his cage. I have been unable to find a female but I know they are out there. They are my favorite of the hots and everyone should have the joy of having one....well, maybe not everyone

Greg Longhurst Feb 11, 2004 05:29 PM

It's been a while, but I believe the best method is to use one or two hooks. Tailing can get exciting.

~~Greg~~

lanceheads Feb 11, 2004 07:43 PM

Greg,
Tailing ANY Daboia can get real exciting! hahahahahahahaha!
I have kept many russelli and they are VERY quick to anger.
I reccomend 2 hooks,period.

creep77 Feb 11, 2004 08:27 PM

Isn't their venom insultingly toxic? Potentially capable of rendering a man impotent? Thought I read that online somewhere.

creep

Larry D. Fishel Feb 11, 2004 10:39 PM

Yeah, but things turn around once the rigor sets in...

>>Isn't their venom insultingly toxic? Potentially capable of rendering a man impotent? Thought I read that online somewhere.
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Larry D. Fishel
Side effects may include paralysis
and death but are generally mild.

psilocybe Feb 12, 2004 10:04 AM

>>>>Isn't their venom insultingly toxic? Potentially capable of rendering a man impotent? Thought I read that online somewhere.>>>>

I believe BGF said that his wife won't let him handle D.r.siamensis, i believe that was the one, because of the risk of impotency! Don't know if he was joking or not (best to ask him), but that might be where you heard it. Either way, it's best not to get bitten, blood flowing like water from every orifice can really dull your mood

Thomas, thanks for the tips, though I doubt I'll have the chance anytime to put them to practice. I was under the impression that very few people kept D. russelli, but obviously from the response to this topic, there are a number of them. Anybody in New Mexico keep them? I'd love to get some first hand experience. Also, out of curiosity, do you stock the antivenin for this species (or does Miami-dade)? And is it local specific for your D.r.siamensis? This is a great topic guys, let's keep it going,

WW Feb 12, 2004 01:31 PM

>>Isn't their venom insultingly toxic? Potentially capable of rendering a man impotent? Thought I read that online somewhere.

The impotence comes from the possibility of anterior pituitary hemorrhage. The pituitary (a hormone gland situated under the brain) produces hormones which maintain various markers of adulthood, such as facial and body hair in men, as well as sexual function. If it takes a major hit, then you get a kind of regression, including loss of facial and body hair, testicular shrinkage and impotence (and you stop caring about the latter... ). This syndrome (Sheehan's syndrome) is a reasonably rare but nevertheless well-documented manifestation in Burma (D.r. siamensis) and southern India (D.r. russelii), but not elsewhere.

Want to look young again? This is not the best way of doing it...

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

evil-elvis Feb 12, 2004 11:32 PM

That must really suck to be that Sheehan guy,of all the things to have named for you, that must be the worst!
Ryan

Nightflight99 Feb 11, 2004 10:18 PM

Hi Abhishek,

single or double-hook (for large specimens) works best for handling Daboia russelli. Tailing can be done, but entails the same sense of adventure and potential sudden release of adrenaline that marks tailing large Bothrops asper.

~TE

BenSambrook Feb 12, 2004 11:56 AM

How big do these guys get (Daboia russelli). They always look pretty bulky as with most true vipers but I was wondering about length?

Also I just saw a program on N.Geographic last night and there was a guy that said Echis were attributed with more bites than any other species. I have seen on other programs / literature that this particular 'honour'? goes equally to Daboia russelli and Naja naja. Any ideas which is correct?

Regards
Ben

Curious Feb 12, 2004 12:37 PM

On an average to 1m. Max is 1.5m

And I have not seen any specific record about the comparison between Echis Vs Russells Vs Naja naja bite rates (since it is hard to track bites since most of these cases happen in rural India, where these 3 critters are present in abundance).

But I believe Echis will take the honor because of the wide distribution (India/Middle East/East/South/Central Africa) over Russells (South East Asia/India) and Naja naja (South East Asia/India).

Also, from my experience with Naja and Echis in the outdoors, Naja naja are more flighty compared to Echis (was inches from stepping on one inadvertently with just sandals, a friend pulled me away just in time), so the chances of someone nailed by Echis is more than Naja naja - once again, just from my experience in the outdoors. (Never seen Russels or the common Krait in the outdoors yet.)

BenSambrook Feb 12, 2004 12:55 PM

The program which said about Daboia russelli / Naja Naja was 'Snake Wranglers' (the one with Gerry Martin) but thinking about it I cannot remember whether they said these two species have the most bites attributable to them or the most fatalities. I have seen the same thing on the web but do not know whether they are just guessing or not.

WW Feb 12, 2004 01:41 PM

There really are no very reliable statistics on the relative importance of the major venomous snakes worldwide. We only have a few glimpses from regional clinical studies. In different parts of India, different snakes are important. I remember dicussing it with Rom Whitaker, who reckoned that cobras were the most important source of mortality across India, by virtue of being common throughout (D. russelii is generally patchily distributed), but Russell's viper, Echis and kraits all claim a lot of lives in many areas.

In Sri Lanka, Russell's viper, followed by Bungarus caeruleus are themain culprits, cobras seem less important.

In Thailand, the chief killers were Naja kaouthia, Calloselasma rhodostoma, Bungarus candidus, and D. russelii was of somewhat lesser importance due to its restricted distribution (but was the most important species within that distribution).

In Burma, D. russelii lets everything else pale into insignificance (but there are no Echis there).

For Asia, I would guess that D. russelii may be ahead of Echis, but globally, Echis is likely to beat anything, particularly due to the havoc wreaked by E. ocellatus in W. Africa.

I'd agree with you that you are a lot less likely to be bitten by a cobra than a Russell's viper or Echis, as cobras tend to shift out of the way, and also do a lot of bluffing instead of nailing everything that moves. In Sri Lanka, there are even various folk legends about nasty Russell's vipers killing people and nice cuddly cobras coming in to avenge or protect them by eating the Russell's viper... not an altogether erroneous comparison of the relative personalities of these snakes.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

BenSambrook Feb 12, 2004 05:28 PM

Dear Wolfgang

Could I ask if your University in Bangor does any Herpetological courses or a Herpetological module in any of the Zoology or Biology degree courses? I am 21yrs old and until now have had limited time on my hands through work but am now in a position where I am considering going back into full time education.

Regards
Ben Sambrook

WW Feb 13, 2004 06:06 AM

>>Dear Wolfgang
>>
>>Could I ask if your University in Bangor does any Herpetological courses or a Herpetological module in any of the Zoology or Biology degree courses? I am 21yrs old and until now have had limited time on my hands through work but am now in a position where I am considering going back into full time education.

Hi Ben,

We have an optional 1 semester Herpetology module in the 3rd year, we have a vertebrate biology course that also includes herps int he second year, and we offer the opporunity to do herpetological honours projects between the 2nd and 3rd (final) years. And, since we have three herpers on the staff, a lot of other courses (ecology, evo. biol. etc. also tend to have a lot of herpy examples )

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

BenSambrook Feb 13, 2004 03:12 PM

Dear Wolfgang

Many thanks for the info.

Would you mind if I e-mailed you at your University e-mail address as I have a few questions as to how different degrees may effect different career paths, as I would be looking at Herpetology as a career should I pursue one of these courses.

If not would you be able to give me a contact at the University that I could write to regarding this issue.

Many thanks again.

Kind regards
Ben Sambrook

WW Feb 14, 2004 10:10 AM

Sure you can e-mail me. As to how your choice of course will affect your career path... there is no clear cut career path to be a herpetologist. Getting a good degree in a relevant biological science (Zoology, Ecology, Molecular Biology, depending on what you are interested in) will be a start, but after that, you need to carve out your own path. The basic message is, get involved, make contacts, get good grades, and, most importantly, don't give up!

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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