Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was discussing this with some friends on another board and it was mentioned how rarely anyone talks about getting bitten by their burms, especially large burms. In turn, that made me think that it's a subject that does need to be discussed. While we as keepers can limit the possibility of a bite from our pets, no one can say with any certainty that they absolutely will never be bitten by their snakes. Part of owning any snakes is the potential for bites. Sometimes those bites are our own fault - feeding errors (I'd be willing to bet the vast majority fall in this catagory) or sometimes simple carelessness, but also it can happen from no fault of our own but the snake simply acting by its own reasoning.

The discussion started two weeks ago with a bite from one of my 7' male boas...strictly my own fault because I put the snake into a cleaned feeding tub (no prey scent) while I cleaned his cage instead of the usual pillow case I use on cleaning days. As soon as I touched the snake, he bit my hand and wrapped my arm. In his reptilian mind, the tub equaled feeding day and he nailed the first warm thing he sensed...unfortunately for me, it was my hand as I'd had no intention of feeding him when I placed him in the tub. It showed me that he had learned the association with the tub as I'd intended all along, and that I need to continue my practices once I've taught a specific behavioural response. I didn't take into consideration that he would expect food, since there was no prey to scent, simply because he was in a tub. For the record, this was the first time I'd ever been really nailed by one of my large boas, though I'd gotten a warning nip years ago from a rather testy and occassionally unpredicatable adult female boa I own. I've managed to remain generally bite-free from any but newly hatched/born animals or wild caught animals.

Then this past Sunday, my 13' female burmese landed a good bite on the same hand (only my 3rd bite from an adult animal in 13 years of keeping snakes). In her case, there was no discernable reason for the bite. I've assisted in her care for the past two years when my best friend owned her...every feeding, every cleaning, every 'play' time. We handled her while she was in complete blue when the cage needed cleaning, removed retained sheds, bathed her, moved her and handled her in every situation possible save just before or after a meal and the snake never acted aggressive in any way...not even so much as a hiss. I've had her for three to four months now, maybe a bit longer. While she has had to adjust to different living conditions (a new house, new cage, and cats in the new home - obviously they're shut out of the room when she's out), she fed regularly and has adjusted just fine with no acts of aggression. I use the same routine every time, the same one used for two years now and indeed her entire life - one set of doors is used for only feeding and the other for visits, I always wash up before opening the cage (no residual scents on me), and touch her to let her know I'm about to take her out - I've never used a hook with her (though I'm going to now). As I went to move her out of the cage, the next thing I know she is attached to my hand...my whole hand in her mouth with a single coil partially around my forearm. She seemed to immediately know I was not prey as she didn't constrict but neither did she let go (rubbing alcohol really does work). I've run through every scenario I could possibly think of, and there's really no explaining it. I can't find a single reason for her to change her usual behaviour.

It sums up as this: basically she's a snake and is acting like a snake. These beautiful animals are predators (which many people forget) and no amount of reasoning on our part is going to explain every behaviour. As keepers, we often become complacent in handling our animals...they're typically gentle with an even disposition and are rarely known to bite (but is that really the fact or is it that no one discusses it?). Even when we are careful, we have no way of knowing when the unexpected will happen. I bring this up because I see more and more people getting into burms or other giant constrictors, and I don't always think everyone thinks of all the repercusions of owning a giant. That $30 normal or $100 albino baby burm at the reptile show looks cute and appealing, but doesn't stay that way. I'm the third owner of my girl. Luckily for me, the incident looked much worse than it actually was - though I bled a fair amount, none of the cuts were very deep from her teeth, and none were over any major arteries or veins near the skin's surface. I had another adult in attendance and immediately able to assist when an unexpected situation arose. How different could it have turned out had I not been prepared? How many of us take risks with our 'tame' pets that could one day put us in harm's way?

I just wanted to share this experience to make others think. I'm not putting anyone down for their practices nor do I expect to be lambasted for getting bitten. As long as any of us keep these animals in captivity, it's a real possibility that it could happen to any one of us. Does this mean I'm getting rid of my girl? Heck no! She's still a good snake and deserves a good home. Does it mean my practices are going to change and evolve after this? You betcha! I just though we might be long overdue to discuss what can and does happen when keeping these beautiful giants.

I'll check in tomorrow to see what's posted. I'm homeward bound for the day.

Raven

This is indeed an important consideration when keeping large snakes. It is my opinion that a bite from a snake is NEVER the snake's fault and entirely the keeper's fault (even if it makes absolutely no sense at all)...something made the snake want to strike.

You also indirectly validified why you should never feed large constrictors outside of their cage; you astronomically increase your chances of something bad happening when feeding the snake outside of its cage. My snakes are always fed in their cage and know that when they are out of their cage, that they are not going to be fed; very simple and effective reasoning with an animal that is fairly hard wired. I have never been bitten by a large constrictor in 30 years following this simple advice....but I have been bitten by large constrictors that I had to rescue or take in; in time, though, even these snakes (who I would never label as "aggressive" calm down and learn to trust me. But they sure do command my respect.

I will generally agree that it is best to feed large constrictors in their cages. For myself, I use both methods. I prefer to use feeding tubs for the boas, mostly because I have a few cages with pairs of snakes, while the majority of my other snakes are fed in their enclosures. I think both methods can be used safely if the keeper is consistent and uses the proper tools (i.e. hooks, gloves, etc.). Obviously I don't condone feeding giant constrictors out of their cages, even at a young age...no sense switching their training midstream. Another important factor is actually handling the snakes other than at feeding times. Consistent handling is necessary so that they don't associate every interaction with food...something that unfortunately often happens once the snakes get larger and less managable.

Raven

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I think snake keepers can be divided into two groups: those who brag about their bites from snakes in general and close calls with giant snakes in particular; and those who consider each bite a little failure on their part and who probably have few if any close calls of the life threatening variety. You seem to fall in the latter group. I’ve always used exactly the words that Rob does, that it is never the snake’s fault.

I have seen some incredibly stupid posts regarding snake keeping and being bitten (not ignorant, stupid!). Most of them seem to be written by adolescent males (sorry guys, but it’s true). You know, along the lines of “I get bitten all the time” or “I have been bitten thousands of times, sometimes ripped wide open.” Duh, think there might be some serious lack of technique or protocols or husbandry there? Unfortunately, we usually don’t speak up when someone spouts such foolishness.

There’s just no reason for that. When dealing with lots of neonate or juvenile pythons that tend to bite frequently, wear gloves or use a small hook. There is nothing admirable in getting puncture wounds, or in provoking defensive strikes from frightened animals. The very fact that your warm bare hand isn’t right up in their faces goes a long way to getting them accustomed to being manipulated.

Regarding your specific incident with the boa, I’ve got to agree with Rob. There’s rarely a compelling reason to feed larger constricting snakes outside their normal enclosures. Regarding the incident with the Burmese python, unless a big snake is specifically facing away from me when I first open its cage, I try to always touch it first very lightly somewhere on the head with an inanimate object like a small snake hook to get its attention. I then follow up by pressing down gently with my hand on a coil. Then, unless the snake is an aggressive one, I know it is safe to begin moving it by hand. And finally, some keepers just seem to have a much better ability to “read” snakes than others do. I’ve always felt it was analogous to the “green thumb” that good gardeners possess.

Thanks again for bringing up this topic.

-Joan

Quote: "I think snake keepers can be divided into two groups: those who brag about their bites from snakes in general and close calls with giant snakes in particular; and those who consider each bite a little failure on their part and who probably have few if any close calls of the life threatening variety."

I completely agree with your catagories here. While I've gotten several bites from acclimating babies and one wc female SIGB to handling (for some reason it's mostly the pythons that nip me and rarely my boas, now that I think of it), I've only had the three bites from adult animals. I consider all of them my fault. The very first incident was several years ago when handling my tempermental adult female (she's been moody since the day I got her). I can generally read her and know when she's having a 'bad scale day' (to quote a friend). I startled her when I reached in to pick her up, skipping the 'hey I'm here' tactics I normally use, and she nipped my hand...nothing serious just a 'hey you startled me!' nip...completely my fault because I didn't follow protocol. The same goes for the situation with my male boa in the feeding tub, my fault because I'd had no intention of feeding him but used the tub anyway. With Baby (the burm), I haven't got a clue what triggered the bite, but I'm sure I did something, even if it was only missing that she was having a testy day. The snakes aren't to blame for acting like snakes, we are for expecting them to reason on our terms instead of theirs.

Quote: "I have seen some incredibly stupid posts regarding snake keeping and being bitten (not ignorant, stupid!). Most of them seem to be written by adolescent males (sorry guys, but it’s true). You know, along the lines of “I get bitten all the time” or “I have been bitten thousands of times, sometimes ripped wide open.” Duh, think there might be some serious lack of technique or protocols or husbandry there?"

I'm afraid I'm all too familiar with those types of comments. While I feel that bites are part and parcel of keeping snakes (things happen), I feel that the majority of them can be avoided with good handling practices. There are some snakes that are simply mildly psychotic and bite frequently regardless of handling practices (my female Dumerils comes to mind), but you can still typically avoid a bite using hooks and gloves. For myself, I don't care to be bitten and generally avoid it at all costs. I've been told by a person or two that I'm a 'wuss' for using gloves and hooks...Okay, I'm a wuss! To me there's no honor in being bitten.

Raven

Perhaps the snake bit you soley based upon its visual cue. I don't think scent is always necessary. I've seen a burmese strike a broom. That's one reason I always gently poke my green anaconda before picking it up out of his cage - to let him know its me (wishful thinking, right?).

Too true. Being bitten goes hand in hand with keeping snakes. I get bitten all the time. Not because I am necessarily foolish or careless, but because I prefer to get up close and personal with all my snakes. I have been bitten hundreds of times and have pretty much just gotten used to it. It's my choice to work up close and personal with my snakes and I accept full responsibility for the times that I get bitten. Some choose to feed their pythons with long tongs while wearing protective gloves and maybe even while being behind a protective shield. I will never feed this way, though I certainly have no objection or criticism to/for those that choose to feed that way. I just choose to personally hand the food to my pythons. I like the feeling of being "close" with my pets. I am certainly NOT stating that my way of feeding is "the right way" or "the way I advise a herper to feed". It isn't. It's just MY way. It's just the way I personally choose to feed. And this places me within range of being bitten. And yes, it does sometimes happen. But rarely. I'd say less than 3 or 4 times a year. And almost never by any considerably large snake. I think this is due to a combination of me being even more careful and the larger pythons being a lot slower and more deliberate in their strikes. The last time I was taken by a technically "giant" snake was back in 1986 or 87. So it's been a while. I think the largest snake I have been bitten by in recent years was maybe a 10 foot yearling female burm and that hardly even bled. In fact, even the times in my career that I was bitten or even wrapped by a giant python I was hardly hurt. And once was right in the face! The punctures or minor tears might have bled for a little while, but the damage was never extensive and always healed up in a week or two. Ironically, over the last 30 years, 18 of which were years of keeping scores of deadly venomous snakes, most of which were certainly of keeping scores of huge reptiles that could easily kill me under the right circumstances, the only bite that came near to killing me was a bite to my thumb from a feeder rat. It caused blood poisoning that nearly reached my heart and I was hospitalized. As I was growing up and keeping hots and giant reptiles all the older relatives and friends of mine always told me I would eventually be killed by a rattler or a python or an alligator. But never once did anyone imagine that the most dangerous thing of all was a feeder rat. Not even me. After that year, which was 1980, I always washed out rat bites with hydrogen peroxide upon getting bitten. And I check my viens for several days looking for telltale red lines. I worry about them rats some.

Now,.. I know that there are many folks that won't ever understand what I do or why. There's nothing I can do about that fact. But it is still a very controlled environment and I feel safe in my experience and knowledge. Like anyone else I prefer to never get bitten. I don't "like" it. But then at the same time,... I don't mind it a lot either and am quite used to it.

The most painful bite I ever recieved,.... about 5 months ago by a 7 foot Irian Jaya male that missed his rat and got my thumb and knuckles. His teeth hurt 10 times more than my experiences with a 12 or 13 foot burmese. (disclaimer: I am full well aware that large burmese can kill a person if they don't know how to get them off of them and as a result the bite of one is much more dangerous)

Do I suggest that any herper anywhere "hand feed their giant python"? NO I DO NOT! I suggest that everyone use long, safe tongs and practice as much safety as one possibly can. I also always advise that everyone ALWAYS feed their snake, regardless of the species, inside it's cage. If there are more than one snake to a cage, build or buy more cages until every snake has it's own cage.

Enough said.

>>I was discussing this with some friends on another board and it was mentioned how rarely anyone talks about getting bitten by their burms, especially large burms. In turn, that made me think that it's a subject that does need to be discussed. While we as keepers can limit the possibility of a bite from our pets, no one can say with any certainty that they absolutely will never be bitten by their snakes. Part of owning any snakes is the potential for bites. Sometimes those bites are our own fault - feeding errors (I'd be willing to bet the vast majority fall in this catagory) or sometimes simple carelessness, but also it can happen from no fault of our own but the snake simply acting by its own reasoning.
>>
>>The discussion started two weeks ago with a bite from one of my 7' male boas...strictly my own fault because I put the snake into a cleaned feeding tub (no prey scent) while I cleaned his cage instead of the usual pillow case I use on cleaning days. As soon as I touched the snake, he bit my hand and wrapped my arm. In his reptilian mind, the tub equaled feeding day and he nailed the first warm thing he sensed...unfortunately for me, it was my hand as I'd had no intention of feeding him when I placed him in the tub. It showed me that he had learned the association with the tub as I'd intended all along, and that I need to continue my practices once I've taught a specific behavioural response. I didn't take into consideration that he would expect food, since there was no prey to scent, simply because he was in a tub. For the record, this was the first time I'd ever been really nailed by one of my large boas, though I'd gotten a warning nip years ago from a rather testy and occassionally unpredicatable adult female boa I own. I've managed to remain generally bite-free from any but newly hatched/born animals or wild caught animals.
>>
>>Then this past Sunday, my 13' female burmese landed a good bite on the same hand (only my 3rd bite from an adult animal in 13 years of keeping snakes). In her case, there was no discernable reason for the bite. I've assisted in her care for the past two years when my best friend owned her...every feeding, every cleaning, every 'play' time. We handled her while she was in complete blue when the cage needed cleaning, removed retained sheds, bathed her, moved her and handled her in every situation possible save just before or after a meal and the snake never acted aggressive in any way...not even so much as a hiss. I've had her for three to four months now, maybe a bit longer. While she has had to adjust to different living conditions (a new house, new cage, and cats in the new home - obviously they're shut out of the room when she's out), she fed regularly and has adjusted just fine with no acts of aggression. I use the same routine every time, the same one used for two years now and indeed her entire life - one set of doors is used for only feeding and the other for visits, I always wash up before opening the cage (no residual scents on me), and touch her to let her know I'm about to take her out - I've never used a hook with her (though I'm going to now). As I went to move her out of the cage, the next thing I know she is attached to my hand...my whole hand in her mouth with a single coil partially around my forearm. She seemed to immediately know I was not prey as she didn't constrict but neither did she let go (rubbing alcohol really does work). I've run through every scenario I could possibly think of, and there's really no explaining it. I can't find a single reason for her to change her usual behaviour.
>>
>>It sums up as this: basically she's a snake and is acting like a snake. These beautiful animals are predators (which many people forget) and no amount of reasoning on our part is going to explain every behaviour. As keepers, we often become complacent in handling our animals...they're typically gentle with an even disposition and are rarely known to bite (but is that really the fact or is it that no one discusses it?). Even when we are careful, we have no way of knowing when the unexpected will happen. I bring this up because I see more and more people getting into burms or other giant constrictors, and I don't always think everyone thinks of all the repercusions of owning a giant. That $30 normal or $100 albino baby burm at the reptile show looks cute and appealing, but doesn't stay that way. I'm the third owner of my girl. Luckily for me, the incident looked much worse than it actually was - though I bled a fair amount, none of the cuts were very deep from her teeth, and none were over any major arteries or veins near the skin's surface. I had another adult in attendance and immediately able to assist when an unexpected situation arose. How different could it have turned out had I not been prepared? How many of us take risks with our 'tame' pets that could one day put us in harm's way?
>>
>>I just wanted to share this experience to make others think. I'm not putting anyone down for their practices nor do I expect to be lambasted for getting bitten. As long as any of us keep these animals in captivity, it's a real possibility that it could happen to any one of us. Does this mean I'm getting rid of my girl? Heck no! She's still a good snake and deserves a good home. Does it mean my practices are going to change and evolve after this? You betcha! I just though we might be long overdue to discuss what can and does happen when keeping these beautiful giants.
>>
>>I'll check in tomorrow to see what's posted. I'm homeward bound for the day.
>>
>>Raven
-----
"Sure,... you say that now. But what will you say when you are looking into my dark, merciless eyes." [Walter Wego]

"Charlie won because we never knew where he was. We had superior numbers, but he had stealth, patience, and sheer determination to prevail. We lost the moment we decided to engage, only it took us 10 years to lie down and die." [General Enevi Tability on the Vietnam war]

“I just choose to personally hand the food to my pythons. I like the feeling of being "close" with my pets.”

Well, it IS kind of hard to argue with feelings. If that’s what you like, then that’s what you like. I am glad you don’t recommend that technique to others on a giant python forum! But just the fact that you say you do this perhaps sends a different message to the less sophisticated readers here. Anyway, I am curious as to WHY you think this is a good husbandry practice for you.

I think most experienced herp people know that feeding goes smoothest for any snake when one just places frozen/thawed food in its enclosure and walks away, allowing the animal to find the food and ingest it without any big drama. Of course, some snakes seem to require the food to be warm and/or to move which brings tweezers, hemostats or tongs into play. I don’t understand why anyone would offer a pinkie to a hatchling corn snake with one’s big bare hands; or a rat to an adult carpet python; so why offer a rabbit to a giant python like that. I can’t see that it would do anything other than intimidate a tiny snake, and make it more difficult for any snake to distinguish where the food ended and the human began. In other words, why complicate a usually straightforward practice?

So, I’d bet a lot of us would agree with that part of your statement about enjoying “being ‘close’ with my pets” in GENERAL, but feel that hand feeding giant snakes sounds downright goofy, even for us reptile enthusiasts (not to mention unnecessarily dangerous). You said, “I know that there are many folks that won't ever understand what I do or why.” Why not help us understand? Again, what benefits does it bestow on your animals? And do you feed all your snakes by hand, or just the really large ones?

Thanks,
Joan

I really love my snakes and enjoy interacting with them...until it comes to feeding time. I use long hemastats to offer food to everyone but my large female burm, who eats live rabbits as I have been thus far unable to switch her to something that is not moving. Even my 10" (yep, that's inches) female Santa Isabel ground boa is fed with hemastats. Obviously she couldn't hurt me with a bite if she tried but I don't ever want my snakes to associate my hand with prey. The bite I got from my big female burm was not serious but very easily could have been. The only deep puncture was on my thumb, making it very sore but not life threatening. I didn't bother to get stitches since the cut was so short in length, but have simply kept it taped. Had her bite landed just above my wrist or near my elbow, with all those lovely major veins and arteries so near the surface, the story could have been much different. While no one can tell you how to handle your animals, many new herpers are led by example and not by instruction. Regardless of what you say, they see from your own words that hand feeding is okay, when it really isn't and could be potentially dangerous. I'm not blasting you, just wondering as well why you would put yourself at such risk?

Raven