Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi!
I am feeding my baby Herman a mixture of green leafy lettuce, clover, grass, kale, cucumber, broccoli, celery, carrot and every few days maybe a small peice of tomato. I am also dusting it with reptivite and reptocal. Do you guys think this is a balanced enought diet? Should I be changing this sometimes? Once winter is over I can start feeding him more flowers and weeds from outside.
Was just hoping I could get some advice. Thanks!

For some reason I don't like feeding cucumber and broccoli but that's just a personal preference on my part. If you've only got one or two tortoises I'd suggest feeding the packaged greens you find in the produce section of the grocery store. I can't believe the variety that they have to offer. Then throw in some... MAZURI CHOW. The torts ill love you for it. But to answer your question... yes it is probably varied enough for the winter feeding. I threw in the other stuff to give you more ideas.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Take away the tomato, Cah is bad, to much oxalicacid and it is ok so far. Feed some hey. Mazuri is something I wouldn't feed my hermanns, to much protein etc. Rahter natural hey and it is just fine. (based on newest doctoral thesis in europe by the way, these guys should know...)

(based on newest doctoral thesis in europe by the way, these guys should know...)

Can you give a reference for this dissertation? Or just the Author, Title, and University?

Thanks,
griffin

Becki, you should easily be able to go out now and get more than enough weeds for your tortoise, which is the best diet for him. I only have to pick weeds maybe a couple times a week, and I always end up tossing some. Look for dandelion, plantain, mallow, sow thistle, cranesbill, etc.--they grow all over the place around here. Here's a link for ID for you:

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/weeds_common.html

You really shouldn't need to buy any food, especially not now. Also look for prickly pear, and in a few months mulberry and grape leaves (make sure you get your leaves from an unsprayed source). One good place to find a variety of weeds is an older cemetery. I'm not sure about Ukiah, but there's an old cemetery near my kids' school, and there's at least 7 or 8 different kinds of tortoise plants there. Once you know what to look for, you'll see tortoise food everywhere!
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Thanks for the info! I will check out that web site tonight once all the rugrats are in bed! It is kind of hard to focus on something when all four kids are running around the house!!!.

All of the weeds Sohni mentioned are great and should compose the vast majority of his food if at all possible. Use store-bought greens only when you have to.

I see the fanatical Mazuri pushers have already swooped down right on schedule. Forget the Mazuri. It is not right for a Hermann's tortoise.

There are those that have used the stuff and like the results and then there are those that have not used the stuff and don't like the results.
I know there are also those that have tried the stuff but their tortoises won't eat it.
But I've yet to see a write up from someone who has used the stuff with bad results.
But I guess it goes along the lines of 'because I don't like it, it is bad'.
curious.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I did feed Mazuri, especially when Moxie had hookworm and I was having trouble getting him to eat much (he loves Mazuri), but I have since stopped because I was beginning to see a rapid weight gain and a very slight lifting of his scutes. Now I only use Mazuri to give meds., as needed, and the rapid gain has slowed down. I do give him a varied diet that is almost exclusively weeds, so I'm less worried about his nutrition than I was before, when he was eating much less. When he is able to go outside, he forages for himself.

This is just one experience with one tortoise, of course.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

How often did you feed the Mazuri and did you feed it exclusively?
What do you mean by a lifting of the scutes?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I fed probably the equivalent of one kibble every couple days, so total about 3-4/week. The scutes aren't exactly raised, but the shell is not as smooth as it should be. Mind you, I'm not blaming that on the Mazuri per se. I might have had better results with more occasional use. Right now, I'm happy with the results I'm seeing with a weed-only diet. So I wouldn't say I'm an unhappy Mazuri user, but like Brad, noncommital at least.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Do you provide a warm/humid hide for the little guy?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Yep, and regular soaks, too. MV lamps (trying out the 60w external ballast to see if that lasts longer), outside pen all summer, etc., etc. The only reason I can see for a less-than-smooth shell is too rapid growth (and he was also quite large for his age when I got him, so it's likely that with care his shell will smooth out).
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

There's not many things I can state as fact. One of the things that I can state as fact is that rapid growth does not cause pyramiding. Pyramiding might occur in animals that have been grown quicker than what is considered normal. Many people raise rapidly grown tortoises with no pyramiding.
How long have you had the tortoise?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I've only had him about 7 months, and I know, I'm paranoid. I don't worry all that much about nutrition now because I have year-round access to a variety of broad-leafed weeds, plus I have several different collection sites, and I'm guessing (assuming) different soils mean different nutrients. Most of the areas where I forage haven't been cultivated for years (such as an old cemetery). I realize it's still not the same as grazing in the wild, but it's reasonably close, so I don't feel the same need to give him a commercial diet as I did when he had hookworm and wasn't eating much.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Hi

Interesting topic, I have to take it from the european side now. We over here have been working intensivly on this thing now and all analyses (Literature: Dennert: Ernährung von Schildkröten, Baur: Doctoral Thesis on Intestinal Anatomy of tortoise etc.) show that all these pellet food are not good for tortoise, at least for species of the Genera Testudo. the only pellet food which passed the test was Agrobs, containing only herbs. Mazori contains too much protein which leads to a very fast (not healthy) growth, as EJ mentioned, this is not healthy, furtermore the intestinals of Testudos are not prepared for soy, grains and stuff. Pyramiding seems to be taking place due to high protein diet ! keeping the animals to dry.
A couple of the largest german websites just startet a new beginners guide: www.landschildkroeten.com/beginners_guide.htm which contains the newest scientific information as well as knowledge from about 30 years of keeping and breeding european Testudos. It is only available in german so far, but I believe the images and babelfish will help a lot.
Best regards

Torsten

www.landschildkroeten.com

This has more to do with dogma rather than the well being of the animal. I can't say much more than that. I'll continue to use Mazuri Tortoise Diet and recommend it until I see a negative indication that I can't deal with. It's a shame because it obviously has components that is, without a doubt, beneficial to the animal.
Could you provide me with some references that prove it is bad for animals?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi Ed

I gave the references, but in detail again:
Baur, M.: Untersuchungen zur vergleichenden Morphologie des Gastrointestinaltraktes der Schildkröten
Dennert, C.: Ernährung von Landschildkröten
Just to mention 2 common accesible ones, there are some doctoral thesis as well.
These are facts... If you feed a Testudo with natural wild herbs, add some calcium to it, have it outside in summer and hibernating in winter all this soy,grain, vit stuff is nonsens, and sorry to say this but I believe you should trust us germans in the Testudo business

I trust you are set in your ways and there is not much I can say about that.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Altavista Babelfish does a horrible job of translating that website. I gave up trying to read it after a couple paragraphs.

If you could possibly provide us a brief summary of the method used to analyze the pelleted diets and the basic results, that would be very nice.

Please note that almost no one is using these pellets as the complete diet for their tortoises.

It's usually a supplement, something to fill in the gaps, add a little fiber when the natural weeds and greens are unavailable.

I'll bet no one is using this a single source of nutrition for their animals.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

asdfsda

So do you agree that if I have a year-round availability of weeds, there is no real reason to use Mazuri (supplementary or otherwise)?
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

It seems that way. Where I live the weeds are gone from around December to March. And they get kind of sparse in the middle of summer before bouncing back. Area grocers (that I've seen) don't carry dandelion greens or cactus pads.

I've found that my torts develop runny stools on straight grocery greens like turnip or collards. So Mazuri, especially with a some soaked timothy hay mixed in, really keeps the fiber levels high. It also makes it easier to add some extra calcium to the diet. Calcium powder often falls of the greens before it is consumed, but mixes easily into the mazuri/hay mush.

So if you have lotsa weeds, go for it. I'd still add some calcium on a regular basis. And some multi-vitamin every once in awhile to be safe.

Yeah, California is great for year-round weeds (lol). I can even get cactus pads at the grocery store (although they're pretty puny looking; I collect mine), as well as organic dandelion if necessary. I'll be able to get unsprayed grape and mulberry leaves in another month, and my dad grows hibiscus 5 mins. away from here. I can even get cactus fruit every once in a while (I'm sorry to say I swiped one from Luther Burbank's gardens a couple months ago--there's a huge prickly pear there).

I still dust with calcium and use Herptivite sparingly, though.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

All pelleted diets are far lower in fiber than natural vegetation. Mazuri does in fact slow down and impede digestion for this reason. Fiber is extremely important to tortoises and that is why weeds and grasses are the best things to feed them. Store-bought lettuce and other vegetables are much lower in fiber than natural weeds and grasses, due to human engineering.

And how do you know this if you haven't used it? Ahhhhh... the study that you have in front of you. Can you pleased provide the citation so we might all benefit from this wisdom?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Mazuri is 18% fiber, foods listed as commonly consumed by wild desert tortoises (found on www.tortoise.org) range from 21 to 37% fiber, and grocery greens (lettuces, collards, other "greens" range from 6 to 11%. The timothy hay I use for my torts is listed as 32% fiber. So Mazuri has more fiber than grocery foods but less than many wild items and hay.

I think somewhere in this argument I stated that my torts get the runs when on grocery greens alone. If I feed the torts Mazuri with hay then the bowels are firm. I've tried greens with hay but that doesn't mix as well. And if I feed them straight Mazuri they gain weight too fast.

I don't use Mazuri as directed (1-4% of bodyweight in Mazuri per day, with some fresh hay.) I think my torts would turn into blimps on that. I don't think anyone here does use it as the main item. Except for sonodog, who used it for galaps (for which Mazuri is designed) and did not like the results.

How great can a product be if we don't use it as directed?

I don't think anyone said that Mazuri Tortoise Diet was great. I might have said that I like it and I thought it was great because it fits my need. I know the diet is not perfect as is but it does have components that seem to be missing in many diets.
Conversations like this seem to stress that point and reduce the risk of someone actually believing that this, or any single component, should be fed as a single diet. While I've been trying this as a single diet on some animals, I don't recommend this to anyone. I believe it can be used as a single diet if you watch the frequency... but that's another idea.
Even with a 'natural' diets most people are going to find deficiencies and then they are going to try and tweek it. Considering the kind of animals we are dealing with that is the only way you are going to find what is right diet for your tortoise.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I would have said how great is a product if it can't be used as directed.
I'm sure those that manufacture this stuff get wind of conversations like this and do look into the argument. Hopefully, if they want to sell the stuff and there is any merit to this argument, they might implement some change.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Mark me down as someone who has used Mazuri and has come to the conclusion that it hasn't killed my tortoises yet.

Meaning that I can't tell if it helps or hurts. It's a manufactured food product. Something made out of foods not generally consumed by tortoises (soy and grains) that is then loaded up with vitamins and minerals to overcome the shortcomings of soy and grains.

It seems that if I pay attention to how much my tortoises weigh and how fast they are growing, then a little Mazuri once or twice a week doesn't seem to do any harm. I've noticed that if I feed it more often, or feed them more per meal, then their weight can increase rapidly.

So I'll continue to use it as a supplement, as an easy way to get some fiber and calcium into my torts especially during the winter when weeds are scarce. When weeds are available, then I barely use the Mazuri, and the tortoises eagerly consume the weeds.

But if Mazuri went out of business tomorrow, I would not shed a tear. It's only a product that to me appears marginally different from other canned tortoise foods or even items marketed for herbivorous mammals.

Now if you could tell us with some detail what are the good results you see from using Mazuri, that would be very helpful.

Sincerely,

Regular but unenthusiastic user of Mazuri tortoise chow

I've posted pictures of many animals that have been consuming the stuff for about 3 years now. The growth is smooth for the most part. The growth is also fast which I don't know if it is good or bad. They pass firm well formed fecal pellets. They have bright pink tongues and seem to be active and alert. I've seen this in every species of tortoise that I've used the stuff on.
But, like you, all I can say is that it hasn't killed my, or anyone elses tortoise that has use it, yet. As with anything I feed my tortoises, I let them tell me if it is good or bad. It just seems that they have found a good general balance but also, as you have figured out, it does not seem to be complete because you seem to get better results if you use it as a supplement.
I've got a couple of groups that I use the stuff almost exclusively on. They get greens occasionally.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Will do! I have no idea what Mazeri or however you spell it is anyway so I guess I don't have to worry! Thanks for your advice.

I forgot to tell you, if you have trouble finding wild dandelion, you should be able to get it at the grocery store. I know Safeway here carries it. It's kind of expensive for just one little tortoise, though, lol.

Since Herman is so little, you might want to run his greens through a chopper or food processor to make the pieces a little more manageable, add the vitamins/calcium, and feed him a couple teaspoons or so a day. That way, he can't pick out what he likes best, and he'll get a good variety. The greens will keep for about 5 days in a ziploc baggie like that.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Thanks Sohni!

I was just giving him a bunch of food..torn up a little but not small enough I guess. I will try that and see if he eats better that way.

I used mazuri once with 2 baby galaps I had to keep indoors thru the winter when I lived in North Carolina for 6 months. All the outside weeds had died due to the hard winter there and the produce in the store was very expensive and of poor quality--at least by California standards-- I fed mazuri as about 80 to 90% of the diet. The little guys loved it, but after 2 or 3 months, they were lethargic, obese and started to pyramid. Mazuri was supposedly developed for Galaps, so I was very disapointed with it and I will never use it again. I have keped baby Galaps indoors thru the winter in California under the exact same husbandry except fed mostly yard clippings and cactus with a little store bought greens thrown in and they did very well untill spring came in. Untill I read a report showing pelleted food growing naturaly where wild tortoises forage, I wont use it.

There ya go... an unsatisfied customer that has actually used the stuff.
But I can't help but wonder what was the feeding frequency, how much water was available and what, exactly, were the environmental conditions the animal was kept under. I'll be willing to bet even the controlled conditions are going to be different in the different areas.
But, hey, if you don't like the stuff don't use it.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed--Ok, the specs that those 2 baby galaps were kepted under are as follows-- They had a whole utility room to themselves. It was about 8' wide and 15' long. there was a space heater on a shelf to boost the ambient temp of the room to about 85f. in 2 opposit corners of the room, there was a mercury vaper bulb set on a 14 hour on and a 10 off cycle timer and a pearlco heating element. these were suspended 2 feet off the ground hanging from their power cords attached to extension cords that were attached to the ceiling. In one corner, there was a ceramic "pig blanket" heat mat with a temp regulator to keep it off "bake and bubble" mode. there was 2 shallow dishes of water in the room. one under heat and one not. The one under the heat raised the ambient humidity and allowed them to bask while soaking. Temps along the floor of the room ranged from about 80f to about 100f. There was also a hiding areas that were probably a little cooler if they wanted it. Like I said, they were fed about 80 to 90% mazuri. The rest was some weeds I saw growing along a stream that did not freeze across the street from the house I rented there. I don't know the name of this weed, but I have seen it growing in California as well as there in North Carolina. I have fed it in the past extensively to various vegetarian reptiles and never had a problem with it. Before I fed the weeds, I briefly dipped them in boiling water and then an ice bath and into the freezer till I needed them. I did this to kill off any paracites that may have been on them as there were plenty of wild reptiles in the area in warmer months, plus some of the local rednecks were eating these "greens" raw and it was hard to find anybody there with a decent set of teeth left after the age of 25. The weeds were dusted with calcium powder fortified with powdered seaweed to provide some iodine.
Ed, I realy wish the mazuri would have worked for me. It is so convenient to dump a bunch on the floor and forget about it. If it works for you, you should use. More power to ya. Iguess if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?
Elliott