Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey im new here on kingsnake.com...well my question is...is the market for ball pythons still growing because i visited some site and the answer is yes...but then i dont know if they are just stating that because they need more business or because its true.....well my gut feeling tells me it very wise to invest...but is it too late now because if i get a pair of morph balls and they mature in about 2-3 yrs....wouldnt the prices drop and less in of a demand? and whats the easiest and cheapest way of starting because my cash is low.....and what morph would u guy recommend out there.....i was looking at some 50% vpi axanthics...what can you make with axanthics besides true ghosts and snow balls....they are a group of 2.4....thanks for all the respones...

MHO is the market is still strong. The morphs I would recommend is albino and pieds. If the market were to go down and any of these 2 morphs lets say 1k a piece you would still make your money back. If you are low in cash I would go with a pair of 100% hets. Dont mess with poss it is not worth it and it will prolong your invest which in turn will make your loose money. Just my 2 pennies

Possible hets are a lot of....tell me about it! But look at it this way. I spent little to none on some possible hets....What would happen if one of my het clowns hit? Or if I produce a snow this year?.......be nice for a little bit of work.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

If I were you buy the males. Cheaper and they can produce the daughters. Then dad breeds back to daughters. With mom you might need to wait loner to prove her unless you have the morph itself.
I am going to breed my spider to my axanthic.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

I was wondering. Could you start with, say, a male Pastel for their price and breed it to two normal females. Then outbreed the Pastel offspring, then breed back to the original with a skipped generation? Or would this not work? I'm thining it would add about two years, at least, to the program unless the original three are purchased as adults and actually breed their first year. As you know, I'm not overly concerned with a quick return but, I don't want to wait 6-8 years either.

I'm trying to take the best of both worlds and put them together for my own niche.

Thank you

I can not see why you could not do that.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

Cool. Do you know if anyone else has done something similar? I'd love to be able to find a comparison.

Out breeding your 1st generation pastels, then then breeding the next generation to the father would add 2-3 years to creating superpastels. Why not breed the father to his daughters? Are you worrying about inbreeding depression? Are you compairing snakes to dogs again? Yes I know the theory, line breeding concentrates unwanted unhealthy genes along with the traits that you are working towards... But quite frankly, I've been breeding snakes for a dozen years, have done a lot of inbreeding, in fact I have a line of corns that are now 4th generation siblings. And I'm just not seeing any problem. I've not run into any deformities, no feeding problems, no fertility problems, no apparent health problems at all. Sure, a dozen more years from now I may run into some problems caused by inbreeding but so far I haven't had any problems, and I haven't talked to any other breeders that have been doing this for a number of years that can prove that any problems they may have are due to problems from inbreeding either... These are much simpler life forms then the dogs you seem to be so anxious to use as a comparison.

Binky

I expected it to add at least two years, if I don't start with adults. And I realize that would add to cost a little. First, I'll try to explain myself and then what I'm thinking.

I'm not concerned with immediate effects and I'm not comparing them to dogs. Please don't be so anxious to jump down my throat. I know about cars and I know about dog breeding, I don't know quite as much as about reptile breeding, however. That's why I used those two examples, I understand them and the compairsons make sense in my head. But I really don't want that subject to get started again. Let's please just agree to disagree and move on. I'm trying to take the best of both worlds, like I said in my question to Rick. As you said, it isn't a problem now but it might be in 10, 20 or more years. Why not take a proactive approach to it? New ideas aren't bad things, they're just new. It might not work, but it might.

With that said, here's what I'm thinking. I'm not saying that you, or anyone else, should do this...it's just an idea I had while reading the board earlier.

$2,500 limit for animals, assuming both females produce clutches of 2-2-1.

One male Pastel and two female hets. I haven't quite figured out which hets yet, maybe Axanthic and Albino. But I also don't know which would match best. All three from seperate lines so the cluths are only half siblings. Now, you've got four Pastels and six possible hets. Keep the best ones of each sex, sell the others and reinvest in say, a male Albino from a fourth line. I'm sure you can see how he'd work in there. Breed that guy to a second generation female and then breed a female from that clutch back to the original male. Now, I've got four different blood lines to work with, right off the bat. I've got some keys and some money makers for reinvestment into the program. It seems like it would work, to me. It might take an extra few years. But it might also be worth it. I'm not really shooting for a Super Pastel right out of the gate, or I'd just buy a male and a female...from different lines, of course.

So, that's my idea. Thank you for your time.

(this is all my opinion....of course)

There are morphs that have very recently become available (some examples are lavender albino balls and spider balls- and combinations), there are morphs that will be available in the near future (just 2 examples are leucistic balls, and piebald lavender albino), and there are morphs that have yet to have been discovered and/or combined (use your imagination - we'll probably see it some day- just check out the B&W ball pic on this forum- NICE!!). When all is said and done, there will be 3 dozen or more DISTINCT types of color and pattern varieties of ball pythons available- imagine 15-20 years from now. Considering the time required to see such projects to completion (small clutch sizes of ball pythons, they don't necessarily breed EVERY year) it stands to reason that it will take quite a while for the ball python market to die down. The future will bring an even greater divulgence between the reptile market and the ball python market. However, prices will and MUST drop in order to further expand the market. However, there is no reason to believe that the market will crash (as some people do). This is not an economic imperative, this is due only to people's perception and fears. And consider that even if the prices were to suddenly be cut to third of their present values, the effort would still be highly profitable.

Now the real question for you is WHICH ONE TO START WITH? ...Choose carefully. With little money to spend, I recommend going with a morph that the general public finds to be most attractive. Remember, you want an animal that has the most potential to mov into an expanding market. Eventually, the animals you produce will find their way into the pet trade (i.e. the general public).

I have albinos, so you might expect me to be a bit biased toward albinos. Well, that's true. A good contrasting albino is still one of the most attractive morphs available and the prices have dropped into reality.

So, I will use the albino as an example: Albinos are still being sold for low to mid 2K, and can be purchased from more obscure breeders for mid to high 1K as well (i.e. I offer my '04 hatchlings at 75% of Bob Clark's listed price). I predict their market value 3 years from now to be from about 3/4 of present value, or about $1800 from established breeders. However, you may have to go less than market value if you are an unknown. Either way, you should be able to sell albinos that you produce 3 years from now for a bare minimum of $1200. You might pay 10K for a group of 2 males and 4 females today. But if you get ONLY 2 good clutches in 3 years (12 hatchlings) and sell them at only 1.2K, then your investment is recouped (for both animals AND equipment) and the REST IS GRAVY. That's the way I look at it. For most any morph, one has the ability to recoup their investment AND MORE after the first year of production. Even if the prices dropped to $500 by the time you produce, if you get all 4 females to produce (a distinct possibility) then your initial investment is still recovered. AS LONG AS YOU CARE FOR THE ANIMALS AND KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, THE RISK IS FAIRLY LOW.

The newer and more attractive the morph, the better the investment. Of course, not many have the money to spend 70K for a pair of het leucistic ball pythons, or 10K for a pair of het lavender albino ball pythons.

I don't understand the market nearly as well as those who have been active for the last decade. But, I expect the average prices for many morphs to start dropping in several years in order to expand the market. EXAMPLE: A morph for which let's say 100 animals exist today might command 10K due primarily to its rarity. However, I believe (I could be VERY wrong) that similar rarity in the future cannot command such a price. Eventually, we will approach the limit of how many people are willing to pay several thousand dollars for a snake. However, this does not mean breeding ball pythons in the future will not be well worth the effort.

i am new to this i've been buying up stock in the past year or 2. I feel positive about the market being in good shape for a long time to come. Once you realize how many different balls there are out there the combinations are endless. I agree in saying that don't waste you time with possible hets. I bought a possible het & then a week later started paying off 100 hets. It saves alot of time & less trial & error. So my possible is just my pet now. I have het pieds & het albinos. Personally I started with the goal of breeding for albino's. If you are going to buy hets I say albino & piebald is a great way to go. I personally don't care for the way adult axanthics i've seen tend to look. but I will get one eventually because I want a snow. I say if you are looking for your money back the quickest way to go with a male pastel. After getting my het pairs I now realize that pastels would turn around quicker. Say you get a pari of pied hets for 2500 or 3000. Now pastel being co-dominant you should get a good couple of pastels in a clutch. It should ratio half clutch normal - half clutch pastel. So instead of the money for the hets you can spend 1200 on a male pastel (I've seen em for 900 in the classifieds) & 2 adult females for a couple hundred more. Now you have to clutches of eggs that should both produce some pastels. Now you have 1200 dollar snakes to trade & sell for other morphs. If you are strapped for cash ask around to breeders for payments plans.
that's what i did.
ralph davis did payments
& i bought my snakes from D&M BREEDERS in NJ. He was always willing to work a payment plan.
good luck
let us know what you decide

have a good weekend

Who knows what the Ball Python market holds but........

wouldnt the prices drop and less in of a demand?

HUH?? This is the exact OPPOSITE of supply and demand theory. LOL!!!!!!! When the price drops, the demand doesn't decrease. I think you should go slap your economics professor silly.

...when demand decreases, prices go down in an effort to increase the demand. My economics teacher taught me that when demand goes up prices go up, and when demand goes down prices go down. But, when supply goes up demand goes down, and when supply goes down demand goes up. That's why you can get more money for a morph such as a leucy which has a very small supply. But in five years, the demand for $70,000 leucys will go down, and so the price will drop to say $45,000 in order to maintain the demand.

....if price was adjusted down independently of demand, then the opposite would occur and demand would increase...and your 1000 albino bps would have 1500 potential buyers.

You're right, it depends on what comes first. If the demand drops on its own (market flood, craze is over, etc etc) then prices will fall. But if the prices fall first because of larger supply (the MOST likely scenario), then demand would go up to meet the production. The point where supply and demand intersect.

n/p

I agree with slytherin. Get a pair of pastels for lets say 3K and an additional normal female for whatever and breed them. The pair of pastels give you the possibility of producing a superpastel($$$$) and an assortment of pastels. And the extra female will produce a couple of pastels as well. For the money I think this is your best plan of action. Then after a year or two of breeding these you can skip the hets all together and jump right into the other higher end morphs(albino, pieds, spiders). Just my thoughts. Todd

Here is what I would suggest. DON"T GET A SNAKE!!!!!!! Obviously you are just interested in making money and that is deffinatley the wrong reason to get a snake. The lack of respect you are showing the animal by asking these questions is disgusting. Snakes or for that matter any animal is not to be purchased cheap and sold for a profit like a building or possesion. The fact that you don't have alot of money tells me that most likley the snakes would be under cared for and/or ignored, infrequently fed and horribly maintained. I URGE YOU TO RECONSIDER

HARSH MAN

Just my 2 cents,

Obviously I speak for myself, but my main motivation regarding morphs and the market is not whether the market will be strong in the foreseeable future, but as a hobbyist I make the investment because I love the animals and have a passion for the hobby.

I think if you get into this hobby with the expectation of becoming wealthy, and not because you have a passion for the animals, I’m afraid the likelihood for success is rather slim.

The only advice I would feel comfortable giving if you have aspirations to successfully breed hi-end morphs, is: Before you invest a lot of money on any morph, purchase a pair of CB Normals and get a feel for what it takes to produce ball pythons effectively.

If the market holds strong than the advantage for me (the small time hobbyist) is, a greater ability to support my passion.

I hope this message finds everyone healthy and well,

Jason Kuta