Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so here's the story. Somebody gave me a female Bubblegum Rat (albino black ratX Albino everglades from what I've been told). I had expected to get albino babies from this un-holy crossing. But instead I just got these psycho crack babies that I've nicknamed Beelzebub ratsnakes. All hatched out completely normal. Before I could get them out of the incubator they were striking and biting everything in sight. This includes two of these little monsters that decided to gnaw on one anothers heads!! Psycho is an accurate description! In addition each one has a unique but very visible Jolly Rodger scull shaped head pattern!

I'd be curious to hear opinions on what you think they look like. I found it interesting that the albino gene in the obsoleta group is on a different aleal than the guttata group. I had assumed that the close relation would have made it the same gene. This is interesting mostly due to the fact that if one were to breed these babies to one another you would have the possibility of getting two amelanisims being expressed at the same time.

Just thought I would share.

Another photo in the typical "I'm going to kill you position."

There are so many genes that lead to the production of melanin that odds are against it being the same mutation (it's too early for me to figure out how alleles work into it, that makes my head hurt on good days). In ball pythons there are several identical looking lines of axanthics that aren't genetically compatible. Strange that they're so hyper, maybe they'll grow out of it?

Breed 'em back to corns and you can get your own bloodred line started! Sweet.

heh...maybe they have some texas rat blood in them...I would say a large percentage of the rats I have found act in that manner...I had one or two little ones that were CB that you literally could not touch or they would latch onto your finger (not exactly painful at their size). Andy
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Andy Maddox
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Ah, I got mine as an adult so I missed that lovely stage in their life, I guess.

>>Ok, so here's the story. Somebody gave me a female Bubblegum Rat (albino black ratX Albino everglades from what I've been told) ...
>>I'd be curious to hear opinions on what you think they look like. I found it interesting that the albino gene in the obsoleta group is on a different aleal than the guttata group ...

Some time ago, I was discussing this effect of breeding "albino" black rat snakes. I was advised that the allele that hosts amelanism in corn snakes, is the allele controlling the T-minus gene. In black rat snakes (also, presumably in 'Glades and bubbleguym rats), the cause of the amelanism may be controlled by either the T-minus or the T-plus gene locus (and some individuals may even be double-homo or double-het for both T-minus AND T-plus).

In the mating that you've carried out, the corn snake contributed a T-minus amelanism allele, and the rat snake contributed a T-plus amelanism allele. But the babies also each inherited normal alleles at the same loci from the opposite parent. Hence, your babies are phenotypically normal coloured, but all are het for both T-minus and T-plus amelanism.

I have purebred Panthrophis obsoletus obsoletus that are "albino," but I've not yet determined whether or not their amelanism is T-minus or T-plus, I shall probably have to use test-mating with amel corns, to prove what these rats are.

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tricia

Trish,
I think you might have it a bit sideways here.

The T-negative gene in obsoletus and guttata are on different Allels. Both the Amel corn and the Amel Bubblegum are T-negative amels. The T-neg amel gene in Corns doesn't mix with the T-neg gene in obsoletus. So in my self named "Beelzebub Rat" you could breed them to either obsoletus or guttata and get albinos. Or, you could breed them together and get Two forms of T-neg amel expressed simultaneously.

Chris

>>Some time ago, I was discussing this effect of breeding "albino" black rat snakes. I was advised that the allele that hosts amelanism in corn snakes, is the allele controlling the T-minus gene. In black rat snakes (also, presumably in 'Glades and bubbleguym rats), the cause of the amelanism may be controlled by either the T-minus or the T-plus gene locus (and some individuals may even be double-homo or double-het for both T-minus AND T-plus).

In the mating that you've carried out, the corn snake contributed a T-minus amelanism allele, and the rat snake contributed a T-plus amelanism allele. But the babies also each inherited normal alleles at the same loci from the opposite parent. Hence, your babies are phenotypically normal coloured, but all are het for both T-minus and T-plus amelanism.

I have purebred Panthrophis obsoletus obsoletus that are "albino," but I've not yet determined whether or not their amelanism is T-minus or T-plus, I shall probably have to use test-mating with amel corns, to prove what these rats are.

I've given you the explanation that fits with the information I rec'd from Paul Hollander. I'm sure he told me that the T-neg that is found in the amel guttata IS at the same location as the T-neg found in the obsoletus, but that corns do not possess the T-pos mutant gene.

If this is incorrect, can you please cite sources to which I may refer to ensure that I have the correct information?

>>Trish,
>>I think you might have it a bit sideways here.
>>
>>The T-negative gene in obsoletus and guttata are on different Allels. Both the Amel corn and the Amel Bubblegum are T-negative amels. The T-neg amel gene in Corns doesn't mix with the T-neg gene in obsoletus. So in my self named "Beelzebub Rat" you could breed them to either obsoletus or guttata and get albinos. Or, you could breed them together and get Two forms of T-neg amel expressed simultaneously.

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tricia

I don't have any resource material to quote from. All I have are the offspring from parents of known genetic background. Maybe you can have Hollander look at this thread and give his input?

Chris

>>I've given you the explanation that fits with the information I rec'd from Paul Hollander. I'm sure he told me that the T-neg that is found in the amel guttata IS at the same location as the T-neg found in the obsoletus, but that corns do not possess the T-pos mutant gene.

If this is incorrect, can you please cite sources to which I may refer to ensure that I have the correct information?

Saw the reference to this thread on the corn snake forum, so I figured I'd comment.

Bern Bechtel tested T-pos and T-neg black rat snakes for tyrosinase activity. He also crossed the two mutant black rat lines and got normal-looking babies. He reported this in the Journal of Heredity, 1985. Sorry, don't have the full reference at this time.

Bechtel also tested the amelanistic corn and determined that it was T-neg. I've seen the paper, but I'd have to dig the reference out of one of the bibliographies in Bechtel's color variants book.

I do not claim that the T-neg mutant in the corn snake is identical to the T-neg allele in the black rat snake. That would take gene sequencing, which hasn't been done. I do claim that the two mutants are at the same location (locus) in their respective genomes. That is based on a picture of an albino baby posted two or three years ago on the old hybrid forum here on kingsnake.com. And it was stated to be a corn x black rat snake hybrid. At the time, I posted that the breeder had proven that the two mutants had the same locus. I do not know whether it is still possible to seach the old forum for that post and don't have the time to try today.

FWIW, when I worked at the ISU genetics lab, my boss crossed an albino pigeon and an albino ringneck dove. Albino is recessive to normal in both species. He only got one baby, but it was an albino. Which proved that the albino mutants in those two species had the same location in their genomes.

Whatever albino mutant the bubblegum rat has, it does not have the same locus as the amelanistic mutant in the corn. IMHO, the quickest way to figure out whether the bubblegum's mutant is T-neg or T-pos is to run a tyrosinase test on it.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Paul Hollander

Well, the Bubblegum rat is a T-neg albino, and so is the Amel corn that it was bred to. All the eggs from the clutch hatched except two and all the offspring were normal colored. I'd like to see the photo of the Amel corn/Amel black rat baby. I wonder if it was an F2 hybrid?

As you can see from this photo the F1 generation of a T-neg obsoletus and T-neg guttata are normal colored offspring.

Chris

Here's the post I was talking about. Unfortunately, the picture is no longer there. But the text is worth reading.

Paul Hollander
snow corn x albino black rat snake cross

A completely UNscientific observation.....I think it's WAY cool that they have little skulls on their heads!!!! I'd want one just for that! Are you selling the little killers?