Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There is still a lot of debate about the benefits, or the dangers, of pelleted/dry diets for tortoises. There really should not be. All you have to do is look at what has happened with other animals, and also with humans, to find the truth.

I have studied animal and human nutrition extensively for the last 25 years or more. There really can be no doubt about processed foods. Processed foods are harmful to all living creatures. Period. Rabbits are probably one of the best-studied animals when it comes to pelleted foods. At one time right after rabbit pellets were invented, commercially-raised rabbits were given almost nothing besides pellets. After a few years, it became evident that the rabbits were getting all kind of digestive problems and many died. When fresh, whole vegetables were added into the diet, the problems were greatly reduced. Now, it is a well-known fact that it is very risky to raise rabbits on pellets alone, and the ratio of pellets should be relatively small. The same thing happened, and is still happening with cows. Cows are true grazing animals, and when they are eating grasses and weeds in pastures, they are remarkably healthy, but when they are brought into corrals to fatten up with dry feed and grain before slaughter, they often become very, very sick and most would die of disease if they weren't slaughtered first. They are stuffed full of antibiotics and other medications just to keep them alive long enough to reach the slaughterhouse. Same with pigs, sheep, whatever.

I have raised birds and have known MANY breeders of birds for a long time. Almost all of us have all come to the conclusion that pelleted diets are the cause of many diseases in all kinds of birds, especially fatty liver disease. The higher the proportion of pellets in the diet, the more problems are seen. Iguanas fed on commercial "iguana food" fare no better, as I have seen personally more than a few times.

How many people keep up on the latest human nutrition studies? I consider myself more knowledgable than most on this subject. I have read hundreds of studies and reports on human nutrition. Many disagree with each other. Some say low carb is the only way to go, some say high carb, low protein, high protein, vegetarian and all points in between. There is really only ONE thing they ALL agree on. Processed foods are harmful to the point of virtually qualifying as a toxin. All junk food is processed food, and vice-versa. A human's, or an animal's, body has evolved over millions of years to digest and process natural foods, whether it is vegetables, fruits, meats, grasses, nuts or whatever. Each animal is uniquely designed to digest particular foods that it has evolved eating. Anything else is treated by the animal's body as a toxin and can disrupt digestion terribly. Even man-made vitamins are mostly passed right through in the urine. A tortoise was simply not made to digest soy, or any kind of bean, legume or grain like the kinds found in processed, pelleted tortoise "foods."

Did you know that dogs and cats never get cancer or any of the other degenerative diseases that these pets get so commonly if they are fed exclusively raw meat? Dogs get cancer in this country about as often as humans do, if not more. Cats get feline leukemia and all other kinds of health problems. The sled dogs in Alaska or the North Pole do not get these diseases because they are fed raw meat, just like they are adapted to. It's the canned or packaged dog food, which is cooked, that often makes them sick.

If a person thinks pelleted foods like Mazuri are good for tortoises, then the only question that remains is....."why would tortoises be the ONE animal that is different from all the other animals on the planet?" Does anyone reading this have some proof as to why and how they are?

If you don't like the stuff don't use it but your argument against it is pretty ambiguous. My argument for the use of it is based on first hand experience.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Speaking of slow nights, you always seem to find the time to respond to my posts. Nothing better to do, Ed? I would think you are tired of me making you like like an moron by now.

If you think my evidence is "ambiguous," then I suggest you buy yourself a dictionary and find out what the word means.

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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You posted " Making you like like a moran". I am not one to cast stones about spelling or proper english, as I realy stick at both myself. But that just didn't look correct to me (Ha! Ha!)!
I still think you two should write an article for Reptiles or even a book.

You're right. You DO suck at grammar and spelling. I make the occasional mistake, but YOU really stink up the place. (Somebody open a window!) And I did spell "moron" correctly, despite your contention to the contrary.

As far as writing goes, I have written bird-related articles on breeding and proper feeding of various species in "Watchbird" magazine, and one or two other mags, but I have not done much writing about reptiles; just one article about keeping and breeding Emerald Swifts on a pet website. Most people do not know how to keep them properly, and even many reptile sites on the web are all wrong, so I submitted an article to give people the facts and they ended up posting it on their site. I'll see if I can find it a put up a link to it in the near future.

I just thought maybe you were from the valley. "So Like! Thats like! Really like cool! Like you know what Like i mean? Totally!!"
By the way I injoyed your staring roll in "Valley Girls". (For all you '80 movies buffs.

Tortoisehead wrote:
>>Cows are true grazing animals, and when they are eating >>grasses and weeds in pastures, they are remarkably healthy, >>but when they are brought into corrals to fatten up with dry >>feed and grain before slaughter, they often become very, very >>sick and most would die of disease if they weren't >>slaughtered first. They are stuffed full of antibiotics and >>other medications just to keep them alive long enough to >>reach the slaughterhouse. Same with pigs, sheep, whatever.

I completely agree with you regarding feeding Mazuri, or any other pelleted food, to tortoises. I am a great proponent of feeding them grasses and broadleaf weeds. The pelleted products lack long-stem fiber / effective fiber.

However, as a ruminant nutritionist, I must point out that your statements regarding cattle nutrition are grossly false. I have studied various classes of cattle (adult cows, calves, growing steers and heifers), as well as the different diets they consume (grazing pasture, hay, growing diets, and finishing diets). They are not "stuffed full of antibiotics and medications just to keep them alive long enough to reach the slaughterhouse." If an animal is sick, nearly all medications used have a "withdrawal time," and that animal cannot be slaughtered for human consumption within that specified time frame (usually the med is injected and withdrawal time is at least several days). The finishing diets usually contain roughage / fiber sources, often in the form of corn silage, haylage, hay, etc. And most animals do not become very very sick. How in the world would it be profitable to raise very sick animals and have to medicate them with expensive drugs??

griffin

bring common sense into this conversation.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I found many sites on the internet that supported what I said. "Stuffed full of antibiotics" may have been a slight exaggeration for dramatic effect, but from what I have read on the internet and in books like "Beyond Beef" and "Diet for a Small Planet," the use of antibiotics is ROUTINE in the cattle industry. There has been some improvement the last few years, but antibiotics are still given regularly, and for the reason I said. The animals tend to get sick on improper diet. The below article says that 75 percent on the cattle get diseased livers on the fattening diet. I would say that qualifies as most cattle beind sickly like I said they were.

Also, I saw very little mention of the "finishing diet" you said the ranchers use. They are now under pressure to use more roughage in the fattening diet, but it is not done routinely by any means. There are no laws against feeding the animals grain and dried cattle feed, and there are no laws against the use of antibiotics in the feed, even if added for no reason other than prevention.

Many sites I saw mentioned that the cattle industry also uses cattle feed that has chicken manure in it. One reason they do this is because chickens are fed antibiotics in large doses, and their manure has antibiotics in it. This way, the ranchers can give antibiotics to the cows and let the chicken growers pay for it.

http://cattlefeeder.ab.ca/herd/ahfs20010523.shtml

http://rx.magazine.tripod.com/bn_20010510elin013.htm

NOT. While it is interesting and does point out a possible flaw in the diet the article does bring to light another problem with special interest groups or people with an agenda. I believe the use of scare tactics is a major red flag that there is not much proof positive to support their argument. It's like resorting to name calling and personal insults when the frustration level reaches the point of where you don't know what else to say... so you say something stupid.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You FINALLY found a subject you are a true expert on! Way to go, big guy!

Yes, "stuffed full of antibiotics" is definately an exaggeration. One of the most typically used antibiotics used is tylosin, made by Elanco, and sold under the brand name Tylosin10 or Tylosin40. I would like to point out that these are fed at a rate of up to 10 grams of Tylosin40 per 2000 lbs. of feed. That calculates to 0.0011% of the diet being Tylosin40. Through research efforts, it has been shown that inclusion of roughage in finishing diets decreases the incidence of acidosis, which can lead to liver abcesses. It *is* common for feedlots to include roughage/fiber at 10 to 15% of the diet. Of course there are no laws against feeding grain and other concentrates; alot of cattle are fed grain and other concentrates, either as a part of their diet, or to supplement them while grazing pasture. Not to mention the fact that the feeding of antibiotics to cattle is highly regulated by the FDA.

Regarding chicken manure, I am quite familiar with feeding it. In fact, it was the subject of my master's thesis. It is commonly called broiler litter. And sorry to say, but it is not fed because beef producers want to use antibiotics in the manure. It is fed because it is inexpensive, and it provides a good source of protein, both non-protein nitrogen as well as bacterial protein. Broiler litter is also deep-stacked for a min. of 3 wks to allow the heat produced by the bacteria to kill any pathogens that may be present. The feeding of broiler litter is most common in the broiler producing states, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Virginia. Also, these southeastern states are not where the feedlots of the US are located.

I think you will be hard pressed to find objective information from the sources you mentioned. Your books mentioned are hardly without their own biases and ulterior motives.

griffin

I understand that the antibiotics are put in the cattle feed in small doses, but the point is, they are given routinely and unnecessarily in most cases which causes all kinds of problems down the line. And the main reason they are given is, like I said, because of horribly improper feeding of the cattle before slaughter. And I also am VERY skeptical that the majority of cattle ranchers are now using hay and other roughage in their "finishing" diets. The majority of the information I have read does not support that. Most ranchers have a history of complaining that it is too expensive and/or time consuming.

Chicken droppings are a "good" source of protein? Know any humans that eat this "good" protein? If not, why not? After all, we are eating it through the cow that eats it. They are what they eat, just like any other animal. And why are cows, a vegetarian animal, being fed so much protein? The main reason they are fed chicken crap is because the chicken farmers don't know what else to do with it and are eager to get rid of it, and the cattle ranchers don't really care what kind of garbage they feed their cattle as long as it's cheap and plentiful and makes the cattle grow fast and get really fat. Also, the fact remains that chicken manure does have antibiotics in it, and no amount of composting or "deep-stacking" is going to get them out. The cattle ranchers KNOW that and if you don't think that enters into the reasons they use it, then you are certainly free to believe it...I however, DON'T.

As far as the FDA "highly regulating" cattle ranchers, I hope you don't mind if I take that with a BIG grain of salt. They are notorious for being asleep at the wheel when it comes to the cattle industry, and cattle ranchers are notorious for promising to do one thing while doing the exact opposite. We have seen this continually from the beef and dairy industry. Funds and personnel that were already at a ridiculously low level that were supposed to go to insuring our meat and dairy is safe were cut even further in the 80s. And since you brought up the subjects of "ulterior motives" and "objective information," I think we have seen much more deceit and overt lying from the cattle industry than from the people who are on to them and their sickening ways. Look at the "mad cow" fiasco in Europe and countless E-coli and other bacterial outbreaks in this country. And that's not even mentioning the "super bugs" believed by many to be the result of antibiotics in cattle feed.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We have gotten away from my original point anyway. If I recall, you even agreed to a point, at least about tortoises. My point was that animals should only eat foods they are adapted to eat or else they tend to get sick over time. Tortoises are not adapted to eat soy beans or grain.

Tortoisehead wrote:
>>Chicken droppings are a "good" source of protein? Know any humans that eat this "good" protein? If not, why not?

Nope, there are no humans that eat broiler litter. Want to know why? Because they are not ruminants. Because cattle are ruminants, they are capable of using the non-protein nitrogen (NPN) and bacterial protein as a feedstuff perfectly well. Why? Because of their huge microbial population in their ruminoreticulum. These microbes are designed to and very capable of breaking down both true protein and NPN sources, and using the resulting ammonia, along with carbon skeletons from CHO, to make microbial protein. These microbes are then passed out of the stomach, and are digested by the host animal, and Voila! The ruminant has a nice supply of protein. In fact, most of the dietary protein entering the ruminant stomach does not escape microbial breakdown, and the majority of protein reaching the small intestine of ruminants is microbial protein. Broiler litter is usually fed in combination with corn, to provide readily available CHO to meet the carbon skeleton needs of the microbes. Broiler litter is also most commonly fed in the SE US, because that is where the majority of boiler houses are located. In the SE US, most cattle operations are either cow-calf or stocker operations; which means grazing animals. In this setting, broiler litter/corn is fed as a supplement. I'll also add that the cattle even *like* it, as I have seen numerous animals pick out and leave the corn, and eat the broiler litter. Have you seen broiler litter? It doesn't look like or smell like feces. It looks kinda like dirt, and smells like a combo of burnt coffee and burnt chocolate. As far as antibiotics goes, I wouldn't be surprised if they were damaged during the deep-stacking process, which results in temperatures reaching 150 F. And why would producers of grazing animals *want* to feed antibiotics?

Do you eat mushrooms? Do you know what they are grown on? Seems like humans are alot closer on the foodchain to eating feces with mushrooms than with cattle consuming broiler litter...

Tortoisehead wrote:
>>I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We have gotten away from my original point anyway. If I recall, you even agreed to a point, at least about tortoises.

Yes, T-head, I do agree with you regarding the diet of tortoises. I would not feed mine pellets. At least we can agree on tortoise diets

griffin

You never answered the most important question, Griffin. WHY would you want to feed such a high-protein, ANIMAL-based diet to a vegetarian animal? And could you really expect such a practice to not cause health problems? Which brings us back to my original point.

Why would the ranchers want to feed antibiotics to their charges, you ask? Because they believe, and there is evidence to support it, (although I know it is controversial,) that animals fed antibiotics grow faster. And certainly they believe that the cattle will get less liver problems and other diseases, thus preserving their profit margin somewhat. Why do the chicken farmers do it?

Tortoisehead wrote:
>>Cows are true grazing animals, and when they are eating >>grasses and weeds in pastures, they are remarkably healthy, >>but when they are brought into corrals to fatten up with dry >>feed and grain before slaughter, they often become very, very >>sick and most would die of disease if they weren't >>slaughtered first. They are stuffed full of antibiotics and >>other medications just to keep them alive long enough to >>reach the slaughterhouse. Same with pigs, sheep, whatever.

I completely agree with you regarding feeding Mazuri, or any other pelleted food, to tortoises. I am a great proponent of feeding them grasses and broadleaf weeds. The pelleted products lack long-stem fiber / effective fiber.

However, as a ruminant nutritionist, I must point out that your statements regarding cattle nutrition are grossly false. I have studied various classes of cattle (adult cows, calves, growing steers and heifers), as well as the different diets they consume (grazing pasture, hay, growing diets, and finishing diets). They are not "stuffed full of antibiotics and medications just to keep them alive long enough to reach the slaughterhouse." If an animal is sick, nearly all medications used have a "withdrawal time," and that animal cannot be slaughtered for human consumption within that specified time frame (usually the med is injected and withdrawal time is at least several days). The finishing diets usually contain roughage / fiber sources, often in the form of corn silage, haylage, hay, etc. And most animals do not become very very sick. How in the world would it be profitable to raise very sick animals and have to medicate them with expensive drugs??

griffin

Ed, why are you antagonizing tortoisehead? It seems every
time I come here, this is going on. Can't we all just
get along?

Linda

Wow you sound like Rodney K. I think it is great. We get all kinds of veiws out there and everyone can make up thier own minds. Even if they are wrong and don't try it!

I can't imagine anyone not being able to get along with my sweet, bubbly personality. Ed must be a REEEEEEAL head case.

ROFL.....I never come to this board but have been thinking about feeding my russians a commercial diet in the winter, since I don't have broad leaf plants to feed.

Anyway...I had to laugh over the statement "Did you know that dogs and cats never get cancer or any of the other degenerative diseases that these pets get so commonly if they are fed exclusively raw meat?". I have worked in the Veterinary field for over 20 years, I FEED a balanced raw diet to my cats and dogs and guess what, animals fed that way still can and DO get many diseases including cancer.

We raise cattle as well as many of the "livestock" you felt so knowledgable about. You really have no clue. Sorry, but why did you even waste time posting? I am going to assume you don't own...cats, dogs or cattle...DO you have a tortoise?

Nina

Oh yeah, sure. You "NEVER" come to this board, but yet here you are and you zero right in on my post just right out of the blue. And 20 years in the veterenarian field, huh? Doing what, cleaning the crap out of the animal cages? Holding the dog's penises as they are "fixed, maybe?" And of course you just happened to have raised all of the animals I mentioned and are an expert on them all. Right.

I will say one thing. You have something in common with those cattle. You both produce an awful lot of manure. Try again, dimwit.

I can see why you felt I jumped right to your post, but let me explain myself. First of all, yes, I own and/or raise all the animals I talked about and more actually. What I have learned through years of husbandry, is you can never assume anything about the care from one species to the next. Why did I come to this board? Because I am not hibernating my russians, they were just imported this year and due to our winter climate I am not able to provide them the live plants that they typically eat, so felt that using a commercial diet would be better balanced. I came here because I would prefer to hear from those who have experienced it, than read about it on sites wanting to sell me something. Even our herp doctor can only parrot what he has read, I wanted to hear from keepers. That is why I went straight to your post, it had the subject line containing the information that I needed to learn about.

What made no sense is that you, in your argument, used vague analogies that had no bearing on tortoise diets. Why is it not good? "Processed" does not equate "bad". First, do you know why the typical cat food is not good for cats? Because cats are obligate carnivores. Because most commercial foods are grain based and use rendered meat. It is not the processing at all, but the quality of ingredients as well as having the APPROPRIATE ingredients. Now, on to cattle, your argument there was also incorrect. First of all, a cow raised on grass AND grains will do wonderfully. Grassfed beef is NOT done for the betterment of the cattle! ROFL....it simply makes for a healthier dinner for US, once it is slaughtered.

No one knows everything about everything, so when I want to learn about something I DON"T know, I am sure not going to validate the opinion of someone that is speaking fallacies concerning things I DO know about.

Read your post, if you remove all the "stuff" you wrote, it boils down to "do not feed tortoise diet because it is processed". Anyone who likes to be able to make a judicious decision on the husbandry of their animals is not going to take that argument as informative. Where are your facts? How does the processing in tortoise diet effect the over all nutritional value? What processes are use that destroy needed nutrients? and what ARE those needed nutrients that are missing?

Improper ingredients, ingredients that are damaged by processing, actual examples of damage to animals fed this diet, are the things that make up a post that would sway an intelligent person to base their decision on your argument. THOSE are the things to put in a page long post about "why not to feed commercial".

That's it, nothing personal, just get tired of day in and day out dealing with people who think they "know" things based on the latest buzz words "processed" bad "natural" good.....I just needed some facts, that's all.

Nina

Oh, I see. So you came here looking for information on dry tortoise diets, yet asked not one question on that topic but instead went straight to my post, declared it totally wrong, then arrogantly (and ignorantly) declared yourself an expert on everything I mentioned, while offering not one tiny shred of proof that anything you said was fact. Your assertion you have all of the animals I mentioned and more is simply laughable. Got any proof? I think that pretty much sums it up. For someone who insists on facts, you offer precious few yourself. I believe you were directed here by someone on this board who I have had skirmishes with in the recent past (the timing was just TOO obvious) and he thought he would sic his "animal expert" friend on me. Wow. I stand thoroughly impressed. Yawn.

Your post was based on sheer ignorance because the facts you say were never brought up by me have in fact been discussed here ad nauseum, by me as well as others. You say you are a new poster here. Either you are a liar or a complete fool to do what you did without first seeing if you maybe know your ass from a hole in the ground concerning what I have or haven't provided. My guess is you are a little of both. If you do not hibernate your Russian tortoises, and do not know that feeding them a pelleted diet exclusively would be harmful, I cannot believe you know much of anything about animals, especially tortoises. If you believe that soy husks are a "balanced diet" for tortoises, your claims of expertise in animal nutrition are more than suspect. And yet you claim to be an expert.

You make many ignorant and meaningless statements. You say you can never assume anything from one species to the next? What does that mean? You can't assume a dog eats mostly meat? You can't assume a horse is a vegetarian and that cows do best with grass to graze on? How variable is the diet or environment of an green iguana in the wild? How many different environments would be appropriate for a desert tortoise? Tropical rain forest perhaps? There are many, many assumptions you not only CAN make, but BETTER make if you want to keep the animal alive. Do you know anything at all about any of these animals? I doubt it, despite your highly questionable insistence you are an expert on animal husbandry. I'm sure throwing around terms like "obligant carnivore" really impresses the girls down at the knitting club, but it really has nothing to do with what I said and also doesn't prove you know anything, does it? And you are wrong anyway. The reason cats don't thrive on canned cat food has more to do with the fact that the meat is cooked than is does with the fact that they contain cereals. Cats thrive on raw meat, especially if you include organ meats, which is what most carnivores eat first on a kill. Since cooking qualifies as "processing," my statement was correct. Look up cat and dog studies done with raw meat versus cooked meat on the internet. There have been MANY done and they all come to the conclusion that it is processing (cooking) that is the culpret, not the inclusion of plant matter. Dogs get sick on canned food also, and yet they are not "obligate carnivores." You didn't bother to address that, did you? If you knew HALF as much as you think you do, you might just not look so ridiculous.

Another meaningless statement: " A cow raised on grass AND grains will do wonderfully." Heh heh, that's like saying, "a person who eats a balanced diet and also junk food will do wonderfully." HOW MUCH grain/junk food? A handful of grain a day on an otherwise all grass diet will indeed cause no problems. How about a bucketfull of grain a day? Twenty pounds a day? It depends on the amount, just like a person who eats junk food. If you eat one twinky a week in addition to a healthful diet, you can probably still maintain good health. If you eat fifty a week, you are going to pay the price, health-wise. I have studied human nutrition intensively for over 25 years. There probably isn't anything you can tell me about it I don't know. The thing is, humans and animals have many similarities when it comes to nutrition. I don't mean they/we all eat the same thing. I meant all living things thrive on a diet they are adapted to eat and don't thrive otherwise. If you think "processed food" is just a buzzword, and processed foods are just as good for animals or humans, could you please provide a list of processed foods that are just as healthful as natural foods? And the proof to go along with it?

If you had actually wanted to learn something about tortoise diets, instead of engaging in cheap, childish attacks, you would have asked some of the people on this board who know a lot about the subject. There are literally thousands of sites on the internet that have all sorts of information on what to feed tortoises, and only a very tiny handful want to "sell you something." Again your words ring false. What do you think the information about tortoises or any other animal is on the net? It is the opinions of those who have kept the animals. Duh. What makes you think the people on this board would somehow be different? There are those who know what they are talking about through years of experience, like me and quite a few others, and there are those like Ed Pirog who just want to, as you say, "sell you something."

I could go on an tear just about everything you said apart, but I really have already spent enough time with your silliness. Again, please provide a list of processed (man-made) foods that have proven to be just as healthful as an exclusive diet, or a large part of the diet, as natural foods.

np

Oh well, don't worry about it. No one really expected you to be able to back up your silly boasting with any facts.

I would say this post is from Ed in drag.

Hey Mike, You're developing a very good reputation as a head case. Also, can you tell me what drugs you are doing? I could use some of that.
Seriously... You actually make me feel good. You are obviously many more times stressed out than I am. That's cool.
(your buddy)
Ed
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

That's what I like about this forum, it's just like a soap opera. You can leave for a year and when you come back the same old inane arguments are still going on. This is most entertaining.
I read it on the enternet it must be true!LOL

But yet you waste your valuable (snicker snicker) time reading and then responding to the "inanity." Maybe it's time to look into a hobby.

My My arn't we the testy one, you poor thing LOL!

Not testy. Just tired of intellectually stunted people like yourself who have nothing more meaningful to say than, "you're wrong because I said so!"

I see nothing meaningful or factual in what you've said. You come on here and rant expecting everyone to see things your way. You provide no scientific evidence to back up your claims, only the propaganda of organizations that have a personal axe to grind. As for intellectually stunted, that may be, but I'm not going to bow down at your throne of supposed intellectual superiority.