Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just added two collareds to my collection. These little ones are rescues from a local pet store. They're very skinny at the moment, but I hope to get them in good shape. Both seem to be adjusting well and had their first meal earlier today.

This one is showing a lot of orange. I would say she's about 9 months old. She currently weighs 20 grams.

This is the smallest of the two, maybe 5 or 6 months old. She currently weighs 12 grams!

weight, the top female looks like she just laid, and is emaciated, I wish ya lots of luck with the new girls, I know you will do a great job, you have a good heart. Eve

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Oh that makes me want to cry. They are sooo skinny! My little 2 1/2 month old boy is 20 grams. Fatten them up!

...its always a tough call, whether to give one of these clueless pet retailers dips a *sale* and save the lizards from a slow death by incompetence, or whether to just give them HELL for being such IDIOTS. I can't believe they could watch a collared's condition run down that far and not figure out something might be just a tad *subnominal* in terms of care. Tough one, but I don't think I could have walked on by this pair either. Way to go KEV, and good luck to you and the new girls!

DC

Absolutely. The store had a whole cage of collareds. Maybe 40 in total of various ages and sizes. A number of them looked to be in decent shape (there was a huge male that looked like Eve's Kong). But the majority were very slim. These two were the best of the slim ones. There were a couple that were well past the point of recovery as far as I was concerned. They were encountering more issues then just a lack of weight (bad eyes, brokens limbs, various growths).

It's a tough call, but I couldn't resist as I needed a new collared lizard challenge as my bluestars continue not to breed.

I'll keep everyone updated.

>>I just added two collareds to my collection. These little ones are rescues from a local pet store.

Let me rephrase my concerns with a previous post about rescues:

You may be winning a battle but losing a war. Again, if you're paying full price for a lizard in such poor condition, you're sending the message to the pet store that they need not care how badly they treat their animals--they'll still sell like hotcakes. You may be able to sleep at night feeling good about yourself because one or two of the lizards will have a better life, but the pet store can promptly replace them, and sell them by the dozen to less scrupulous people.

I'm also assuming these lizards are wild-caught. I own all wild-caught animals myself (caught by me or friends, not purchased). I met a gentleman two years ago that catches collared lizards for the pet trade. He claims to catch up to 100 collared lizards A DAY when conditions are right. He wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't such a high demand for wild-caught collared lizards, but apparently there is.

People like PeTA eat this kind of stuff up--walking into pet stores to see tanks full of emaciated reptiles. They use it as substantiation for reducing/eliminating the reptile trade. Those of us who buy such animals, thus sustaining the demand for them, are fueling the fire. If we were to refuse to purchase animals in such poor condition, painful as it may seem to "ignore the suffering" of individual animals, the demand would diminish, and commercial collectors would no longer profit from taking large quantities of reptiles like collared lizards from the wild. Ultimately, wild populations would be far better off (until a housing development is built ), and as someone concerned for the well-being of reptiles on a larger scale than merely my captives, I think that's more important than my "rescuing" of a single lizard with which I make eye contact in a pet store.

I would much rather support the efforts of a private breeder such as those who frequent this forum, who actually give a @#$% about their animals, than someone who doesn't care about motive for purchasing ("rescue," impulse buy, their kids threw a tantrum if they didn't have it, whatever) as long as they make a sale. I understand that not all pet stores are like this, but it's pretty easy to discern the ones that are and not give them your business.

Sorry about the cold, utilitarian tone of this reply, but again, my concern lies more with the decline in quality of life for the animals we DON'T "rescue."
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

in this case. Not all of us have the luxery of going out and collecting our own animals. Being a Canadian he has a hard time getting these lizards and I know for a fact he checked with Will and others on this forum about getting CB animals but non could export them. He even thought about having Will ship them to me since I am close to the border but he was afraid to break the law. He really did make an effort. I agree though you should not ge these animals just to save them. Tom Greb

Thanks Tom.

I did indeed try to find local breeders (in Toronto) and also import from the U.S. with absolutely no luck. John even offer to send me up some collareds for free (just pay shipping costs), but the difficulties getting them over the border was a huge barrier. Many local pet shops wouldn't help me with the importation. Those that said they would help were going to charge me a lot of money.

That being said - I have always said I would not purchase wild caught lizards. But unfortunately I really have no other choice. I'm hoping I can gather up enough of a collection so that I can become THE local breeder and hopefully supply reptile lovers in Toronto with healthy captive bred collareds.

I chose these two particular lizards because they were in bad shape, but looked fully recoverable. They did have some very healthy specimens available. However, seeing as I'm somewhat experienced with collareds, and reptiles in general, I thought I would concentrate on lizards that needed more attention. If someone goes into the pet store and buys the healthier looking ones then great - I'm sure they will be cared for and live a long time. But I was concerned that someone without experience would purchase the weaker specimens and they would die. Why not help save some of them, even if it means 'supporting' the importation of unhealthly specimens? Like you said, it's a war, and winning one battle does not win the war – but the war is going to continue if I purchased these lizards or not.

Lastly, of course I didn't pay the asking price for these specimens. I told the store I was doing them a favour as they wouldn't sell them anyways and paid very little for them (although it's unfortunate I had to pay anything).

I agree that it's unfortunate pet stores continue to sell all sorts of reptiles that are snatched from the wild. Unless some strict laws are put in place, it's going to continue.

in your area to buy from you. Problem is, you pretty much have to sell your lizards at wholesale wc prices to even convince some of those toads to buy the nicer captive bred lizards. When you consider the cost of lighting, vitamins, etc. the profit of captive breeding collareds pretty much in non-existant.

A friend of mine actually did a study, where he averaged cost of lighting/electricity/ feeding, of hatchling to sellable lizards. I believe he was coming out about even by selling lizards for $40 each. Compare this to collectors who often sell them for lost of 20 for 7-10 dollars each...ouch. Pretty hard to compete with.

Do it because you love it, and that's all you do. Sometimes you meet someone you feel worthy, and you know they definately deserve some nice lizards to work with. It becomes more about doing things that make you happy. Sure I like to sell a few lizards, but I often find myself giving away lizards too.

John Eddington

I'm definitely not in this for the money. I love these little guys, and that's why I was only tempted for a short time to switch to Beardies (since they're so readily available everywhere).

I would prefer to sell direct to the public and not deal with any stores at all. And when I mean sell, I mean specifically to recoup 'most' of my costs to raise the little ones. I just want to be able to hopefully offset some of the WC purchases that occur here in Toronto.

There's one other thing I'd like to do, and that's find others that want to breed collareds in the Toronto area. For these people I would provide them with offspring for free to start up breeding colonies.

Not all of us have the luxery of going out and collecting our own animals.

It's not necessarily cheaper to do so--ask any of the multitudes who look for grey-banded kingsnakes year after year--the hunting license, plane tickets (in some cases), car rental (in some cases), gas, hotels, dining, etc. add up to much more than if one were to purchase a captive-bred specimen. My hunting/fishing license alone costs $49 annually (and I haven't even SEEN a wild collared here in Texas!). People who collect their own often don't collect as much as you'd think. I went to Val Verde County this past weekend and saw only one snake, which was not collected. Sometimes the pursuit is what's fun, not necessarily finding your quarry.

Realistically speaking, I agree with Kevin's remarks that one person alone can't make a difference in curtailing the mass collection of wild collareds. However, I choose the optimistic path and still make the argument that there is power in numbers, and if enough of us "vote with our dollars" by NOT buying wild-caught collareds, and by educating the public prospective herp buyers both here and locally, you'll see fewer and fewer of those lizards in need of "rescue."

I'm happy to see that people haven't jumped all over me with my reply--I tried to make it come across as calm and rational as possible, and I appreciate the like-mannered responses received so far.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I usually go out to AZ and CA every year from Mi to just view chuckwallas in their natural habitat. I purchase licenses in CA and AZ, Non needed in NV and have brought home maybe 6 lizards in 7 years. It is funny I have seen fewer collareds than any other lizard in the southwest. Tom