Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse here, but here's the question.

Assuming a beginning budget of $3000 (for animals only, not expenses), would ball pythons offer me (somewhat experienced keeper, inexperienced breeder) the best chance for success in both my attempt at breeding and the opportunity of financial recovery? Would the larger clutch sizes of, say, boas allow for the recovery of my initial investment?

If yes, which morph(s) would you recommend as an immediate focus? (Keeping in mind the need to purchase animals at or near breeding size). Pastel? Albino? Het-Pieds? Ghosts? Something else?

If not, would you recommend for me another species or two as an alternative? I lean toward Woma pythons, but do not have any experience keeping them.

My small collection currently consists of:
1.0 Normal BP (Adult 2yrs.)
0.1 Dumeril's Boa (Juvenille 2yrs.)

I thank you in advance for any reply when you have the time!

Jeremy

snakekeeping only hoping to recoupe their investment they are in this for the wrong reason. Joy of the hobby and love of the animals is generally what drives most of us.
Otherwise you could put that 3K on the stock market and loose it that way.No animals are harmed in this manor.
Not everyone that buys snakes turns into breeders. Some never will.
So answer your own question. Do you enjoy the animals enough to purchase them at the going rate? And can you spend your life with their 30 plus year life span if they turn out to be sterile or gay? Or if they just never successfully procreate?
Check your motives and answer your own question.
Another piece of information, because of the inexpensive cost of female breeding normals bred to the realitively inexpensive pastel jungle almost everyone has one. Most are rated and few hold any grande characteristics after about 1200 grams.Albino however, grow into big beautiful snakes.Spend your money wisely and for what you are interested in. Perhaps Martha Stewart can give you some tips on the stock market.
Sizzel

Thank you for the info on Pastel vs. Albino. Those are the most obvious of choices if I were to breed ball pythons. I know I could get a Pastel and maybe a big female or 2, or get a big pair of Albino Hets and maybe another female. What about Piebald hets? Do you have experience breeding snakes other than ball pythons?

My plan is to start with around $3,000, give or take. I'm thinking Pastel male, 100% Het Axanthic and Albino females. Breed, sell, buy an Albino male. You can also breed you first generation Pastels back to the father for Supers and you should be able to regain all of your startup costs. This is, of course, assuming perfect breeding turn around. And you've also got the foundation for both Albino and Snow. I also want to work with one of the Ghosts and few other morphs.

Why would you in-breed the Pastels? I think we have enough Pastels around that to breed one back to his father would be ridiculous. Am I wrong with this? I would not do that.
Tom Baker

I wouldn't, but some people would. My plan actually includes all four animals coming from different lines. So the first two clutchs are only half siblings and so on. I'm hoping to have a wide genetic range in my program. I'd even like to avoid linebreeding for a few generations.

It would definitely be worthwile. If you do it right, and buy your snakes from the right people, their is no reason why you cannot recoup your investment in the first breeding season. Start out with housing.. You can get a 6 drawer rack from Boaphile or Animal Plastics for probably around $350 with a cheap thermostat. You then purchase a 2003 Pastel male for anywhere up to $2000 depending on size and color, maybe alot less. Then purchase 5 normal females for maybe $500 (only captive bred). Seems high, but you really want the best girls you can get, nice, fat and healthy, hopefully over 600 grams. That leaves you with $150 for water bowls, aspen, hides, and a hovabator. If all goes well, next breeding season assume that only half the females put on the weight needed to successfully produce eggs (probably more). Lets do a low ball guess of 6 eggs each. Only 3 females producing, thats 18 eggs, 9 of which should be Pastels. Just for fun lets say you only got 6 Pastels, they were all males (females worth about double) and very average looking Pastels. You couldn't sell tham and had to dump them for $500 (probably not)each. Then maybe $25 for each normal. You still made back your investment, with a couple hundred profit from the normals. Next breeding season, you will have much heavier females, more eggs, and it will all be profit. This was a very low ball guestimate, and besides fire, sickness, or a non-sperm producing male, was just to show how easy you can regain your investment. I believe their is an add in the classifieds of someone selling a Pastel male with 5 normal females, group rate, right now....
As far as people telling you that you are in it for the wrong reasons... They really just don't know how to answer a question, and want to throw their beliefs into any topic now matter how irrelevant. From your question, I could not tell how you treat your animals or what you were in it for. I would assume that since you are on this forum, that you love Ball Pythons and want to learn about them, and if possible invest in them. You are asking qustions the same way you would as if you were going to invest in the stock market. Don't listen to the ignorant rantings and just gather as much info you can from people who have done it.
Thanks, Tom Baker

Thank you for the advice and especially for the encouragement! If I do decide to stick with balls, I think the method you described with Pastels is most likely my best bet. I am also still considering working with Albinos simply because I like the look. I could get a breeding pair of hets and create maybe one albino and some 66% hets right? I'm not sure if I could really sell poss hets for more than a normal though, and if I produced an albino, I know that I'd just keep it...

Thanks again!

Jeremy

I personally believe albinos to be the stronger project as pastels represent a codominant trait = can be produced faster = market for these saturated more quickly. Also, I find a good contrasting albino to be spectacularly attractive. Also, the prices are dropping on these and it makes sense to go with the one that more people (on average) find to be more attractive. Once these animals enter the pet trade (and they will eventually) it is the more attractive animals that will be in more demand.

Albinos can be purchased right now for significantly less than the listed price by professional breeders (but you have to really hunt them down). Quite a few small scale operations are working with albinos and they must undercut the market in order to compete. You could purchase a pair of albino balls for $3500 or even an albino male and 2 het females for $3000. For albinos, I HIGHLY recommend that you NOT produce any "possible" hets, and that you produce as few hets as possible. There are MANY times the number of hets and possible hets out there than actual albinos and it's more difficult for a small scale breeder to move hets as everyone's concerned about getting ripped off by an unknown party. I say get an albino pair and keep all of the first generation females that you produce. Sell the males and acquire an additional male from unrelated stock (if you're leary about inbreeding- although inbreeding is not necessarily INHERENTLY bad).

If you go with het albinos you will regret it later once you discover the actual difficulty in moving possible hets and (to a lesser degree) 100% hets.

"It would definitely be worthwile. If you do it right, and buy your snakes from the right people, their is no reason why you cannot recoup your investment in the first breeding season."

This is going to seem really sarcastic, but there is a serious question within. You recommend that a person entering this market by purchasing animals from the "right" people. Who are the "right" people and what makes them "right"? If this person to whom you are offering this advice is not part of the "right" people himself, then you indirectly recommend others to not purchase animals from this person. How will he ever be successful in this endeavor?

"The right people" would be anyone that has a good record and has references that can be verified. He can ask a question in this forum or their is a website setup strictly to check on the records of people in the reptile community. Their are plenty of people that might want to sell fake hets, or try and take him in some way. I personally would avoid anyone that has WC adults or large number of CH, not because they are untrustworthy, but because I would prefer to only buy captive bred, and wouldn't want toworry rather all was treated correctly or wether it was a good or bad year for captive hatched. Their are also a number of the larger breeders that have very good reputations and their is even a list of them that sponsor this forum.
Tom Baker

I read this again and noticed a seeming contradiction. You emphasize buying animals from the "right" people. If buying from the "right" people is so important, then how will the person to whom you are giving advice ever be successful in this endeavor? Once he produces animals himself, he will never be able to sell them (he's not one of the "right" people!).

I know this seems cheeky, but don't you think it's a good point?

Instead, make a more modest investment by buying a couple of dozen CH female balls this year and building a bunch of racks for them. Get them treated for parasites and feed them as much and as often as they will eat. To me, the breeding aspect is not as difficult as learning the organization and skills of keeping a quantity of snakes rather then one or two for pets. Raise these girls up for a year. At the end of that time, if you feel that raising quantities of snakes is not for you, you can still sell your now well established yearling girls for a nice tidy profit. Otherwise now a year later, you may be able to buy both a male albino and a male pastel. Since your girls have been headstarted by a year, a few of your females should reach breeding size about the same time that the males do. If all goes well, you should make your investment back in the first year of production.

Mark

That is some very good advice! Thanks for your input. I may end up doing just that, though I would still probably opt to pay a few extra bucks for maybe yearling CB females instead of CH. I could save my money for a year and pic up a male Pastel, male Albino and a female Het Albino for the '05 breeding season. That does make solid business sense. It's difficult to resist the urge to start breeding this year though, because my plan last year was to save enough to buy a breeding group this year. I won't make a hasty decision, but it is so tempting to just go get a male Pastel and a couple females. Thanks for your advice!

Jeremy

Remember, the females usually need more time to grow than the males. I say get some normal females started now, at the very least.

Don't support the wild trade in Ball Pythons and buy some captive-bred directly from the breeder. I don't think any reasonable person would suggest buying wild caught over captive bred. At least I hope they wouldn't.
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Sure, IF you can find captive bred and born ball pythons in a price range that is acceptable to you, then go with them. But if not, I see nothing wrong with buying some captive hatched females and getting them established on your own. I've never seen a lick of evidence supporting the idea that harvesting the eggs and young of ball pythons is in any way detrimental to the well being of the species as a whole. If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.

Mark

>>Don't support the wild trade in Ball Pythons and buy some captive-bred directly from the breeder. I don't think any reasonable person would suggest buying wild caught over captive bred. At least I hope they wouldn't.
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