Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Perhaps you've seen the pics of crates opened at a port of entry (airport, harbor, etc) containing numerous turtles/tortoises literally stacked on top of each other. While the shipment was intended to be "live," many of the turtles die en route. Same happens for countless other herps.

Commercial (subsistence, in some countries) collectors therefore must overcollect to account for casualties experienced along the way from collector to end-purchaser.

How 'bout this: require an escort for any shipment of (herp X) greater than (X amount) specimens. What would this accomplish?

1. Eliminates crateloads of herps packed willy-nilly with questionable survival rates.

2. A human courier accompanying the animals could help to ensure they don't get mishandled along the way (missed flights and subsequent storage in suboptimal conditions, for example).

3. It would COST MORE for the importer to do this...for the compensation for the courier (airfare, lodging, meals, etc) and the shipping costs for the animals themselves (costlier to ship separate boxes of 5 animals each, for example, than a crate of 100). A higher per-shipment cost might induce the importer to ensure the animals actually SURVIVE the journey. Also, if it turned out to be unprofitable for the importer to receive shipments of Animal X, just maybe they wouldn't bother importing them after all (except dedicated breeders who collect their own specimens and serve as their own couriers).

More animals surviving = less required to be captured in the first place, more available on the receiving end for breeding etc. as well.

Thoughts? (other than "I'm increasing the incentive for poaching/smuggling" )
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

"Perhaps you've seen the pics of crates opened at a port of entry (airport, harbor, etc) containing numerous turtles/tortoises literally stacked on top of each other. While the shipment was intended to be "live," many of the turtles die en route. Same happens for countless other herps. " Chris McMartin

Photos like these are propaganda used by groups such as peta and other nuts to help skew the facts to fit their own agenda. These groups love to show worst case examples and present them as the norm as well as flat out lie. The truth is most exporters do what they have to to insure the safe arrival of their animals to their chosen destination.The last thing exporters want is for their animals to arrive dead. The number of doas is in fact Very low. Guidelines are set for how reptiles can be shipped and the boxes are inspected to see if these requirements are met. If not met the importer pays the price.No legitimate importer/exporter tolerates unsafe shipping methods. Below are the guidelines that must be followed for shipping turtles as an example. Ernie Eison

Specification for Reptiles Group 3 (Testudines)

Sec. 14.201 Design and construction.

(a) Materials. The shipper shall only use high density water-
resistant fiberboard, water-resistant hardboard, plywood of a minimum 3
ply, and/or rigid plastics in the construction of the primary
enclosure. The shipper shall not construct primary enclosures out of
corrugated cardboard, corrugated board, or other materials likely to
become damaged during transit.
(b) Principles of design. The shipper shall meet the following
principles of design in constructing the primary enclosure in addition
to the requirements outlined in Sec. 14.106.
(1) The shipper shall use sturdy fiberboard, hardboard, plywood or
rigid plastic boxes with adequate ventilation openings on the sides and
top cover, or baskets with an impervious inner tray as the primary
enclosures. The shipper shall securely fasten fine wire mesh outside
the primary enclosures to screen the ventilation openings which shall
be of a minimum of 1 cm (0.5 in) in diameter.
(2) The primary enclosure shall be shallow so that animals are
unable to clamber on top of one another. The shipper may place padding
in the form of crumpled newspaper, foam rubber, or Styrofoam peanuts
around the animals to prevent shifting and injury from excessive
movement. When the animals are less than 10 cm (4 in) in carapace
length, the shipper shall permit no more than ten (10) individuals per
primary enclosure in order to prevent excessive stacking of the
animals.
(3) For the large animals of greater than 10 cm (4 in) in carapace
length, the shipper shall place no more than 5 individuals in the
primary enclosure.
(4) Certain species are aggressive, and the shipper shall
individually pack them (e.g., snapping turtles of the family
Chelydridae, mud and musk turtles of the family Kinosternidae, big-
headed turtles of the family Platysternidae, and all soft-shelled
turtles of the family Trionychidae).

Sec. 14.202 Preparations before dispatch.

(a) Where necessary, the shipper shall place non-organic or other
suitable material in the box.
(b) The shipper shall pack terrapins and aquatic turtles in damp,
not wet, soft, absorbent bedding of crumpled newspaper, foam rubber, or
other suitable sterilized and non-organic material to minimize injury.

Sec. 14.203 General care and loading.

(a) In cases of more than one animal per shipment, the shipper
shall not mix or combine species with other species in a single primary
enclosure.
(b) The shipper and the carrier shall take special care to avoid
exposure to extreme temperatures. Particularly during cold weather,
these animals lie dormant for prolonged periods and, therefore, neither
the shipper nor the carrier shall presume them to be dead.
(1) On no account shall either the shipper or the carrier induce
unnatural hibernation loading the consignments in thermally controlled
containers.
(2) In extreme temperatures, the shipper shall place the primary
enclosure inside a ventilated polystyrene container which permits air
to circulate around the primary enclosures.

Below are the guidelines that must be followed for shipping turtles as an example.

Good info--is that from CITES or a domestic reg?
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Those are regulations that have been set in accordance with cites, International Air Transport
Association (IATA) , amendments of the Lacey Act, which
requires the healthful and humane transport of all animals and the
promulgation of regulations necessary and in the US have been modified to provide Fish and Wildlife Law Enforcement Division with the authority to cite shippers for failure to comply with specific regulatory requirements even where, by chance, high mortality has not resulted. Ernie Eison

Interesting, considering I just this month heard a wholesaler/importer say that he expects to loose between 10% and 80% of his imported ball pythons, depending upon whether it is "early" in the season (10-15% loss) or "late" in the season (60-80% loss). He seemed to think this was the norm. Whether this is due to improper packing or the health of the animals upon export seems to be irrelevant, as the result is still a large ecological loss and a rather inhumane trade.

Katrina

Posted by: Ernie Eison at Mon Feb 16 10:25:19 2004
"Perhaps you've seen the pics of crates opened at a port of entry (airport, harbor, etc) containing numerous turtles/tortoises literally stacked on top of each other. While the shipment was intended to be "live," many of the turtles die en route. Same happens for countless other herps. " Chris McMartin

Photos like these are propaganda used by groups such as peta and other nuts to help skew the facts to fit their own agenda. These groups love to show worst case examples and present them as the norm as well as flat out lie. The truth is most exporters do what they have to to insure the safe arrival of their animals to their chosen destination. The last thing exporters want is for their animals to arrive dead. The number of doas is in fact Very low.... Ernie Eison

-

Interesting considering that you just "heard " this that you would accept it as fact. Obvious bias at work. When you say "ecological loss and a rather inhumane trade" it `s unclear just what you mean assuming it `s in reference to the depletion of ball pythons in the wild the facts are to the contrary. Ball python populations in the countries that export the highest numbers have actually risen. This due to deforestation for farmland. Farmland reduces natural predators while increasing food sources (rats).It`s perfect for the pythons. Under these conditions they thrive.The numbers bear this out.Ball python populations are watched carefully in places such Ghana,Benin and Togo because of the great economic impact they have.The snakes are a valuable resource and the people know it. As for the rest .Lets for argument's sake assume the importer who made this statement is right since this is the angle people such as yourself like play .When talking about percentages of animals that die and talking about the import business as being a rather inhumane trade based on these numbers then the same can be said about captive breeding. After all what about the breeders that mass produce leopard geckos, turtles, colubrids,chameleons. What percentage of these animals survive to live a normal life span? Millions of turtles are hatched every year here in the states and sold in the pet trade far more then the numbers of all other reptiles imported combined. Hundreds of thousands of leopard geckos. Most of these animals end up dead.It`s safe to say 60 to 80 % . Far more captive produced animals die every year then Wc imports. Fact. If the cause of death is irrelevant in one facet of the trade then it`s irrelevant in all areas. Why draw any lines of division. Even small breeders who loving produce just a few animals are part of it. How? Because the small numbers of animals being produced by these individuals are being introduced into an already saturated market. Go to any show and you `ll see hobbyist breeders with tables full of unwanted animals. Sure these people will talk about how they breed reptiles because they love the animals and in the same breath they will talk about how bad the market and complain about poor sales. These people aren't trying to give anything away they want to make a buck off their animals as much as anyone else in the animal trade. But lets say we live in a perfect world where all breeders carefully select to who they sell their animals to it still doesn't matter that `s one more leopard gecko, turtle, whatever that's produced by another breeder that will end up dead.The supply out weighs the demand. If you can `t sell them why produce them? Unlike the the exportation of ball pythons that has an important and genuine economic relevance to the survival of the people that live in the countries of export them. On the other hand it can easily be said that the mass over production of animals and subsequent introduction of animals that are knowingly directed into an already saturated market by private breeders is nothing more then greed driven. If the import aspect of the reptile industry based on alleged survival rate is inhumane of then so is the captive breeding end of it. To draw lines of division and not acknowledge the whole issue is nothing but hypocritical. Ernie Eison

So you're saying that the market is saturated? What would you do to help this situation?

And just what would a person "such as myself" be?

Katrina

" So you're saying that the market is saturated? What would you do to help this situation? " K

That's the million dollar question. I mean are people supposed to stop breeding their animals because somebody else is producing lots of them ? How about importers should they give up the businesses they spent their lives building to accommodate the wishes of the nameless "Big Brother " manure peddlers of the world or because the breeders who reaped the benifits of their work feel their no longer needed? Private breeders come up with some truly spectacular stuff that breaths new life into the industry and also ground breaking things in terms of husbandry but they are so quick to speak out against the importers the guys who have been their source and are the ones who broke ground on many new species and color variants the ones who provided the breeders with the opportunities to work with the animals in the first place and continue to do so.Breeders do love to bite the hand that feeds them .And it`s not just the breeders who have benefited from the exporters.It`s science as well .When scientist do field studies, population research, DNA testing,etc. in other countries often times the main people they turn to for help are exporters, animal dealers and their collectors after all these are the guys that are the real experts when it comes to the native wildlife of their respective countries .They know more then anybody about the true status of the environment around them and what has changed.Without the importers where would the breeders and the reptile trade as a whole be today? While many breeders talk about habitat destruction,over collection ,how much they love their animals The bottom line is it`s the fear of competition for sales that imported reptiles represents to them that bothers them as much as anything else who`s kidding who? I believe it`s much closer to the truth that the exporters, trappers and people who feed their families thru the use of the land as a resource are the ones that have the largest and most genuine concerns about the environment and not private breeders. These people are the real environmental conservationist in the pet trade equation the ones who`s lives depend on the live animal trade in places that offer no other opportunities. To them the savannas and rainforst aren`t just something they see on the Discovery channel while they eat pizza in their living room.These are the people who really have the worries when it comes to over collecting ,habitat destruction, etc as opposed to say the guy works all week breeds stuff in his spare time and sells it at the local herp show then sits and complains about how the HOBBY is being ruined by others for HIM ! As for professional breeders people who make their living from reptiles what are they supposed to do lighten their production and cut into the revenue they make their living from to compensate for the animals produced by the guys that are doing it for fun ? And now back to the hobbyist why shouldn't he breed and sell to make a few bucks so his hobby pays for itself maybe he can afford that new morph next year .Even if he dosen`t really need the money his right to try and grab a piece of the pie is as valid as the next guys.Isn`t it? It`s the ultimate catch 22. But once again all things tie together.Personal bias and judgmental views of any aspect of the industry will not help correct the problems or protect it as a whole.A larger more objective scope is needed. It`s impossible look at an entire segment of the industry and say this group is wrong for doing what they do or this group is right.I feel things need to reviewed on an individual basis.There's a lot of room for improvement thru out but talking about shutting down any single area as a solution is not only “naive” but also selfish. Ultimately the agencies that write the laws that strangle off one area of the industry will move on to the next everyone with a true interest at every level will suffer. Those that keep reptiles and talk about how they want to see reptile importation shut down had better be careful what they wish for because thier also going to be on the menu. There is no one answer fits all solution to any facet of the animal trade .Both professional breeders and importers and I use the word professional people that do reptiles for a living are groups of people that have dedicated their lives to the animals they have chosen to work with. They put it all out for what they do As easy as it is to a draw a dividing line between the two importers/ breeders it`s also easy to draw parallel `s .All of us who are involved with reptiles are on the same team and that should never be forgotten.

Ernie Eison

“…nameless "Big Brother " manure peddlers of the world…”
Sticks and stones, as I said, if you don’t like the message, fine, but resorting to personal attacks only makes you an extremist. Let’s stick to the discussion shall we?
“And it`s not just the breeders who have benefited from the exporters.It`s science as well .When scientist do field studies, population research, DNA testing,etc. in other countries often times the main people they turn to for help are exporters, animal dealers and their collectors after all these are the guys that are the real experts when it comes to the native wildlife of their respective countries .”
Some scientists and some exporters, maybe, but most of the scientists I work with, and myself included, know a whole lot more about the animals and their environment than the majority of animal exporters that drive into a small town in the middle of nowhere and hold up a dollar bill in one hand and a photograph of the herp he wants in the other hand for all the children in the village to see. The exporter then has an army of children, who often do know more about where the herps are than the scientists do, and this army is collecting animals for pennies on the dollar to the benefit of the exporter. Exporters are not all noble people and not all scientists are idiots that get lost in their own backyard. The truth is some where in between. But the people I feel sorry for are the kids that did all the work and got paid next to nothing by the exporter who made all the profit, and in a couple of years when all the herps are sold to the exporters the kids will starve because they will no longer have anything to sustain themselves.
“I believe it`s much closer to the truth that the exporters, trappers and people who feed their families thru the use of the land as a resource are the ones that have the largest and most genuine concerns about the environment and not private breeders. These people are the real environmental conservationist in the pet trade equation the ones who`s lives depend on the live animal trade in places that offer no other opportunities. To them the savannas and rainforest aren’t just something they see on the Discovery channel while they eat pizza in their living room.”
Yep, these are the people who are just trying to survive by destroying their environment around themselves because the only way they can make money is by the shortsighted selling of their natural heritage. What are these people going to do in ten or twenty years when the rainforests in their back yard and all the animals that use to live there reside in a cage here in the US? I think a better approach is to look for solutions to the economic problems in “third world” countries now while there is still some environment left to protect rather than wait twenty years to burry all the dead children on a lunar landscape.
“ And now back to the hobbyist why shouldn't he breed and sell to make a few bucks so his hobby pays for itself maybe he can afford that new morph next year .Even if he doesn’t really need the money his right to try and grab a piece of the pie is as valid as the next guys.Isn`t it?”
I’m curious, what gives any one the “Right” to take something from the environment? Is the Earth here just to serve the needs of individuals, or is it here to serve the needs of all the people not just those who grab their piece of the pie first? What about the needs of wildlife and the herps you state you want to protect? Does wildlife have any value beyond monetary? Does it serve any purpose other than food for people or as pets? I know, let’s all divide up all the species on the planet equally so we no longer have to worry about protecting the environment, as a whole because we will each be individually responsible for our own little piece of the pie. You’re right on track here with the best way to provide for the future survival of all mankind, and nothing else matters.
“Personal bias and judgmental views of any aspect of the industry will not help correct the problems or protect it as a whole.A larger more objective scope is needed. It`s impossible look at an entire segment of the industry and say this group is wrong for doing what they do or this group is right.I feel things need to reviewed on an individual basis.There's a lot of room for improvement thru out but talking about shutting down any single area as a solution is not only “naive” but also selfish.”
Again, I am curious how it is selfish to want to protect the environment for everyone’s benefit, but it is not selfish to continue to remove wild animals from their environment for personal profit? You’re right, personal bias will not help correct the problems, so stop thinking about economics and start thinking about the world your going to leave for your children and your grandchildren. You can’t take money with you, but you can contribute to the extinction of species and the destruction of the environment.
Ernie, you have some really excellent points buried in here, especially “All of us who are involved with reptiles are on the same team and that should never be forgotten.” The difference between us is what we consider to be important. You seem to think that the most important thing is to not interrupt the economic benefits associated with the herp industry. I, on the other hand, think that the bigger issue to be looked at here is the destruction of our environment, and I am willing to stand up and take responsibility for my part in that destruction. I want to find ways to continue to keep herps, but I want to do it without contributing to the extinction of one or more species and the destruction of the environment at the same time. If trying to protect nature for its intrinsic value and not for personal gain makes me selfish, then I accept your definition of selfish, and indeed, I’ll wear the selfish badge with honor! Can you wear your badge of protecting the status quo for the financial benefit of a few herpers with honor? That is something only your conscience can say.
Big Brother

>>Sticks and stones, as I said, if you don’t like the message, fine, but resorting to personal attacks only makes you an extremist.

I wish you wouldn't have resorted to it in our LAST back-and-forth thread.

Also, it can't be a personal attack if the recipient of the alleged attack is posting anonymously.

I, on the other hand, think that the bigger issue to be looked at here is the destruction of our environment, and I am willing to stand up and take responsibility for my part in that destruction.

If you're willing to stand up and take responsibility, you'd be willing to tack your name on your posts.

If fear of reprimand on a professional level is what's bothering you, perhaps put a disclaimer in your signature line ("The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer" or words to that effect). Lots of people from lots of backgrounds post here, and as long as what you were saying was not being represented as the "official" viewpoint, we wouldn't condemn the entire group of which you're a part (whatever it may be!).
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,
You’re the one who wanted me to call you pedantic remember
I added dogmatic because you were stuck on a course of action and unwilling to change that course no matter what evidence was placed before you. I am truly sorry if you saw that as a personal attack. As you will recall, all I ever asked was for you to try and look at the problem from a different perspective, and all you would do is defend your position. That is dogmatic, and not very helpful when trying to resolve disagreements.

I am not putting my name out there for many reasons including legal ones, and I have no intentions of explaining my reasoning to you or any one else, so drop it. If you don’t like what I have to say, fine, ignore me, but I have as much right to my opinion as everyone else on this forum, and I have given a thumbnail sketch of my personal background which is far more than I know about most people making comments on this forum (you’re the exception because you have a personal website for your family out there in cyber land). Again, if you think I am a nut case with out any real points, then why do you and others feel it necessary to respond to my opinion? Is it possibly because there is some logic to what I have to say, or perhaps it is because deep down you know that the herp industry has a real dark side. You certainly keep pointing out the problems, that I for the most part agree with you on by the way, with the herp industry, so lets stick to the discussion topic instead of wondering how we can undermine each others point of view, shall we?

Big Brother

P.S. I still think you’re pedantic, but you’re also fun to debate!

"Some scientists and some exporters, maybe, but most of the scientists I work with, and myself included, know a whole lot more about the animals and their environment than the majority of animal exporters that drive into a small town in the middle of nowhere and hold up a dollar bill in one hand and a photograph of the herp he wants in the other hand for all the children in the village to see. The exporter then has an army of children, who often do know more about where the herps are than the scientists do, and this army is collecting animals for pennies on the dollar to the benefit of the exporter." Big Brother

And where and when did you witness this ? Fill in the blanks . And don`t try to dismiss these questions as being irelevent to avoid answering them. Your credibility wanes with every post. Ernie Eison

the majority of animal exporters that drive into a small town in the middle of nowhere and hold up a dollar bill in one hand and a photograph of the herp he wants in the other hand for all the children in the village to see. The exporter then has an army of children, who often do know more about where the herps are than the scientists do, and this army is collecting animals for pennies on the dollar to the benefit of the exporter. Big Brother

And when and where have you seen this ? Fill in the blanks provide the details.As of now your credibility wanes with every post. Ernie Eison

I’ve seen it done in Namibia, Zambia, India, and Sumatra, but I’ve only photographed it in Zimbabwe (you may have even seen the photos already, they have been published). Further, I have heard first hand accounts from Burma, Thailand, South Africa, Niger, Nigeria, Congo and Kenya, and second hand accounts from the Philippines, Borneo, New Guinea, Vietnam and China.
Big Brother

Oh really

A little dose of truth,

Ernie,
I have been to many African countries and stayed there for long periods of time mainly looking for birds. As a rule 99% of all africans and especially children are [bleep] scared of any and all reptiles and especially chameleons. So that story is not really true at all.Reptiles are killed on site and on sight. The few that are brave to handle or catch reptiles are feared and pushed out sometimes by the community as being possesed by withcraft. In zambia when they saw a snake even before i saw it the first rocks were already flying. It was as if they have this ability to see a snake and find a rock, throw it and kill it in 1 second so by the time i realised what was happening the snake was dead.
If you stopped the killing and asked them to leave the snakes the workers left and never returned.

In Uganda my supplier there had a few guys, all mid 20-30 years of age that collected the vipers etc. Most people were so scared and fascinated with them they were always encircled by many children when they arrived with snakes but when they touched the bags with snakes the crowd ran away.

This was the response I got from a close friend of mine who currently lives in South Africa. When I emailed him your story.

As for your reports and experiences in other countries I've been to and collected in some of them and know exporters in others None of the exporters I've ever stayed with or know gather animals as you described. NONE! The truth is most exporters have specific guys that are imployed by them .Another thing is that some of the countries listed don`t even allow the trade in live reptiles. Either you went out of your way to find the worst most bootleg scum or your lying. Show of hands. Ernie Eison

About the picture.Hes chief wildlife inspector in Suriname.I took that shot as he met us after we returned from several weeks deep in the interior forest.

I am not sure that most habitat destruction is done by herpers and collectors. Certainly there is plenty of evidence that the failure of a species is not herp collecting or the pet industry. There was a significant amount of habitat destruction going on in Hawaii in the release and collecting of chameleons and dentrobates and other such reptiles but for the most part in all other parts of the world, the habitat destruction is the driving force for depletion of the species and is a direct result of deforestation, cattle ranching and plain old poverty. I do not think that in the scientific community, you will find too many that would hold up herp collecting as the reason for specie depletion. On the contrary, herp collecting may be the only way to preserve a specie. On many levels

Chris,

I am not arguing that herpers are responsible for habitat destruction, but you must admit there are cases where destructive collecting such as breaking apart rocks etc. has had a negative effect. My argument is simply that a population of herps, already compromised by habitat destruction is very vulnerable to over collection and can thus be driven to extinction by collection for the herp industry, and there are plenty of examples of this occurring (I listed several examples previously). I would add that there is a real shift in thinking going on in the scientific community right now as a result of the Biological Diversity Crisis, and the number of publications that mention over collecting as a problem for species (not necessarily the major problem, but certainly a contributing or synergistic problem) are on the rise. Times, they are a changing!

Were we disagree is on the ability of CB by private herpers to save any species, because without animals preserved in habitat, the species will go extinct in a relatively short period of time, and as I have pointed out on a number of occasions, CB by private persons has no positive benefit to wild populations because there is no feed-back loop from CB to the wild populations.

Big Brother

Big brother says in response to Chris

"Were we disagree is on the ability of CB by private herpers to save any species, because without animals preserved in habitat, the species will go extinct in a relatively short period of time, and as I have pointed out on a number of occasions, CB by private persons has no positive benefit to wild populations because there is no feed-back loop from CB to the wild populations. "

I have to jump into this argument as well. To say that private herpers cannot save any specie I believe is false.

10-20 years ago, Florida and California collectors use to bring in Elaphe and Lampropeltis by the bag full from the wild and sell them into the pet industry. Now, there is no need to wild collect the Corn snakes and king snakes that use to be collected by the hundreds. There may only be a few breeders that are interested in buying adults in order to add new blood to a line, but certainly not for common pet store sales.

Posted by: Katrina at Wed Feb 18 16:46:39 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Interesting, considering I just this month heard a wholesaler/importer say that he expects to loose between 10% and 80% of his imported ball pythons, depending upon whether it is "early" in the season (10-15% loss) or "late" in the season (60-80% loss). He seemed to think this was the norm. Whether this is due to improper packing or the health of the animals upon export seems to be irrelevant, as the result is still a large ecological loss and a rather inhumane trade.

Katrina

I cannot believe the hogwash I am reading here. I do not know who you are Katrina but someone is giving you a line that is rediculous. First of all, all CITES animals including Ball pythons are required by CITES to be transported according to IATA. If not, the importer is fined as well as the airlines for accepting the shipment that is not packed according to IATA> If there were this many shipments coming in with this much mortality, there would be alot of broke importers. Second of all, the pictures that PETA and all drag out every time they make a presentation were of shipments from the 70's and 80's/. More so, several of them were of illegal and smuggled shipemnts that do not pertain to legal importers and suppliers. Third of all, freight and animals are far too expensive to "make it up in volumn": so I suggest that you verify your facts before you start talking about "what you have heard" on a forum that people take very seriously.

Christine Roscher

Do you have a link to the IATA regulations? If not, do you have an address to which I could write to get a complete copy?

Katrina

For a copy of the IATA regulations, it is a huge book covering airline regulations in general. The IATA sells this book and I do not believe there is a copy of it on the internet. They want companies that ship and have something to do with the airlines to buy the books. But you can go to any U.S. Customs broker or any airline and ask for the live animal IATA book and I am sure they would let you look at it and maybe copy it. Just tell them you need to ship an animal and want to know what regulations you need to comply with.

Christine,
The door swings in both directions! Where is YOUR PROOF that “Dead Shipments” do not occur any more, or where are all the convictions records for the people charged with the illegal packaging of animals under IATA. It is great to have a law, but if no one has the time or energy to actually enforce the law, it is meaningless. No one is saying that things aren’t much better since IATA, in fact I have stated things are much improved, but the bottom line is that abuses still happen which means we need to be vigilant and diligent, not complacent, because I guarantee you that PETA and other groups like them are not going away! So you can either reasonably respond to reasonable criticisms and help protect the animals you purport to enjoy or you can polarize yourself to the opposite extreme of PETA, which puts Katrina and me in the position of being the reasonable people that solve all the problems for the rest of you.
The choice is yours, get reasonable, or you effectively remove yourself from the conversation. And above all, be NICE we are all herpers here!
Big Brother

The choice is yours, get reasonable, or you effectively remove yourself from the conversation. And above all, be NICE we are all herpers here!
I wasnt aware that I wasnt being nice. Only disagreeing. And as far as packing shipments according to IATA, every shipment I put out, is according to IATA. And as far as enforcement of IATA on shipments coming in, Every one of my shipments that come in are inspected by Fish and Wildlife and I receive from 4-10 shipments per week from international destinations. And yes, I cannot speak to anyone elses business but I can certainly speak to my own. And although every shipment is not inspected 100%, they are spot checked and I assure you that if an IATA violation is seen on a CITES animal, and it is causing a problem with the health and wellbeing of an animal, someone is held accountable. So I am not sure what choice is mine,. Am I not able to share what I observe, or do we not what to hear about what we do not agree with

Chris,

This does not sound nice to me, “I cannot believe the hogwash I am reading here. I do not know who you are Katrina but someone is giving you a line that is ridiculous… so I suggest that you verify your facts before you start talking about "what you have heard" on a forum that people take very seriously,” and that is what I was responding to, but I will admit my skin is a little thin these days, so let’s just get back to the issue.

Please re-read my post where I say herpers have greatly improved, and the majority of the problem is with the food industry shipments, but that herpers are lumped with the food industry due to the way the statistics are collected, which only makes herpers look bad. Again IATA has greatly improved things, but we are in a public relations battle with PETA, so we have got to PROVE to the general public that PETA is wrong, or we, the minority herp community, is going to loose.

Big Brother

"Please re-read my post where I say herpers have greatly improved, and the majority of the problem is with the food industry shipments, but that herpers are lumped with the food industry due to the way the statistics are collected, which only makes herpers look bad."

Makes herpers look bad? Sorry, Bro, when statistics are misattributed, misinterpreted, and misused it makes those wrongly using those statistics look bad. Knowing those numbers are bogus, as does everyone with any experience in the live animal industry, and repeating them like we should be concerned shows me that your concerns are severly misplaced. You should be much more concerned with governmental angecies and employees who reveal their incompetence by failing to make sure data from two non-related data sets are compiled as one. Kind of makes one wonder what else the 'Big Brother' misrepresents.

"Again IATA has greatly improved things, but we are in a public relations battle with PETA, so we have got to PROVE to the general public that PETA is wrong, or we, the minority herp community, is going to loose."

We ARE NOT in a public relations battle with PETA. PETA and the HSUS would like the public to think there is a battle, but for as gullible as the public can be, they don't buy what PETA is trying to sell becuase it smells like two day old fish left in the sun. The only people who seem to even listen to special interest extremist groups like PETA are government officials and employees who are detached from reality who then try and enact terrible legislation, usually failing miserably, because they are shown to be incompetent and incapable of properly understanding and utilizing statstics to support their position. In the end the government has wasted money that could have gone towards something beneficial and another sell-out politician looks like a fool. And, all along the public laughs because they don't deal with extremist groups like PETA who would forbid ownership of dogs and cats if the world were 'perfect.'

First off the Gov’t does not report the statistics, they report the raw numbers, and other organizations (like TRAFFIC, a subgroup of the United Nations, and HSUS) put together the statistics based on the raw numbers the F&WS and APHIS report.

Second, I am the one who said the food industry was responsible for most of the mortality, so if I misrepresented the data, as you suggest, then herpers are responsible for a greater proportion of the mortality, and that doesn’t make you look very good now does it? Or perhaps you, like Ernie, are suggesting that mortality during shipping never occurs because in your experience you have never seen any mortality, therefore I am a liar. I think most people who have had any experience with shipping animals understand that mortality is always a possibility even if you do everything right. And when your only interested in how many 50 cent turtles you can get to the kitchen and turn into soup that sells for $5 a bowl, high mortality is no big deal, so why put any more than the absolute bare minimum into your packaging? It all comes down to simple economics.

Third, do you honestly think the general public is going to take the time to question the statistics presented in a published report originating from the United Nations? And FYI, the general public does have a problem with PETA, but the general public does not have a problem with HSUS, so when the general public hear PETA and HSUS talk about the same problem with a TRAFFIC report to back it up, guess who looses? It ain’t PETA, and when you come off calling everyone a liar that disagrees with you, and make statements like, “…government officials and employees who are detached from reality who then try and enact terrible legislation, usually failing miserably, because they are shown to be incompetent and incapable of properly understanding and utilizing statstics(sic) to support their position” without a shred of data or any statistics to support your position, you’re the one who looks like a radical snake nut. In short, you’re the one with out any credibility to the “gullible” general public, and you will loose the public relations battle.

In other words, you make a whole lot of assumptions based largely on your anger with out really looking at the problem. Further, you fail to see how this problem and your bad attitude will play with the majority of people in this country, so good luck trying to convince anyone but yourself and your fellow angry herpers that PETA, HSUS and TRAFFIC are a bunch of radical extremists.

And BTW, if you think the Gov’t in the US is so screwed up, then find someplace else to live! Even with all of our problems, I still think this is the best country in the world, and I am tired of hearing people like you bash it!

Big Brother

Further, you fail to see how this problem and your bad attitude will play with the majority of people in this country, so good luck trying to convince anyone but yourself and your fellow angry herpers that PETA, HSUS and TRAFFIC are a bunch of radical extremists.

And BTW, if you think the Gov’t in the US is so screwed up, then find someplace else to live! Even with all of our problems, I still think this is the best country in the world, and I am tired of hearing people like you bash it!

I am not sure but I do not think Traffic should be lumped in with Peta and HSUS. I could be wrong but they have done some good work with the Asian Turtle problem, have published some good books, and lately have not taken a position of ANTI Herpetologist from what I have seen

"First off the Gov’t does not report the statistics, they report the raw numbers, and other organizations (like TRAFFIC, a subgroup of the United Nations, and HSUS) put together the statistics based on the raw numbers the F&WS and APHIS report."

So, should we forgive our government for not doing their own homework and allowing themselves to be misled by special interest like the HSUS, a group ON PAR with PETA? The picture you are painting of the lackadaisical behaivor and incompetence in our government is cause for concern. Unfortunately, many people confuse the HSUS for the many local human societies around the country who are worthy of support and praise.

"Second, I am the one who said the food industry was responsible for most of the mortality, so if I misrepresented the data, as you suggest, then herpers are responsible for a greater proportion of the mortality, and that doesn’t make you look very good now does it?"

What? If anything, you misrepresenting herpers by lumping in mortality not related to pet imports makes YOU look bad. Or, you failing to discount the data as bogus due to the known flaws of the analysis makes you look bad. How can you NOT see that? When people refuse to analyze individual situations on their own merits and weaknesses the problem isn't with the data or the activity under analysis, the problem is with the person/people conducting the analysis. Those who hold on to bad information and give it credence only contribute to the problem.

"Or perhaps you, like Ernie, are suggesting that mortality during shipping never occurs because in your experience you have never seen any mortality, therefore I am a liar."

Wow, a clever ploy to deceive the readership by presenting an erroeneous and baseless version of what 'I'm' suggesting. You sly devil. Of course, baseless assertions are worth about as much as a condom with a hole. I never said shipping mortality never occurs and would never make such an unfounded and indefensible statement. You, on the other hand, seem to have no compunction about twisting the positions of others to try and give yourself some credibility. Ooops, shot yourself in the foot, again.

"I think most people who have had any experience with shipping animals understand that mortality is always a possibility even if you do everything right."

Statement of the obvious.

"And when your only interested in how many 50 cent turtles you can get to the kitchen and turn into soup that sells for $5 a bowl, high mortality is no big deal, so why put any more than the absolute bare minimum into your packaging? It all comes down to simple economics."

Simple economics would then dictate that keeping as many animals alive as possible would provide for the greatest return on one's investment. Spending another $10 on packaging and receiving 50 more live turtles translates into a large sum of money through time. So, you're telling me, those same greedy people who chince on their shipping aren't going to demonstrate the same level of greed through product profit? Doesn't make good business sense that one positon holds true but not the other. However, if one of the various regulatory agencies, possibly like the one you claim to be affiliated with, drops the ball and allows negligent shippers to develop a culture of irresponsible practices, why should the blame be directed at the herp community? There is certainly a problem, and for all WE know, it stares YOU in the face every morning.

"Third, do you honestly think the general public is going to take the time to question the statistics presented in a published report originating from the United Nations?"

If they have any level of education, yes. Critical thinking and examination of issues is paramount in a country where the people supposedly elect the government and whose will is reflected in govermental decisions and policy. Besides, when does the US listen to the UN? If that were the case our military would have never have been deployed to Iraq.

"And FYI, the general public does have a problem with PETA, but the general public does not have a problem with HSUS, so when the general public hear PETA and HSUS talk about the same problem with a TRAFFIC report to back it up, guess who looses?"

(Hey BB, did you notice you used "looses" instead of "loses?" I thought it was pretty funny seeing how you felt the need to try and pick at me by pointing out my typo below. You are grasping at anything now, aren't you?)

The public loses! In a case as you describe the public loses because the public fails to evaluate the integrity of the original data. You would think red flags would be raised when the HSUS align themselves with PETA. The sharing of positions among groups of radicals with a UN group should make people want to see how each group came to their independent conclusions. If the paths were not independent the public should be extremely wary and demand further investigation of the source information.

"It ain’t PETA, and when you come off calling everyone a liar that disagrees with you, and make statements like, “…government officials and employees who are detached from reality who then try and enact terrible legislation, usually failing miserably, because they are shown to be incompetent and incapable of properly understanding and utilizing statstics(sic) to support their position” without a shred of data or any statistics to support your position, you’re the one who looks like a radical snake nut."

Exactly how I figured you'f respond. Professional , my....yeah, you know. People like you who need to put words in the mouth of the opposition to strengthen your position only reveal your position and its foundation to be weak. Hear that sound? It's your credibility further crumbling away. As for calling everyone a liar, you know that to be an untrue statement. You are advancing your cause by taking libeties with words that were never said. If you had said that I give BB's accounts little credibility, that would have been the truth. Your blatant and repeated attempt to mislead others is dispicable! By the reactionary nature of you response, it wouldn't surprise me if you were a PETA or HSUS member. You sure sound like one.

In short, you’re the one with out any credibility to the “gullible” general public, and you will loose the public relations battle.

Hah, you think two can play at the credibility game? Sorry, you are a late entry out of desperation. I would love to be the front man in a public relations battle with the like of PeETA, HSUS, or even YOU. It wouldn't even be a competition.

"In other words, you make a whole lot of assumptions based largely on your anger with out really looking at the problem."

Hello pot, I'm the kettle, you calling me black? Again, stop trying to impart your worst case scenario on me and let my words stand for themselves. I have looked at the problem and I can assure you I generate little to no anger over it...except when irresponsible individuals try and incorrectly portray reality. I do not buy or sell reptiles. My interests in herps is very different from importers and hobbyists intent on building large collections. Due to my detachment from the situation I can stand back and look at them more objectively than those who have something at stake, like you. And yes, I do have experience with the live herp trade so I'm not just talking out of my...you know...Big Brother.

"Further, you fail to see how this problem and your bad attitude will play with the majority of people in this country, so good luck trying to convince anyone but yourself and your fellow angry herpers that PETA, HSUS and TRAFFIC are a bunch of radical extremists."

You are grasping at staws. This problem, as you've defined it, isn't even with herp transport. My confrontational attitude is exactly what is needed by ANYONE, not just herpers, when irrational regulation is pending on the recommendation of those who refuse to even view the problem for what it is. People like that, and you seemingly fit the bill, are easily identifiable as extremists.

"And BTW, if you think the Gov’t in the US is so screwed up, then find someplace else to live!"

Oh, you're so patriotic! Whenever arguments are failing miserably reach for something everyone can identify with. I use my voice and my VOTE to be heard. I comment on proposals in my home state and I work with local law enforcement to try and improve problems within my local herp community. I believe education and ACCURATE information is a necessity for improvement. You're ability to cloud the issue so people have to address non-related issues does not help make progress.

"Even with all of our problems, I still think this is the best country in the world, and I am tired of hearing people like you bash it!"

How is the view from upon that high horse of self righteousness? Where did I bash the USA? I made a statement about some of the US's citizens who serve the people and have have grown lazy while allowing themselves to be misled and I'm the traitor? C'mon, you've shown so much promise so far and that is the best distraction you can come up with?

Posted by: BigBrother at Sat Feb 21 17:24:06 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Christine,
The door swings in both directions! Where is YOUR PROOF that “Dead Shipments” do not occur any more,

If I lead you to believe that I was saying that dead shipments do not occur anymore, this would obviously absurd. And I certainly cannot speak for everyone. I can only speak to my first hand experience. Otherwise all i have to say would be hearsay.
And of course there is mortality in shipments. Airlines put boxes over ventilation in compartments, they forget to turn on temperature controls, but for us, there is little mortality now with regard to how the animals are shipped and packaged which is what the topic in most of my comments were.

Christine,

Great! If you are willing to see that there is more to this issue/problem than just your experience, and you can agree that the problems with the food industry tarnish us, then we are in complete agreement!

Now the hard part, what do we do to fix the problem?

Big Brother

"Now the hard part, what do we do to fix the problem?"

We point out to those who lump the herp trade with the food trade how extremely stupid they are and how they should refrain from, no change that, are banned by international decree, from ever making any decision more important than what color shirt to wear. Then, we replace those imbeciles with monkeys that are twice as smart and non-descriminating. Problems solved, peace ensues. Next.

The scary part is you probably really think this is how to solve a problem.
Reality anyone?

I'm sure you're just acting dense as a diversionary tactic.

"The scary part is you probably really think this is how to solve a problem."

It certainly would be an entertaining solution.

Reality anyone?"

Hello, sarcasm!...or are you worried about losing your job to a monkey?

or where are all the convictions records for the people charged with the illegal packaging of animals under IATA

Fish and Wildife is a regulatory agency, not a law enforcement agency. Fines are levied against IATA violations both to the importers as they are held accountable for their shippers actions(such as improperly packaged containers) and the fines are also levied against the airlines. As I stated before, these fines are one of the reasons KLM has discontinued carrying all animals. And If you look at any CITES permit, part of the requirement of the CITES permit is that they are packaged and transported according to IATA regulations. Part 5 under "Conditions of Permits" Frankly most wildlife regulations are hard to enforce, but here is a tool to use when it is obvious that any mortality for a shipment transiting or ending in a US port, there is a tool that can be welded against the mortality.

Christine,

Again, we agree except for the following, “Fish and Wildlife is a regulatory agency, not a law enforcement agency.” And here you are wrong. The US Fish and Wildlife Service, which is in the U.S. Department of the Interior, is divided into two Divisions, the biological division that runs the Endangered Species Programs, comments on regulatory matters like Environmental Impact Reports etc., and “The Division of Law Enforcement,” which is responsible for inspecting all wildlife cargo at ports of entry, and it is the F&WS that enforces the IATA regulations, CITES conventions, Lacy Act violations etc.. The Div. of LE has a team of Wildlife Inspectors all across the country whose job it is to inspect wildlife cargo, and they also have a team of US Federal Special Agents distributed all across the country, who are Badge carrying, gun toting law enforcement officers with the same basic power and authority as an FBI Agent, whose job it is to investigate wildlife crime and enforce Federal wildlife law, so the US F&WS is a Federal Law Enforcement Agency, just like the FBI, Secret Service etc.

Big Brother

Well Chris,

You knew I couldn’t keep my mouth shut on this one J
Again, I think you are really getting at the problem issues here.

Unfortunately, the scenario of dead animals way over packed in crates continues to happen all the time. Since the Air Transport Regulations came out, the number of “dead shipments” has dropped, but there are still about 25% of the commercial animal shipments that come in over-packed with dead animals. This is a case where the herp industry itself is doing much better, but the food etc. industry is not cleaning up their act, and like it or not, herpers get lumped with the rest of the animal market, so the situation is still bad. We do ourselves a disservice by saying, “dead shipments” are “propaganda” of PETA etc. because “dead shipments” are still a significant problem in the animal industry. By dismissing this criticism as invalid just makes us herpers come off as being “naive” or “in denial” about the problem. What we really need to do here is come up with a way to separate ourselves (herpers) from the food market to get a more clear picture of where the problem mostly lies, but Gov’t statistics for the most part do not differentiate between the two industries, so we’re stuck in a rut.

I hate to say it, cause I know your going to grimace Chris, but I think this is a case where we need to significantly increase the penalties for shippers who violate the Air Transport Regulations (and the USDA Regs) to make it more cost effective to ship animals in a sensible manor, than to pack crates full of critters and hope for the best cause if you loose the whole shipment it’s not a big loss (i.e. hit ‘em in the economics department, which is what drives the “dead shippers” in the first place). This will have little impact on herpers because, as I said, they have for the most part already cleaned up their act, and the few that haven’t are generally the guys you don’t want to buy animals from anyway! Your proposal, on the other hand, would effectively penalize the good guys, which I think we can agree is not our goal here, and the scum bags would just send more smaller shipments o stay under your threshold shipment size to avoid the extra expense.

One other suggestion I have is to subject the airlines to some kind of responsibility with the handling of live cargo. Most airlines don’t give any more of a hoot about live cargo than they do any other cargo. Even sending live shipments on “Tac-Rate” (i.e. priority status at a higher cost) does not guarantee that a reasonably packaged box of turtles doesn’t sit out on the tarmac in the hot sun all afternoon. Whenever you ship live animals the Airlines make you sign a waver releasing them of any responsibility for the live delivery of the shipment, and most of the express couriers will not take live shipments at all, so we’re stuck in another rut.

Ultimately, I think the best way to eliminate this problem is to eliminate the WC of exotic herps, and simply breed most right here in the US to supply the pet industry, but my guess is I’m in the minority on this opinion even though most breeders state this as their ultimate goal.

Big Brother

First off anyone who lends any credence to activist groups such a peta are the ones doing themselves great diservice.They have about as much credibility as someone posting under a phony screen name.The usda officals I deal with would be the first to agree.

J . Maybe I missed it but how about a little background info about yourself. I could be wrong but you sound like a guy who reads a lot of web pages but hasn't done all that much in the real world. Now assuming I `m wrong and I could be. I have few questions, for instance what countries have you been to and during you travels have you ever stayed with or talked with exporters or traveled in the field with their collectors that type of thing done any real hands on research? Ecological studies? Anything thing published ?Do you work for the government inspecting shipments of live animals maybe you have a background in the import/export field or are you a professional breeder,a scientist or just a guy who hangs out around the loading docks ?You don `t have to say to much I don `t want to blow your cover and get you killed. But I am curious. Ernie Eison

Ernie,
As I have said before, my background is really irrelevant to the discussion, and I find that human nature dictates that when a person has an opinion counter to their own, for some reason the discussion has to turn to a personal attack to sidetrack the real discussion and the real issues. This kind of debate tactic only serves to divide people. As an example, take a look at our own polarized two party system in America. We are almost forced into one extreme or the other even though most surveys show that most Americans lie somewhere in the middle. If you don’t like what I have to say, then ignore me as just another Internet whacko! But, if you want to have a real discussion of the issues, I’m your man.
Having said that, I will tell you what I have already said about myself on this forum before. I have been keeping herps for over 35 years, and about 25 of those years have been in a professional capacity. I have more letters behind my name than in it, I have published in journals and gray literature, and yes I have worked on a number of conservation and law enforcement projects both Nationally and Internationally. I put my money, time and efforts where my mouth is! But I don’t feel that I have to flaunt all of my personal accomplishments to get my point across.
So why am I messing around on KingSnake? Because I like keeping herps as pets, I want to conserve them in habitat, and because I recognize that conserving this planet and the species that make it their home is only going to happen if everyone takes responsibility for their own actions. The herp community, like it or not, is having a devastating impact on natural populations. Yes, the major problem most species face is environmental destruction, but when you cut the habitat of a species in half or less, you cannot expect that same species to support collection for the pet industry and still remain viable. There are a limited number of resources in this world, and we humans seem to think that everything is ours for the taking with no consequences. We are in desperate environmental times as a result of this shortsighted philosophy, the balance is tipping toward wholesale destruction of the environment. We can either get realistic and look critically at our actions, or parish within a few hundred years, and I for one would like to leave behind some natural ecosystems with herps in their natural environment for my grandchildren to enjoy.
Now, shall we get back to the topic and leave the personal attacks to the politicians?

Big Brother

One other suggestion I have is to subject the airlines to some kind of responsibility with the handling of live cargo. Most airlines don’t give any more of a hoot about live cargo than they do any other cargo. Even sending live shipments on “Tac-Rate” (i.e. priority status at a higher cost) does not guarantee that a reasonably packaged box of turtles doesn’t sit out on the tarmac in the hot sun all afternoon. Whenever you ship live animals the Airlines make you sign a waver releasing them of any responsibility for the live delivery of the shipment, and most of the express couriers will not take live shipments at all, so we’re stuck in another rut.

Airlines are held accountable for mortality that can be proved to be their fault. KLM quit shipping live animals because of the number of fines they received because of mortality of live animals, both reptiles and warm blooded animals. In cases of gross airlines negligence, they are fined by not following the very specific guidelines that are set out for airline proceedures just like we have for packaging.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding! How can you possibly demonstrate gross negligence to a box? Unless you have an eyewitness to the negligence, there is no way to show that the airline was actually guilty of negligence. This is especially true when you sign the shipping waver relieving the shipper of responsibility of live delivery, as is required by the few airlines that still do accept live cargo. Yes, there have been a few cases where the airlines have gotten in trouble (mainly since the new laws were enacted a couple of years ago), but the majority of neglect such as placing animal cargo boxes in the sun on the fenders of the Auxiliary Power Units on the tarmac while waiting for a plane to arrive, goes unpunished. Aside from the heat generated by the APU engine, the noise is so loud the grounds crew have to where hearing protection to be any where around the APU’s. How are you going to sue the airline for your turtle going deaf, or how are you going to prove that the box containing your turtle was exposed to temperatures in excess of 140 deg. F for 20 minutes a day or two before.
This is a very difficult problem!

Big Brother

How can you possibly demonstrate gross negligence to a box? Unless you have an eyewitness to the negligence, there is no way to show that the airline was actually guilty of negligence.

That was the premise behind my "courier" idea. The person accompanying the box would be working for the importer, and to maximize profit he has to ensure as much of his shipment as possible makes it through the whole process alive and well. Hence, the courier watches the box after disembarking to make sure it's not left out on the tarmac in extreme heat/cold/noise.

-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Yep, and it is a good one. I just don’t think it is very realistic to have a courier along to watch over the shipments. First off, the courier is not going to be allowed on the tarmac because of security, and because few airlines will allow reptiles of any kind in the cabin with the courier, so what is the courier going to accomplish besides taking a plane ride and costing people money?

Big Brother

Big brother wrote:

"Aside from the heat generated by the APU engine, the noise is so loud the grounds crew have to where hearing protection to be any where around the APU’s. How are you going to sue the airline for your turtle going deaf,"

>>>Grounds crews were hearing protection because they are exposed to loud noise for long periods. I doubt any turtles will be going deaf unless they get a job working around loud jet engines

Wrong,

I’ve been through tarmac safety training many years ago, and one of the first things you learn is that you can permanently damage your hearing in as little as 30 seconds out on the tarmac without proper hearing protection (and sticking your fingers in your ears will not stop the high frequency sound waves from wiping you basilar membrane clear of all receptive cilia) when either a jet or APU is fired up. Further, us mammals have three inner ear bones that hinge and even disconnect to dampen loud noises. The muscles that pull these bones apart aren’t very strong and cannot hold the bones apart for very long, which is why people can be exposed to loud noises for short period with out serious damage, but these muscles can only hold the bones apart for so long, and when they weaken, the damage is done very quickly! Reptiles, (and snakes are obviously different here) on the other hand, only have a single inner ear bone, the stapes (the malleus and incus are still part of the jaw articulation in reptiles, not the inner ear as in mammals), to transmit sound waves from the tympanum to the oval window, so there is no dampening and no disconnect, which is why a single off road motorcycle without a muffler can cause a tortoise to go deaf after a single close pass.
Finally, last time I checked, jets move to the gate under the power of their own jet engines, so if you’re a turtle in a box waiting on the tarmac to be loaded on the plane when it arrives, you are exposed to some very very loud jet engines, and are more likely to suffer serous or even total hearing loss than not.

Big Brother

BB, show me one documented case were a reptile went deaf because it was expose to loud noises from a jet engine.

OH Come on! Use your God given brain!
There are several published papers on hearing loss of tortoises and lizards resulting from dirt bikes (e.g. Daniel Doak; Peter Kareiva; Brad Klepetka 1994. Modeling Population Viability for the Desert Tortoise in the Western Mojave Desert. Ecological Applications, 4(3): 446-460; Berry, K.H. 1984. The Status of the Desert Tortoise (Gopherus agassizii) in the United States. Desert Tortoise Council Report to the US F&WS, Sac., CA.)
Is it really all that hard to understand that a jet airplane makes more noise than a dirt bike? For a guy that asks for proof all the time, you sure don’t offer much to support your position!

Again, Big Brother could not cite one ref. to back up his false statement! Instead he sends me on another wild goose chase. People, is this the kind of person you want taking away your freedom??

M5,
It appears the only thing you dislike more than my opinions and me is logic.

Have a Nice DayJ

Big Brother

But it can be. I have proved it with shipments from Indonesia via Japan Airlines. The shipment was packaged with Styrofoam and the inside temperatures were so high you could have roasted a pig in it. Fish and wildlife did write it up. There is evidence that can be used for overheating, freezing is a little more difficult. We only ship on airlines that will be accountable for the freight and we only ship over the counter. Many companies ship with carriers that do not even want you to declare there are animals in the packages. What I have been speaking to is for international shipments only. Not domestic. The evidence that PETA and all brings up are all of international shipments and international shipments was all I was refering to. Not domestic shipments. This is a whole other subject worthy of something.

Christine,

Again, we agree!

Do you believe me when I say that mortality still occurs, but that the majority of the mortality I have observed occurs within the animal food industry?
If so, can you agree that it makes the herp industry look bad because the herp industry and food industry mortality is lumped by the way the statistics reported to the public are collected?
Now what do we do to shut down PETA?
Pretending there is not a problem, as Frank would have us do, does not help us win the public relations battle.

Big Brother

Christine,

Again, we agree!

Do you believe me when I say that mortality still occurs, but that the majority of the mortality I have observed occurs within the animal food industry?
If so, can you agree that it makes the herp industry look bad because the herp industry and food industry mortality is lumped by the way the statistics reported to the public are collected?
Now what do we do to shut down PETA?

Unfortunately Big Brother there is nothing we can do but keep answering their stupid far out statements when posed in a fashion to make legal changes. This is America and we are the status quo. Apathy abounds when we are happy the way things are. Action lives when we are trying to change policy. We must act agressively EVERY TIME we are challenged until it becomes obvious we are not just a bunch of losers with reptiles. We must present ourselves as the majority and every time answer the situation as it comes around. These forum boards allow quick dissemination of information and PIJAC has the tools available to make answering every challenge. We are being attacked on a daily basis by PETA USHS and all the other groups that would be happy to never have a herp in captivity again. It is not up to the importers to defend the right to import, it is not up to the breeders to defend their right to continue to captive breed, it is not up to the pet shops to defend the right to sell pets, it is not up to the individual pet owners to defend the right to have the pets we interact with and make our lives a little smoother every day. It is up to all of us to act together. And it is up to all of us to make sure that we do not place ourselves in a postition to be targets for PETA and USHS to hold up for example.

I think the problem is that there are too many species that have NOT been established as captive bred specimens yet - because it is not economical to do so when wc specimens can be had for so cheap. OR, the species aren't considered "cool" enough to captively breed... Some examples are animals like Sudan Plated lizards - have every bit the personality of a beardie, but don't garner the attention, and thus aren't captive bred, plus wc ones are cheap.

Oddball snakes, say, like Asian and European natricines, the equivalent of NA gartersnakes make great pets, as do NA garters, but for the most part, are considered "trash" or "beginner" snakes. Many petstore lizards that do make good pets are also wildcaught, and aren't yet widely captive bred, if at all.... flying, golden, and tokay geckoes....

Anoles - many Caribbean anoles are every bit as beautiful as day geckoes, and yet aren't captive bred, outside of Europe, if we can get them in the US, they are either wc, or imported cb from Europe. Maybe this just boils down to a popularity contest, such as with dogs, everyone knows greyhounds, but have never heard of Galgo Espanols.

This is why I don't think wc should be eliminated totally, because we would be cutting ourselves off from many animals who not only would do quite well breeding in captivity, once we learn their breeding particulars, but would actually make good vivarium specimens or even "pets".

What we DO have to do is make sure that the existing import/export laws, and air shipped live cargo guidelines are enforced, to ensure that animals arrive healthy and as stress free as possible, improve those laws where necessary, perhaps somehow raise the prices of wc (through a herp importation tax maybe that would go to habitat preservation in the country you're importing from?) Then at that point, it would be worth it to breed and offer cb at a higher price, knowing that wc aren't a tenth of the price... and hopefully, this would get more people involved in establishing some other species in captivity, so that we won't always HAVE to collect from the wild.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, but some of the most interesting animals I have kept are the small oddball ones that many herpers can't even ID, (Xenochrophis vittatus anyone?) much less get as cb, and I can't support banning the import of the creatures I like best until I, or someone else, can get them to be established and routinely breed in captivity.

Ultimately, it would be awesome, if we didnt' have to wild collect, but if we cut it off now, I suspect we would lose some captive populations of species, because we don't know their breeding regimen well enough.

But it takes time and continuing acquisition of new breeding stock to establish some genetic diversity within a cb species... I can cite examples where the lack thereof has caused genetic deficiencies - namely in the European population of legally kept San Francisco garter snakes.

These are just my opinions.....although probably not popular ones with you...

Lisa McCune

Posted by: Thamnophile at Fri Feb 20 22:04:26 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I think the problem is that there are too many species that have NOT been established as captive bred specimens yet - because it is not economical to do so when wc specimens can be had for so cheap. OR, the species aren't considered "cool" enough to captively breed...

Bless you. this is absolutely true. Who do you know that breeds Mtn Horned lizards. Or flying geckos, or as the previous example anoles. Another problem with keeping these animals in captivity is life expectancy. It is also why it is difficult to sell some animals for alot of money. People complain about mortality in shipping and maintaining in the pet trade. But many of these animals do not live more than 2 years. And if an adult is imported you do not know how old these animals are. These animals are natures reproducers but their longivity is very small. Yet people are frustrated when they die so quickly. All animals do not live for 70 years either

Well, I may have misspoken - I should have said Mountain Horned Dragons, Acanthosaura sp., usually A. capra. (Rather than Phrynosoma from the western US - durned common names!)

Anyways, if interested in MHDs, check out the Mountain/Tree Dragon forum, and look for posts by FroggieB - she has had significant success breeding Acanthosaura capra, and had a husbandry/breeding article published in Reptiles mag in Oct. 2003.

Sadly, I don't know anyone who captively breeds flying geckos. The few I've seen were recently wc, and had those little red lizard mites. If I found some that were in good health, I would try breeding them....

As for anoles, there is a Yahoo! egroup for anoles that is associated with the Anolis Contact Group. There's lots of good info to be found amongst the members there. You can get unusual cb anoles from members from time to time, often though, they are from people in Europe, and I don't know how difficult it is for an individual to successfully import animals.

What you said about longevity is definitely true. I have purchased wc anoles of various species where the males had many old scars from battles with other males during mating season. These males were definitely "elder statesmen" - older individuals that probably wouldn't have survived much longer in the wild anyways. Knowing how difficult it can be to catch an anole, and that older, slower specimens are easier to catch, it might be that these appear more frequently on dealers' lists.

Lisa

Bless you. this is absolutely true. Who do you know that breeds Mtn Horned lizards. Or flying geckos, or as the previous example anoles. Another problem with keeping these animals in captivity is life expectancy. It is also why it is difficult to sell some animals for alot of money. People complain about mortality in shipping and maintaining in the pet trade. But many of these animals do not live more than 2 years. And if an adult is imported you do not know how old these animals are. These animals are natures reproducers but their longivity is very small. Yet people are frustrated when they die so quickly. All animals do not live for 70 years either

Lisa,

I think you have some very valid points for some of the species you discuss, and I really like the idea of an import tax on herps to drive the price up enough to make CB profitable. I often ask herpers, why are we still importing trunk loads of ball pythons on an almost daily basis to support the pet industry here in the US? We have no trouble breeding ball pythons in captivity, and everyone with any sense knows that CB ball pythons make much better pets than sickly WC pythons, but yet we still import WC ball pythons by the crate load, and most of those WC pythons die. Why is that?

I think it all comes down to money. You can make more money importing living-dead ball pythons than you can breeding healthy ones, and the kid at the pet store buying the ball python is looking at his wallet when he makes the decision to buy the cheaper pet, and the sales person at the pet store usually doesn’t care as long as they get their cut of the profits. Let’s face it; the herp industry is driven by money and profit. The tariff you are suggesting would help make captive breeding profitable, but still allow the importation of some animals for breeding stock.

Now the tough question… How do you implement this idea?

Big Brother

P.S. SF Garters have trouble because they started out with a very, very small gene pool, and there is no larger gene pool to sample from because there are far more SF Garters in captivity than there are in the wild!! In other words, this is a bad example to use for your case.

BB,

I just wanted to reiterate that the tax on importing herps would be used to preserve habitat in the country you're importing from, and perhaps to establish some ecotourism, to give people in the area an economic alternative to habitat destruction and exploiting wildlife.

As for the SF garter, it's a perfect example. Here's why:

SF garters are offlimits to the private individual. Zoos (for the most part) stopped breeding them because they produce so many offspring that there wouldn't be enough zoos to keep them all, and if released into the private sector there's no way of distinguishing them from wc (this was before pittagging, but I don't think you could pittag a juvie garter anyways - too small).

So zoos stopped breeding them, and didn't replace animals that succumbed to old age. So the few zoos that did continue breeding, did so with increasingly inbred stock (true). But once cb specimens legally made it into the European herp hobby, they hit another, tighter bottleneck and became much more inbred due to genetic isolation in Europe. This led to smaller adult size, reduced lifespan, spinal kinking, and reduced litter size and survival.

This could have all been prevented, first, if zoos worked to preserve ALL endangered species, not just the cute and fuzzy ones, and secondly if these animals were released to the hobby in the first place, then we would have a much more genetically healthy cb population here in the US. Considering that the SF garter is considered by many to be one of the most beautiful native snakes, this would be a good thing.

Interestingly the newest genetic/taxonomic studies show that the SF garter, Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia is indistinguishable from the California red-sided, Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis. So according to that, tetrataenia isn't a valid subspecies, and should be listed as T. infernalis. The only difference between the two is minor, T. infernalis generally has black vertical bars crossing the red stripes, but in many individuals, this feature is partially or wholly lacking. T. infernalis not protected and is common, ie. there is a much larger gene pool out there, albeit, maybe not quite the same color pattern, but garters as a whole, are very variable species.

So someday, once the government catches up with the science, maybe we too can keep the SF garter. The challenge then will be to bring in new blood, probably using "other" T. infernalis to outcross to those individuals that exhibit less inbreeding.

Knowing that you like citations , I can provide some regarding the SF garter, if you like, I just don't have them at hand right now.

You do raise some valid points for discussion BB, and ones that we as a hobby have to address.... Whereas many see the issue as black and white, I think it's unfortunate, but it's not really that simple, there are some major gray areas that both sides of the issue need to cooperate and come to an agreement on.

Lisa

Lisa,

I think you have some very valid points for some of the species you discuss, and I really like the idea of an import tax on herps to drive the price up enough to make CB profitable. I often ask herpers, why are we still importing trunk loads of ball pythons on an almost daily basis to support the pet industry here in the US? We have no trouble breeding ball pythons in captivity, and everyone with any sense knows that CB ball pythons make much better pets than sickly WC pythons, but yet we still import WC ball pythons by the crate load, and most of those WC pythons die. Why is that?

I think it all comes down to money. You can make more money importing living-dead ball pythons than you can breeding healthy ones, and the kid at the pet store buying the ball python is looking at his wallet when he makes the decision to buy the cheaper pet, and the sales person at the pet store usually doesn’t care as long as they get their cut of the profits. Let’s face it; the herp industry is driven by money and profit. The tariff you are suggesting would help make captive breeding profitable, but still allow the importation of some animals for breeding stock.

Now the tough question… How do you implement this idea?

Big Brother

P.S. SF Garters have trouble because they started out with a very, very small gene pool, and there is no larger gene pool to sample from because there are far more SF Garters in captivity than there are in the wild!! In other words, this is a bad example to use for your case.

Lisa,

Using the tax to prevent/reduce habitat destruction just makes a good idea better. What has got to happen is we have got to make it more profitable to breed herps than it is to remove them from the wild, and anything that works toward that goal I support! With the caveat that it cannot open the smuggling market, which is the biggest enemy!

Don’t ever let it be said I do not point out the missteps of the Government when they occur! The situation with the SF Garter was a little worse than you think. The people in charge at the time did not want captive breeding going on even at zoos with the SF garter snake, which is why zoos were given groups of all same sex individuals initially. Mistakes were made, breeding occurred and people got into trouble for breeding in captivity with out a permit, and since these little buggars are so easy to breed in captivity, and are so prolific, it did not take very many “mistakes” before just about every zoo in the country that wanted them, had them, so the captive population is really just a small representation of the initial gene pool that was available at one time (too bad, because even though I am not a big garter snake fan, SF Garters are pretty and it would sure be nice to still have some options available to us). The decision not to breed was made because the animal was endangered (initially) due to a lack of suitable habitat. The available habitat was filled to “capacity,” so the fear was that captive bred animals would wind up back in habitat and introduce exotic diseases into the extant populations, increase competition for the already limited resources, and of course genetically swamp-out the extant populations that adapted to the particular location (e.g. the lack of genetic differentiation between SF garter and California red-sided). I will add that all of these are valid concerns, but again, it all depends on a feedback loop to the wild population, and I still wonder just exactly how these animals could have gone from a zoo back into the wild without someone noticing the missing snakes. Further, this decision was not changed even after the wild populations experienced crashes due to unexpected mortality and continued poaching. I’ve learned over the years that logic often escapes people in positions of power, and some times you just have to let some things go and live to fight another battle, because ignorance and arrogance do not make good bedfellows, especially when that person is higher up on the pecking order than you are! I’ll leave it at that.

There were people that wanted to trans-locate individuals to parks etc. within the historical range of the SF Garter, and there were even a few that wanted to establish new populations completely outside the historical range of the species, but all of these ideas were shut down for one reason or another, and the snakes were never distributed to the private sector because it is illegal to do so without a permit process in place (they are endangered after all and thus covered under ESA and Lacey Act). As you pointed out, differentiating between CB and WC was impossible back then (remember PIT tags are really only about 10 years old, so they weren’t available back in the early 80’s when all this was at it’s peak, and the g-snake needs to be about 6mos old before you can avoid complications of tagging anyway), so very few permits were issued to possess outside of established zoos, and most of those were for educational institutions. And if you’re wondering why zoos did not push the issue and work toward obtaining permission to breed etc… I don’t know either, but I suspect it all comes down to gate receipts! A zoo will find all the resources in the world to breed any animal the public will pay to see (e.g. panda, gorilla, tiger etc.), but when it comes to the less “charismatic” species that will not draw a crowd, the resources are often unobtainable, which is a pet peeve of mine, and why you will often find that I am very critical of zoos and the nonsense they feed the public about being in existence solely for conservation when very little of what they actually do has anything to do with conservation beyond public education, and even then they feed the public with this feel good idea of captive propagation as a way to save species that just is not generally correct. However, I do try to be fair, and zoos have had some very successful captive breeding programs that have resulted in positive feedback to wild populations, which private CB programs have not had.

OK, I’ve said way too much already, so I’ll stop there, but I do want to bring this back to my central point (and this is for the larger audience, not really for Lisa). The SF garter in habitat was initially endangered due to habitat destruction, but the poaching that has occurred on a number of occasions since the protection of the remaining habitat was instituted has severely damaged the long-term viability and survival probability (which are two completely different concepts BTW) of this species due to the reduction in number of individuals (demographic stochasticity) and genetic diversity (genetic stochasticity). What I want to know is what kind of a person poaches and endangered animal from such a restricted habitat? The guys that got busted all those years ago said they were just trying to make the critters available for captive breeding efforts to conserve the species for the future (for those of you who want to express your moral outrage that these guys were busted, save it, cause they got busted selling the snakes for an outrageous amount of money, and they had no intentions of breeding them, it was all about the money, the story they gave was only after they got busted!). Does this rational sound familiar? I wonder what made those guys think they could get away with their crime, and keep a viable population going with no resources and no ability to recruit help (remember possession is a Felony) when the zoos could not even manage to do it?

I know there are a lot of us out there that probably could have done a whole lot better with the SF garter than either the Gov’t or zoos did, but that doesn’t make it right to violate the law, and it sure sends a bad message to all the young herpers out there that are hanging on our every word. When they hear adults thumbing their noses at law enforcement because the adults know better than the #*%# bozos that work for the Goberment, it plants a seed that can easily sprout into a poacher/smuggler, and that is not what I want my children growing up to be, do you? I want my children to learn that things can change if they stop complaining about a problem, roll up their sleeves, dive-in and try and fix things. It is important to teach our children that they may loose more battles than they win, especially under the current environmentally unfriendly administration, and there are periods where you may loose all the battles you fight, but the point is to do something besides sit on your duff and complain, and if you keep trying, you will win some battles. There are many ways to make a real difference such as the letter writing and petitions that are so popular on this forum, but you can also be more direct and serve on community boards, participate in the comment period on projects, or you can even jump into the belly of the beast and try and change things from the inside out (which is probably the most frustrating way to go, but I think has the greatest potential to effect change), but telling our children that we know better than the authorities only breeds an attitude of disrespect that can only lead to a negative result. Yep, I’m on my soap box again, but the herp community has a very bad reputation with wildlife law enforcement because of this pervasive attitude within the community that they know better than law enforcement officials and will do what ever they want despite the laws such as poaching animals from protected habitats, and worse, this attitude makes the job of people trying to make real change that much more difficult, but it all starts so easily with the planting of a few small seeds of ignorance and arrogance in a young mind. Think before you speak! And when you hear other herpers making the kinds of comments that you all know I’m talking about, call them on it, so the herp community as a whole will not be represented by a few loud mouthed jerks pretending to represent your views, because it will only hurt your hobby in the end, and frankly I am a little tired of those same people making my efforts to change the system that much harder, so if people would like to help me out in my efforts to change things, shut the loud mouths down before I give up and PETA shuts us all down for good!

Don’t worry about the literature Lisa, I know what a pain it is to pull the specific paper your looking for out of the pile, and besides, I’ve probably already got it buried in a file cabinet somewhere I think we are pretty much on the same page, but we’re just taking slightly different approaches to demonstrating very similar points. Thanks for a civil discussion Lisa!

Big Brother

Big Brother wrote:

"Unfortunately, the scenario of dead animals way over packed in crates continues to happen all the time. Since the Air Transport Regulations came out, the number of “dead shipments” has dropped, but there are still about 25% of the commercial animal shipments that come in over-packed with dead animals."

>>>Can you cite any proof that can prove 25% of shipments still come in over packed with dead animals?

Big Brother wrote:

"I hate to say it, cause I know your going to grimace Chris, but I think this is a case where we need to significantly increase the penalties for shippers who violate the Air Transport Regulations (and the USDA Regs) to make it more cost effective to ship animals in a sensible manor, than to pack crates full of critters and hope for the best cause if you loose the whole shipment it’s not a big loss (i.e. hit ‘em in the economics department, which is what drives the “dead shippers” in the first place)."

>>>Why increase the penalties when you claim they never inforce the laws and regulations?

Big Brother wrote:

"Ultimately, I think the best way to eliminate this problem is to eliminate the WC of exotic herps, and simply breed most right here in the US to supply the pet industry, but my guess is I’m in the minority on this opinion even though most breeders state this as their ultimate goal."

>>>You are right, you are in the minority. Like it or not, people will not tolerate having their freedoms taken away because some conservationist thinks his silly and unproven ideas are going to save the planet!! Extreme conservationist and other radical groups need to clean up their own backyards before criticizing others!!

Big Brother wrote:
"Unfortunately, the scenario of dead animals way over packed in crates continues to happen all the time. Since the Air Transport Regulations came out, the number of “dead shipments” has dropped, but there are still about 25% of the commercial animal shipments that come in over-packed with dead animals."

M5 wrote:
>>>Can you cite any proof that can prove 25% of shipments still come in over packed with dead animals?

My response:
This is an estimate based on my own personal observations. I’ve looked at probably 500 reptile shipments in the last five years or so, how many have you seen?

Big Brother wrote:
"I hate to say it, cause I know your going to grimace Chris, but I think this is a case where we need to significantly increase the penalties for shippers who violate the Air Transport Regulations (and the USDA Regs) to make it more cost effective to ship animals in a sensible manor, than to pack crates full of critters and hope for the best cause if you loose the whole shipment it’s not a big loss (i.e. hit ‘em in the economics department, which is what drives the “dead shippers” in the first place)."

M5 wrote:
>>>Why increase the penalties when you claim they never inforce the laws and regulations?

My response:
It is not that they never enforce the laws; it is they don’t have enough time to do it all, so you can only catch so many. If you only get caught once out of ten shipments and then only pay a small fine, you keep right on doing what your doing, but if you have to pay $10,000 for the one shipment you get caught on, that changes your whole perspective on just how much risk is involved!

Big Brother wrote:
"Ultimately, I think the best way to eliminate this problem is to eliminate the WC of exotic herps, and simply breed most right here in the US to supply the pet industry, but my guess is I’m in the minority on this opinion even though most breeders state this as their ultimate goal."

M5 wrote:
>>>You are right, you are in the minority. Like it or not, people will not tolerate having their freedoms taken away because some conservationist thinks his silly and unproven ideas are going to save the planet!! Extreme conservationist and other radical groups need to clean up their own backyards before criticizing others!!

My response:
Let’s put this on the other foot. You prove to me that your never-ending removal of animals from the wild for personal profit is going to have absolutely no impact on wild populations what so ever. I’m arguing for caution when it comes to destroying the environment, your arguing it is your right to destroy it. I’m arguing to conserve species, you’re arguing to exploit them. If you want to continue down that path fine, but don’t sit back and pat yourself on the back saying your conserving species by breeding them in your basement, because you’re not! I’ve been directly involved in five major species conservation programs, and the first thing we had to do in all five cases was stop habitat destruction, and the second thing we had to do was shut down poaching. All five species are now on the road to recovery, and there are hundreds of published journal articles chronicling similar success stories, so be very careful about who you say has unproven ideas unless your looking in a mirror at the time!

I’m a herper with over 35 years in this hobby arguing the best way to conserve species is in their natural habitat and not by breeding them in my basement and certainly not by continually removing them from the wild. Haven’t you figured it out yet? The only reason I am on this forum is because I am trying to “clean up my own backyard,” and people who refuse to recognize that the herp industry is damaging wild populations of herps and continue to rape the environment for personal profit makes me and every other herper out there guilty of collusion in that act, so my entire reason for commenting on this forum is to clean-up my own back yard!

Now, shall we get back to the topic and stop all this nonsense!?!

Big Brother

Big Brother wrote:

"This is an estimate based on my own personal observations. I’ve looked at probably 500 reptile shipments in the last five years or so, how many have you seen?"

>>>Like I thought, you can't prove it! I have seen hundreds of shipments and 98%+ were packed correctly. Why would the shipper packed them correctly? Simple answer, so they arrive healthy and alive so he can get paid for his animals that he shipped. If he over packs his shipment and they arrive dead, guess what? He does not get paid. Is that to hard for you to figure out?

p.s. i will respond to your other post when I have more time.

M5, you don’t like me very much do you?
I’m curious, have the shipments you’ve seen been assigned to a particular shipper, importer or friend? Have you looked at a cross section of shipments that come into a particular port as I have with out any real attachment to the individual shipments?

If a shipper packs 50 animals into a crate that cost him $2ea for the animals and $250 for the shipping, he only has to sell one animal out of the 50 for $350 to break even. Everything over that is pure profit, so at $2ea a shyster will jamb as many potential chunks of gold into a crate as he can get away with and still make a profit. You assume that every exporter has the best interests of the animals at heart, but I am sorry to say they all do not!

And just because I am sick of this argument being used against me all the time, YOU PROVE that 98% of the shipments you’ve seen were packed correctly!

Big Brother

So you `ve seen 500 shipments of reptiles over a 5yr period an average of over 3 shipments per day with a 25% DOA ratio.And where doe`s this occure pray tell? Miami is the port of entry that recives the largest number of live reptiles in the US. I could be wrong but I don`t belive that any of the wildlife inspecters there do an average of more then 3 reptile shipments a day year round.I`ll have to ask.Thats amazing.I`ve seen a number of large shipments A good cross section from various countries of export and can safely say your numbers are wayyyyyyyyyyyyy off. Your tale of the evil exporter enslaving children to do his dirty work as ridiculous as that was looks good by comparison. I`d have to say in the world of anonymous crime fighters your doing Batman and Superman I great disservice

The picture is of a shipment of caninus and is very typical of the care that go`s into packing animals for export. By the way 100% live arrival. No surprise. Ernie Eison

Ernie,

You must really not want anyone or anything to interfere with your ability to exploit wild populations of herps for personal profit, to put so much effort into trying to make me out to be a bad guy for calling it like I see it, and I never said all of the 500 or so shipments I have seen were here in the US. The problem is a global one, and it is certainly a whole lot larger than you seem to realize, so I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one ‘cause I’m worried about your blood pressure!

Have a Nice DayJ

Big Brother

Hey Ernie,
You might want to check out:

* Shipping disaster......looking for possible reasons why? - chriscook, Wed Feb 25 20:38:47 2004

over on the monitor forum for some independent proof that animals still die intransit.

I guess you haven't seen the whole picture after all?

BB

Big Brother wrote:

"Unfortunately, the scenario of dead animals way over packed in crates continues to happen all the time. Since the Air Transport Regulations came out, the number of “dead shipments” has dropped, but there are still about 25% of the commercial animal shipments that come in over-packed with dead animals."

I also would be interested in what port this occurs in and within the time frame of 2-3 years has there been a decrease in mortality as well.